New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

[Yetanfou]

I don't remember reading of anyone successfully using an Intel SSD with an IDE adapter.

I don't know about Windows, but on Linux I have no problems with TRIM on an Intel (520 series, 120 GB) SSD through an 'ebay-special' PATA-SATA adapter. For those interested in the gritty details, here is the relevant output for the hdparm -I (that is a capital i, 'Detailed/current information directly from drive') command:

Code: Select all

ATA device, with non-removable media
	Model Number:       INTEL SSDSC2CW120A3                     
...
	Firmware Revision:  400i    
...
Commands/features:
	Enabled	Supported:
...
	   *	Data Set Management TRIM supported (limit 1 block)
	   *	Deterministic read data after TRIM

The drive fits in the drive bay with the adapter plugged between drive and motherboard. There is no need (nor space) for a drive cage but you'll need to move the optional black plastic distance ring from the top of the drive to the bottom to get the connectors to align. Use a drive bay lid from a T42 (minus the 'p') and you should be set, alternatively adapt the existing T42p lid by removing the extraneous metal and plastic bits. When pulling out the drive, the adapter stays in place in the PATA socket on the motherboard, effectively turning the T42p into a SATA-capable machine.

I used this adapter: http://www.ebay.com/itm/SATA-Female-to- ... 0794425758?



I ordered three of them, one of them arrived with a loose component in the little plastic bag. As I have an SMD rework station I'll just solder it back in place, but it does make you wonder about the 'QC passed|OK' sticker.

There is a jumper on the adapter, probably a master/slave option. This jumper (which is installed on new adapters) needs to be removed and the pins need to be bent down for the drive to work and fit in a T42p, with the jumper in place the drive light just stays lit and the drive is not recognised.

With this drive in place, the T42p boots in a few seconds (after the BIOS delay) to the display manager/login screen. It did not do any speed tests, the thing is fast and that is enough.

Total expenditure to get this T42p to accept SATA drives: 23 Swedish kronor (about 2.5€, $3 in US dollars). Not bad.

[coors]

@automobus The Aleratec frame has 11 holes. 2x on each side and 7x more on the back. Here's an image:


@ajkula66 I put the Aleratec adapter in the T41s caddy and it went right in, no problem. As for XP being non-friendly with SSD, do you know of any work arounds or should I be thinking Win-7 instead?


@GACrabill I'm fairly certain that I read somewhere that SLC drives don't need garbage collection, so is TRIM really needed with this Intel 313 mSATA drive?

@Yetanfou Thanks for pointing out that interesting option and for opening my eyes to the Intel 520 SATA SSD. Would you have a benchmark that you can share?

[Yetanfou]

@Yetanfou Thanks for pointing out that interesting option and for opening my eyes to the Intel 520 SATA SSD. Would you have a benchmark that you can share?

I did not run any specific benchmark software as the thing is 'fast enough' to my liking. A very rough estimate (using hdparm and dd) gives about 95 MB/s, both read and write on raw device access (>800 MB/s buffered but that is not that interesting...). The bottleneck is clearly the PATA interface, something which is not going to change. Nor does it have to, the gain would be marginal at best given that the CPU is barely able to keep up as it is...

[ajkula66]

@ajkula66 I put the Aleratec adapter in the T41s caddy and it went right in, no problem. As for XP being non-friendly with SSD, do you know of any work arounds or should I be thinking Win-7 instead?

I'd go with W7...it's time for XP to be laid to rest. Seriously.

[coors]

While researching the subject of TRIM I came across this very detailed SSD page.

Though it is a Linux driven piece it has some extremely important information that is useful for all platforms. If I had read this first I probably would not have ordered the older Intel 313 SLC mSATA drive, as I really have no idea whether it supports TRIM or not.

[ajkula66]

While researching the subject of TRIM I came across this very detailed SSD page.

Though it is a Linux driven piece it has some extremely important information that is useful for all platforms. If I had read this first I probably would not have ordered the older Intel 313 SLC mSATA drive, as I really have no idea whether it supports TRIM or not.

