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New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

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dandreye
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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#271 Post by dandreye » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:58 am

GACrabill wrote: Based on the prices I see on eBay, I wouldn't consider either the PM800 or PM830.
I would look for an msata Samsung 850 EVO at 120GB to keep the SSD upgrade expense as low as possible ...
850 EVO looks great at a glance - much appreciated ) With so high 4k R/W speeds seen in its reviews the bottleneck (if any) will likely be the adapter itself unless my T42 platform is even slower.
X1G1 3460-1F4, 2x X61s 7667-34G, X61s 7667-Y24, X61s 7667-WQ8, X61s 7666-AA5, X61s 7666-34G, X60s 1702-W96, T43 2669-YJ6, T42 2373-Q91

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#272 Post by GACrabill » Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:57 pm

dandreye wrote:850 EVO looks great at a glance .... With so high 4k R/W speeds seen in its reviews the bottleneck (if any) will likely be the adapter itself unless my T42 platform is even slower.
The speeds seen in reviews are normally at Sata-3 speeds.

Your T42 PATA speed is 133 ..... Sata-1 is 150, Sata-2 is 300, Sata-3 is 600.
There's a big difference between Pata speeds and Sata-3 speeds.

An SSD in a T40-T42 will change the laptop from being old-and-slow to being actually useable again .... but its speeds will not be the speeds that you see in reviews. The difference in speeds between a new, fast msata SSD and an older, slower msata SSD in a T42 w/adapter may not even be noticeable to the user.

To make the SSD upgrade expense even lower, you may wish to consider older, used msata SSDs ... ie. Crucial M4, Toshiba THNSNF128GMCS or THNSNH128GMCS, etc.

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#273 Post by dandreye » Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:27 pm

GACrabill wrote: The speeds seen in reviews are normally at Sata-3 speeds.
Your T42 PATA speed is 133 ..... Sata-1 is 150, Sata-2 is 300, Sata-3 is 600.
There's a big difference between Pata speeds and Sata-3 speeds.
Do you mean that even 4k QD=1 R/W speeds ca. 30MB/s / 130Mb/s resp. seen in one of the reviews cannot be achieved with UDMA7/SATA-I and are only reachable with SATA-II/III? As to several hundred MB/s sequential speeds, I doubt they would matter anyway because of the bottlenecks elsewhere in the platform...
GACrabill wrote: To make the SSD upgrade expense even lower, you may wish to consider older, used msata SSDs ... ie. Crucial M4, Toshiba THNSNF128GMCS or THNSNH128GMCS, etc.
That's the reason I was looking at PM800/PM830 initially: those "pulled from a brand-new laptop" by 100% positive feedback sellers are still available from time to time. Btw anything fundamentally wrong with them assuming adequate pricing? Still following a cheap used PM800 on Ebay for instance. Will check the ones you've mentioned too meanwhile.
X1G1 3460-1F4, 2x X61s 7667-34G, X61s 7667-Y24, X61s 7667-WQ8, X61s 7666-AA5, X61s 7666-34G, X60s 1702-W96, T43 2669-YJ6, T42 2373-Q91

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#274 Post by GACrabill » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:10 pm

dandreye wrote:
GACrabill wrote: The speeds seen in reviews are normally at Sata-3 speeds.
Your T42 PATA speed is 133 ..... Sata-1 is 150, Sata-2 is 300, Sata-3 is 600.
There's a big difference between Pata speeds and Sata-3 speeds.
Do you mean that even 4k QD=1 R/W speeds ca. 30MB/s / 130Mb/s resp. seen in one of the reviews cannot be achieved with UDMA7/SATA-I and are only reachable with SATA-II/III? As to several hundred MB/s sequential speeds, I doubt they would matter anyway because of the bottlenecks elsewhere in the platform...
Here's a couple "4k QD=1 R/W speeds" :
- Plextor M5M 256GB msata SSD, T40 w/adapter ... R=18.57, W=26.93
- Toshiba THNSNF128GMCS 128GB msata SSD, T40 w/adapter ... R=14.74, W=17.79
- Intel 310 msata SSD, T41 w/adapter ... R=16.30, W=21.53
- Crucial M550 128GB msata SSD, T42 w/adapter ... R=21.316, W=37.502