Well... If you're setting up the machine based on the linked page, your biggest problem will be the lack of AHCI setting which is not found in T4x BIOS. As for the 313, it does support TRIM AFAIK.

[coors]

You're right! I finally found, on Intels 313 spec. sheet, that the 313 does indeed support TRIM. I couldn't be more pleased.

[coors]

Here's the benchmark for this T41 using the 60GB Hitachi Travelstar 7200rpm HDD w/ Win-XP:



Here's this T41's benchmark using 24GB Intel 313 mSATA SSD w/ Win-XP:



As far as I know neither of these drives is aligned. I tried several times to align the SSD using GParted, but if I aligned the partition and then tried to install XP without letting XP's setup format it to NTFS, it was already formatted to NTFS with GParted, then after copying some files and restarting it would not boot to complete the installation.
Since TRIM is not supported in XP, I'm running the Intel Toolbox ap. "Optimizer", weekly, to see how it goes. I'll be reading up more on disk-alignment and ways to optimize XP running on SSD. I may end up putting Linux on here eventually, especially since distros are supposed to support TRIM, but for now I want to really see how bad XP works on SSD.

[ajkula66]

I may end up putting Linux on here eventually, especially since distros are supposed to support TRIM, but for now I want to really see how bad XP works on SSD.

Nice improvement. You're in luck because a SLC drive will take much more of a beating than a MLC - let alone a TLC - one before the performance starts degrading...

[coors]

...a SLC drive will take much more of a beating than a MLC - let alone a TLC - one before the performance starts degrading...

This agrees 100% with all that I read/gathered before buying the SLC mSATA drive. I forgot to add that I had swapped the PM 755 2.0GHz processor for a PM 765 2.1GHz, before installing the Intel 313, operating system, etc. So that may have affected the numbers, too.

[KrypteX]

Guys, I think I've found how to slave-mod the JMicron JM20330 bridge found in the mSATA-ZIF and other SATA-IDE adapters.
According to Section 5.5, page 19 of the JMicron JM20330 manual, https://mega.co.nz/#!p0kgSZrT!hwWPU2hXL ... dosg4-JU9I the SATA-IDE bridge is in Host Bridge Mode 110 (PIN20 and PIN19 both = 1, while PIN18 = 0).

PIN #33 called MSSEL (Master/Slave Selection) is connected to 0 via the 0-ohm resistor, see here:
https://mega.co.nz/#!w8swxTTS!hgNqheGrx ... MeIQTcOIww

Because the adapter is set to Master from factory, it means this is Device 0 mode as specified in the manual.

Setting PIN #33 to 1 should put the bridge in Device 1 mode (i.e. Slave). The problem is that the manual does not have a complete pin listing and it doesn't state how to specifically set Device 1 mode. I can only assume it can be accomplished by removing that 0-ohm resistor, but this is pure speculation on my part...

What do you guys think ?

[KrypteX]

The problems with Intel SSDs when using an IDE-to-microSata adapter and Win7 w/ TRIM have been discussed in this forum. The same problem may also exist when using Intel SSDs with an IDE-to-mSata adapter with Win7 w/ TRIM.

As long as you never plan to use TRIM with an Intel SSD connected to an IDE adapter, you will hopefully be okay.

I don't remember reading of anyone successfully using an Intel SSD with an IDE adapter.

Then remember my results ! Here is the link to my previous post in this thread: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 90#p733967

I will re-iterate that TRIM being passed over the SATA-IDE bridge depends on the compatibility between the bridge chip itself and the SSD controller, and not on the adapter or SSD brand, per se.

The SATA-IDE adapters on the market use various bridge chipsets: Sunplus SPIF223A, JMicron JM20330, Marvell 88SA8040 (SATA 1.5 Gb/s) and Marvell 88SA8052 (SATA 3.0 Gb/s).

--- Sunplus doesn't pass TRIM, it's the most problematic of all. Unfortunately, a lot of adapters use this chip.