Actually, I find the "130Mb/s" for "4k QD=1 W speed" almost hard to believe based on the following :
- Plextor M5M 256GB msata SSD, Dell M6700 Sata-3 adapter in HDD-bay ... R=26.50, W=48.06

This post by Johan lists a number of msata SSDs which have worked in adapters : http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 27#p768427

There may be other 'used' options in that list for your search.
Please make sure that the PM800 that you are watching is an 'mSata' ... and not a 1.8" 'microSata'.

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#275 Post by dandreye » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:34 pm

GACrabill wrote: Actually, I find the "130Mb/s" for "4k QD=1 W speed" almost hard to believe based on the following :
- Plextor M5M 256GB msata SSD, Dell M6700 Sata-3 adapter in HDD-bay ... R=26.50, W=48.06
I was likewise surprised to see so much higher ones in AnandTech's review and attributed it to something that V-NAND TLC memory design or some other PM850 EVO feature brings along:
http://images.anandtech.com/doci/9023/8 ... _4KBrr.png
http://images.anandtech.com/doci/9023/8 ... _4KBrw.png
GACrabill wrote: Please make sure that the PM800 that you are watching is an 'mSata' ... and not a 1.8" 'microSata'.
It looks like this one - no plastic with microSATA keys at the connector: http://tssdr1.thessdreview1.netdna-cdn. ... SSD-21.jpg

Thank you!

Update: Samsung 850 EVO mSATA SSD test results in a T42p with Aleratec adapter show much more realistic 4k QD=1 R/W figures of 19/31MB/s resp.:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=119756
X1G1 3460-1F4, 2x X61s 7667-34G, X61s 7667-Y24, X61s 7667-WQ8, X61s 7666-AA5, X61s 7666-34G, X60s 1702-W96, T43 2669-YJ6, T42 2373-Q91

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#276 Post by dandreye » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:40 am

Back to the main topic of this thread (adapters)... I've run into confusion around 5V vs 3.3V while going through hundreds of various mSATA-IDE adapter adverts. For instance this one, probably with the best voltage explanation I've come across: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291558220251

"Features:
Board Szie: 57(L)x40(W)x6.5mm(H)
3.3 Volt Mini PCI-e SSD (mSATA Module) Support.
This card can only connect with 1.8" 3.3v ide interface, if connects with the 2.5" ide interface ,the chip will be burning.
Matching with msata ssd solid hard disk to replace 1.8" ide hard disk ,and connects to your Thinkpad X40 X41."

Do I get it right that being electrically incompatible, those 3.3V 1.8" IDE connectors mate with 5V 2.5" ones too mechanically, meaning any adapter with the former one will die upon plugging into T4x laptops, which I suppose have 5V 2.5" IDE? And what about the other way round, e.g. if an adapter with 5V 2.5" IDE connector is plugged into X40/41, which I suppose have 3.3V 1.8" IDE? So different voltages in adapter adverts imply IDE and so have nothing to do with voltage(s) in the mSATA connector in such adapters?

Just found a bit more about it although the way I understand its Google translation is that both X4x and T4x are 5V:
"Important: Different adapters variants!
Modern SSDs with mSATA form factor using a voltage of 3.3V, conventional 2.5" IDE hard drives on the other hand 5V. Accordingly, should a mSATAtoIDE adapter and the "downregulation" of the voltage from 5V to 3.3V guarantee for the Thinkpads T4x model. (possibly also the R5x and X3x Series so far untested). So the 5V version of the adapter must be selected for the models of x4x (t) series there is a 3.3V version of the adapter, because these models "from the first" work with a voltage of 3.3V to the IDE port. Alternatively, the voltage converter from 5V variant with a soldering iron to remove.
"
http://thinkwiki.de/MSATA_to_IDE_Adapte ... _ThinkPads

Could anyone please explain it all nicely, so that it's clear even to those w/o eletrical engineering b/g?
X1G1 3460-1F4, 2x X61s 7667-34G, X61s 7667-Y24, X61s 7667-WQ8, X61s 7666-AA5, X61s 7666-34G, X60s 1702-W96, T43 2669-YJ6, T42 2373-Q91

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#277 Post by rkawakami » Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:43 am

Okay, I'll take a stab at it. First, a little OT backstory...