--- JM20330 is OK with Samsung and Marvell controllers (found in Crucial/Micron and some Plextor/Lite-On SSDs), but doesn't pass TRIM to the Intel PC29AS21BA0 controller found in the G2 (Intel X25-M) and G3 (Intel 320) SSDs from Intel. There are also issues (freezes, BSOD) with SandForce controllers, but not with all firmware versions of those (e.g.: The SandForce-based OCZ Nocti is OK with firmware 2.15, but not with 2.22 or 2.25 - tested myself. A few posts back there is a report of TRIM failure of SF-based Intel 525 with JM20330 and then a success report of SF-based Intel 520 SSD, seemingly in conjunction with a JM20330 chip). So it's more of a "hit-or-miss" situation with JMicron JM20330 and TRIM.

--- The Marvell bridges, on the other hand, play well with most SSD controllers out there. I've tried several Intel and SandForce controller-based SSDs in a PATA-SATA optical bay caddy from Fenvi with Marvell 88SA8040 chip and it passes TRIM perfectly fine. For example, the Aleratec mSATA to IDE 2.5 adapter has the Marvell 88SA8052 inside and the users are reporting that TRIM is passed correctly: http://www.amazon.com/Aleratec-mSATA-Sp ... B00HZT4CFS

[Johan]

The Marvell bridges, on the other hand, play well with most SSD controllers out there. I've tried several Intel and SandForce controller-based SSDs in a PATA-SATA optical bay caddy from Fenvi with Marvell 88SA8040 chip and it passes TRIM perfectly fine. For example, the Aleratec mSATA to IDE 2.5 adapter has the Marvell 88SA8052 inside and the users are reporting that TRIM is passed correctly: http://www.amazon.com/Aleratec-mSATA-Sp ... B00HZT4CFS

KrypteX: Very, very interesting news; thanks for sharing!

Question: You mention above (marked in red, bold, by me) that you have tried several Intel SSD's in a caddy using the Marvell 88SA8040 chip. As mentioned earlier in this thread, the Lycom/Addonics/Aleratec/DeLock/Kuroutoshikou etc. adapter uses a Marvell controller (the 88SA8052-NNC2) which is a faster (SATA 3.0 Gb/s) version of the 88SA8040 (SATA 1.5 Gb/s). Could you please share what specific Intel SATA SSD's you have tried in the 88SA8040-caddy, and whether you have benchmarks available?

One reason for asking is that I have long been tempted to get an Intel 525 mSATA SSD (e.g. the SSDMCEAC120B3) that is mentioned in this post, for use in the Lycom/Addonics/Aleratec/DeLock/Kuroutoshikou etc. adapter because of the Intel 525 is being reported to be by far the fastest mSATA SSD I have yet seen in a T42/p!

Johan

[RealBlackStuff]

Very strange!
That same Marvell 88SA8040 chip is used in the T43/p to convert from SATA to PATA!

[KrypteX]

Very strange!
That same Marvell 88SA8040 chip is used in the T43/p to convert from SATA to PATA!

True that !

[KrypteX]

The Marvell bridges, on the other hand, play well with most SSD controllers out there. I've tried several Intel and SandForce controller-based SSDs in a PATA-SATA optical bay caddy from Fenvi with Marvell 88SA8040 chip and it passes TRIM perfectly fine. For example, the Aleratec mSATA to IDE 2.5 adapter has the Marvell 88SA8052 inside and the users are reporting that TRIM is passed correctly: http://www.amazon.com/Aleratec-mSATA-Sp ... B00HZT4CFS

Question: You mention above (marked in red, bold, by me) that you have tried several Intel SSD's in a caddy using the Marvell 88SA8040 chip. As mentioned earlier in this thread, the Lycom/Addonics/Aleratec/DeLock/Kuroutoshikou etc. adapter uses a Marvell controller (the 88SA8052-NNC2) which is a faster (SATA 3.0 Gb/s) version of the 88SA8040 (SATA 1.5 Gb/s). Could you please share what specific Intel SATA SSD's you have tried in the 88SA8040-caddy, and whether you have benchmarks available?

One reason for asking is that I have long been tempted to get an Intel 525 mSATA SSD (e.g. the SSDMCEAC120B3) that is mentioned in this post, for use in the Lycom/Addonics/Aleratec/DeLock/Kuroutoshikou etc. adapter because of the Intel 525 is being reported to be by far the fastest mSATA SSD I have yet seen in a T42/p!
Johan

Johan, I have been using two Marvell 88SA8040-based IDE-SATA optical bay caddies, both from Fenvi. A 9.5 mm version in HP Compaq 2510p (which has a native IDE port on ICH8M) and another 12.7 mm version in Toshiba A200 (also native IDE port on ICH8M).
These Marvell-based caddies are rock solid for me (as opposed to several previous caddies, which were based on Sunplus SPIF223A - those are awful when TRIM is enabled). I've tested several SSDs in the Marvell 88SA8040 caddies, in both laptops under Windows 7 x64, with TRIM enabled and no issues whatsoever.
A list of the SSDs that I tried successfully:
- Crucial M4 128 GB (Marvell controller, firmware 000F)
- Micron C400 256 GB (Marvell, latest HP firmware)
- Micron C300 128 GB (Marvell, firmware 0007)
- Samsung 470 64 GB (Samsung, latest firmware)
- Samsung PM830 128 GB (Samsung controller, latest Dell firmware)
- Intel 330 180 GB (SandForce, firmware 335t and 335u)
- Sandisk Extreme 240 GB (SandForce, latest firmware)
- Intel X25-M G2 80 GB (Intel, firmware 02M3)
- Intel 320 G3 160 GB (Intel, latest firmware)

Note 1: None of the SSDs above worked with TRIM enabled in any of the Sunplus caddies.
Note 2: Regarding the JMicron JM20330 controller, that's a mixed bag -- I've written in detail a few posts back about that one (the bottom line for JM20330: stay away from Intel controller- and SandForce controller-based SSDs or use Windows XP or Windows 7 with TRIM disabled).

From my experience, I can say that you can't go wrong with the Intel 525 SSD and a Marvell-based adapter. I would, however, go with something else: Samsung 830/840 EVO, Plextor/Lite-On M5/M6, Crucial/Micron M500/M550 or even an M4/C400 would do the job - I've used the Crucial M4 for a long time (both in 2.5" and mSATA formats), fast drive and power consumption is very low. I'd stay away from SF controllers... Anyhow, there is no better IDE-SATA bridge chip than Marvell out there at the moment. Oh, disclaimer: I don't work for Marvell !!

[coors]

After reading Kryptex's post about Ultra Bay Slim caddy controllers, I did a benchmark of Win-XP on a Hitachi 5400rpm 160GB SATA drive in my no-name Ultra Bay Slim caddy/adapter. This computer is a T41. Here is that result:



Compare to Main Bay with Hitachi 7200rpm 60GB PATA drive:



Both of these drives are error free. Why are the Ultra Bay Slim caddy numbers much better, overall? I thought that the Main Bay was supposed to be faster.

[KrypteX]

I guess that's the max linear speed (~ 35 MB/s) of the older 60 GB HDD... The SATA drive is simply newer, faster.

[axur-delmeria]

The larger drive has a higher data density (more GB per square inch of magnetic platter), so having a greater throughput is not unexpected.

[coors]

Thank you for the responses to my question! I was thinking about getting an Aleratec mSATA to SATA adapter for putting an Intel 313 mSATA drive in the Ultra Bay Slim caddy for benchmarking Win XP, so as to compare with the result I obtained from the same drive in the Main Bay, via Aleratec adapter. But this would probably show little to no difference, correct!?

[KrypteX]

Thank you for the responses to my question! I was thinking about getting an Aleratec mSATA to SATA adapter for putting an Intel 313 mSATA drive in the Ultra Bay Slim caddy for benchmarking Win XP, so as to compare with the result I obtained from the same drive in the Main Bay, via Aleratec adapter. But this would probably show little to no difference, correct!?

Not really. SSDs have much better 4K performance (with small files) than HDDs. Sequential values will probably be the same, though, limited by the IDE interface. OTOH, I don't really think I've properly understood your question/inquiry... Sorry if I haven't.