This is the way I understand things when it comes to the X40/X41 hard drive main bay IDE interface and the drives used therein:

- The X41 uses the same, standard 44-pin IDE interface that every modern laptop IDE hard drive uses. By that I mean the pins on a 1.8" hard drive have the same functionality as the corresponding pins that are on a 2.5" drive. Physically, if you had the room, there's nothing preventing you from plugging in a 2.5" drive inside the X40 or a 1.8" drive in a T41. Note I've not said anything about voltage so far, just that the pins are arranged in the same order and there's no special pin key or case design that stops you from swapping drives. There's no such thing as a "5V 2.5" IDE connector" or "3.3V 1.8" IDE connector; it's the laptop's interface that dictates what the voltage is.
- The voltage supplied by the X40/X41 motherboards on the main bay IDE interface is 3.3V. I've not physically measured the voltage as I'm relying on some engineering documents to tell me so.
- The factory Hitachi 1.8" drives (C4K60) are dual-voltage capable: 3.3V AND 5.0V. This means that if you can physically plug those drives into an IDE interface which normally accepts 2.5" drives, it will work there. I have just verified this by plugging in a C4K60 drive into an Ultrabay HDD adapter and mounting it in an A31p. Windows detected the drive correctly and allow access to the files on the drive.
- A few days ago I received two of those inexpensive (less than $16 for two), Chinese-sourced mSATA-to-IDE adapters which was specifically advertised as being an X40/X41 HD replacement. The adapter does function correctly and allows the use of an mSATA storage device, but the "case" that was provided prevents the drive from being fully inserted into the X41's IDE connector. On top of that, the screw holes which are supposed to allow the case/adapter assembly to be bolted to the standard HD caddy are too big for the standard screws (EDIT* Note that I'm talking about the screws used with the 1.8" drives. Screws meant to be used with 2.5" drives WILL fit properly. They will self-thread into the plastic case until you've installed/removed them too many times and end up striping the threads of the hole.) So I simply mounted the bare adapter board in the drive bay and packed some paper around it for stability.
- This mSATA adapter has a tiny switch that allows selection of 3.3V or 5V. Meaning, that is supposed to match what the laptop's IDE connector is providing. For the X40/X41, it needs to be set to 3.3V. If you were to use it in a laptop as a 2.5" HD replacement (T41), then that switch needs to be put into the 5V position.

So, to get back OT...

Yes, while the 1.8" and 2.5" IDE laptop interfaces are physically compatible but do have different voltages being provided, if you have an mSATA-to-IDE adapter that was only designed for 3.3V (like the one you referenced from eBay), then plugging it into a 2.5" system (ala, T41) will probably result in "poof". If you look closely at the pictures in that auction, there is an outline for a device which is marked "U1" (next to the label saying input 3.3V). That would be a 3.3V voltage regulator device. It steps down the 5V input from a laptop's IDE interface that was designed to use 2.5" drives, to the 3.3V that mSATA requires.

TL;DR: mSATA-to-IDE adapters must always provide 3.3V for the mSATA device. Well designed, universal adapters will have some way of selecting the input (laptop's IDE interface) voltage; 3.3V or 5V. If there is NO voltage selection, proceed with caution.

ref: https://www.hgst.com/sites/default/file ... C_spec.pdf
ref: http://www.ebay.com/itm/321762518210
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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#278 Post by dandreye » Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:17 am

rkawakami:

Many thanks: all clear now. Had they written something like "5V/3.3V at IDE connector" in all those adverts there would be less confusion )

Got myself these 2 to play with for a start:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2015-New ... 45895.html
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Good-Sal ... 89344.html
X1G1 3460-1F4, 2x X61s 7667-34G, X61s 7667-Y24, X61s 7667-WQ8, X61s 7666-AA5, X61s 7666-34G, X60s 1702-W96, T43 2669-YJ6, T42 2373-Q91

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#279 Post by dandreye » Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:21 pm

The first experience with a Samsung PM830 (MZMPC128HBFU-000H1, Fw CXM12H1Q) mSATA SSD in the following JM20330-based adapter:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2015-New ... 45895.html

1) The SSD with the adapter in the primary HDD bay of a ThinkPad T42: Windows 7 installation from a DVD takes ages even compared to installing it onto an HDD and still fails mid-way (tried twice) although quite a bit of data appears to be successfully written onto the SSD during the course of installation

2) The SSD with the adapter in the secondary HDD bay and an HDD with Windows XP in primary bay: secondary IDE channel starts in DMA5 mode but as I try reading from the SSD there are long intermittent delays and the channel eventually switches to PIO mode. Uninstalling channel driver and rebooting PC to start from scratch returns it back to DMA5 and then everything repeats.

Assuming (1) may have something to do with TRIM relay at the adapter (recalling that workaround where Windows 7 is installed elsewhere and then with TRIM disabled migrated onto the SSD) is there any obvious explanation for (2)? Does T42 caddy have another bridge by chance, conflicting with the adapter's one? I don't understand why a normal SSD read operation initiated by Windows XP (which I believe has no TRIM support) running on a different disk is still affected.

Unfortunately I haven't got an mSATA-SATA adapter at hand to verify the SSD alone w/o the bridge in a SATA PC although the advert claims it to have been tested, so it should be fine.
X1G1 3460-1F4, 2x X61s 7667-34G, X61s 7667-Y24, X61s 7667-WQ8, X61s 7666-AA5, X61s 7666-34G, X60s 1702-W96, T43 2669-YJ6, T42 2373-Q91

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#280 Post by automobus » Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:35 am

dandreye wrote:Does T42 caddy have another bridge by chance?
I am assuming it does not. There is one way to find-out what is inside: take a screwdriver, remove screws, open it up, look inside (with your eyes or digicam set to macro mode).
dandreye wrote:Assuming (1) may have something to do with TRIM … I don't understand why a normal SSD read operation … is still affected.
Your assumption is false, not founded upon firmly understood concepts. Sunplus SATALink SPIF223A chokes on Data Set Management command (or "trim"), in abidance by its datasheet. JMicron JM20330 relays TRIM as well as the usual read and write commands.

Translation is not instantaneous: ATA to ATA translators have inherent hold-up time, delay. One might call it "latency". (I am never confident to use that word. I first saw it used in Internet game lobby, but I could not understand its meaning when I looked it up in a dictionary.) One might say, JM20330 performs slower than certain other bridges. Ask your Web spider of choice about JM20330 DMA errors.

Empirical evidence proves, no ata-ata bridge chip is perfect. I do not have categorical proof, so do not believe me.

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#281 Post by dandreye » Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:37 am

automobus:

Thanks for your replies.

> Ask your Web spider of choice about JM20330 DMA errors.
> http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 19#p707819

I actually read that thread besides a few others before asking - and that's exactly what reminded me about TRIM issues although one of my notes made while reading current thread in detail says JM20330 actually does support TRIM (and so does JMH330). I also recall seeing some posts reporting quite acceptable double digit read/write speeds with a JM20330-based adapter with a friendly (e.g. a non-Intel) SSD in it in a native PATA/IDE machine like T40/41/42, which is what encouraged me to give it a try. Perhaps these Chinese adapters aren't all the same indeed and I'm just unlucky with mine. In the worst case scenario Lycom ST-173-7 (with Marvell 88SA8052 chip being "the least imperfect" bridge) is selling here on Ebay UK - but treating it all like an interesting experiment / learning exercise I'd like to understand the root cause of my issues first.