[coors]

@KrypteX Thanks, for your reply! I'm sorry, yes my last question is a bit confusing. I have already bench tested an Intel 313 SLC mSATA drive, via Aleratec mSATA to PATA adapter in the Main Bay:



Here's that result:



I'm wondering if getting an mSATA to SATA adapter, to use with the same Intel 313 mSATA drive, via the Ultra-Bay-Slim caddy, would just give the same result as above.. or would it be better or worse?

[KrypteX]

Should give the same result if the IDE-SATA bridge chip in the caddy is the same with the one in Aleratec (Marvell 88SA8052 with SATA 3.0 Gb/s). Truth be told, the only Marvell chip I've encountered in an optical caddy is 88SA8040 (SATA 1.5 Gb/s). So there might be a slight speed difference, but probably not much between these two. The SSD might be a little bit faster in Aleratec than mounted in a standard Marvell-based optical caddy (via mSATA-SATA adapter).

[coors]

@Kryptex Thanks for your reply! I have an Intel X25-E Extreme 64GB SATA-II SSD on it's way. I'll load XP on it and run a benchmark. Perhaps it's performance result will help reveal which controller this UltraBay-Slim caddy has... or is there another way to tell? Here's an image:

[automobus]

Perhaps it's performance result will help reveal which controller this UltraBay-Slim caddy has... or is there another way to tell?

Performance is no way to reveal which translator chip is used. Sunplus SATALink SPIF223A has a fingerprint: it modifies IDENTIFY DEVICE reserved words 236-254.

There is one way to find-out what is inside: take a screwdriver, remove screws, open it up, look inside (with your eyes or digicam set to macro mode).

[coors]

@automobus Thanks, very much, for your help! Here's what I have:



I want one with the Marvel chip, so I'll be looking for that now.

[KrypteX]

You can check either physically or with software.

Physically: Usually the caddy PCBs marked with "e-Sun" have Sunplus chipsets. Or just totally unmount the PCB and check the chip itself.

With software: Use CrystalDiskInfo. For my SATA 3.0 Gb/s HDD in the optical caddy with Marvell 88SA8040 chip (1.5 Gb/s), it says Transfer Mode: SATA/150 | SATA/300. So yeah, the HDD is connected to the IDE-SATA bridge in SATA 1.5 Gb/s mode, even if the HDD knows 3.0 Gb/s. That's why I've been looking for an optical caddy with Marvell 88SA8052 chip (3.0 Gb/s), similar to the one found in the Aleratec IDE-mSATA adapter, but no luck until now.

[coors]

@KrypteX Thanks! I stopped one screw short of flipping the board over and examining the controller:



I'll check out CrystalDiskInfo too.

[KrypteX]

I wouldn't try to use TRIM on any SSD mounted in that Sunplus caddy. Yes, WinXP is a safe choice.
However, if the Intel X25-E is a G1 version -- it doesn't support TRIM -- it would probably work well with Windows 7, too.
OTOH, if it's G2 -- it supports TRIM -- it will have issues in Win 7 or later OS with TRIM enabled. The problem is that Sunplus doesn't pass TRIM and freezes the system.

[coors]

@KrypteX Yes, a big screw-up on my part. No TRIM and no Intel Optimizer support either, as it's 50nm.

Edit: Well, the Intel X25-E Extreme 64gb SATA II, 3gb/s, drive showed up yesterday. I wanted to see how it ran on a true 3GB/S system, so I loaded it in my 2009 Gateway LT31 with XP and it benchmarked great! I only need Win XP on one machine, so I did a secure-erase and loaded Elementary-OS on it, in the Gateway netbook, and I couldn't be happier! So this drive will remain in the netbook and I'll order another for the T41. I can live with idle-time garbage-collection. Like the post at the very top of this page, I have ordered some of the PATA-SATA connectors/adapters so that I can run one of these in the main bay of the T41. I'll just use the UltraBay-Slim caddy that I have already and an HDD for storage. As for the Aleratec-PATA-Adapter/Intel 313 mSATA drive, it now resides in an old, 2005, HP Pavilion DV5000, which is PATA too.