What's the best way of taking whatever trace contains DMA comms (bus trace?) assuming I'll find further details of my DMA errors there, if any?
X1G1 3460-1F4, 2x X61s 7667-34G, X61s 7667-Y24, X61s 7667-WQ8, X61s 7666-AA5, X61s 7666-34G, X60s 1702-W96, T43 2669-YJ6, T42 2373-Q91

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#282 Post by automobus » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:58 am

Try some live Linux. Not that I endorse this one, but to get results quickly, you might as well get SystemRescueCd (http://www.sysresccd.org).

When you reach the shell, first run ( hdparm -I /dev/PM830 ; ) and report your drive firmware, so Johan can make a note of it. Then just to get the drive busy reading, something like ( pv < /dev/PM830 > /dev/null ; ). While pv is running, press left alt + left cursor arrow to switch into the kernel message console, and watch for disc read errors. (Press alt + right cursor arrow to return to the shell console.)

edit 2016-02-17 add: hdparm prints information obtained from drive, as drive presents its identity. Upgraded firmware might have been installed by system vendor (HPQ), corporate owner, individual user, refurbisher / "recovery" / eBay seller. So information printed on device label, is often not current/relevant.

edit 2015-03-06 fix link
Last edited by automobus on Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#283 Post by dandreye » Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:13 am

automobus:

Thank you,

- SSD Fw obtained from the drive is CXM12H1Q:
ATA device, with non-removable media
Model Number: SAMSUNG MZMPC128HBFU-000H1
Serial Number: S0Y8NYAD400023
Firmware Revision: CXM12H1Q
Transport: Serial, ATA8-AST, SATA 1.0a, SATA II Extensions, SATA Rev 2.5, SATA Rev 2.6, SATA Rev 3.0

- initial pv attempt ran error free, showing ca. 78MiB/s steady read speed commensurate with UDMA5 (ICH4-M max), no timeouts or any other issues, at least during a couple of minutes that I was watching it

- 4 DMA errors seen during another pv attempt after repartitioning the drive, namely 3 failed READ DMA commands with UDMA/100 followed by 1 with UDMA/66 over the first couple of minutes, and then no more until the end. Here's the one logged when UDMA/66 occurs:
Feb 18 00:25:18 sysresccd kernel: ata1: lost interrupt (Status 0x58)
Feb 18 00:25:18 sysresccd kernel: ata1: drained 65536 bytes to clear DRQ
Feb 18 00:25:18 sysresccd kernel: ata1.00: limiting speed to UDMA/66:PIO4
Feb 18 00:25:18 sysresccd kernel: ata1.00: exception Emask 0x0 SAct 0x0 SErr 0x0 action 0x6 frozen
Feb 18 00:25:18 sysresccd kernel: ata1.00: failed command: READ DMA
Feb 18 00:25:18 sysresccd kernel: ata1.00: cmd c8/00:00:3f:ed:21/00:00:00:00:00/e0 tag 0 dma 131072 in\x0a res 40/00:01:00:00:00/00:00:00:00:00/40 Emask 0x4 (timeout)
Feb 18 00:25:18 sysresccd kernel: ata1.00: status: { DRDY }
Feb 18 00:25:18 sysresccd kernel: ata1: soft resetting link
Feb 18 00:25:19 sysresccd kernel: ata1.00: configured for UDMA/66
Feb 18 00:25:19 sysresccd kernel: ata1.00: device reported invalid CHS sector 0
Feb 18 00:25:19 sysresccd kernel: ata1: EH complete


- yet another pv attempt ran error free at 78MiB/s average

Looks like my DMA errors are intermittent..
X1G1 3460-1F4, 2x X61s 7667-34G, X61s 7667-Y24, X61s 7667-WQ8, X61s 7666-AA5, X61s 7666-34G, X60s 1702-W96, T43 2669-YJ6, T42 2373-Q91

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#284 Post by dandreye » Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:48 am

I now have more or less meaningful test results to share for a used (1888 power-on hours) Samsung PM830 128GB mSATA SSD (MZMPC128HBFU) Fw CXM12H1Q in my ThinkPad T42 (i855PM chipset) with JM20330-based unbranded N-2507I mSATA-IDE44 adapter: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2015-New ... 45895.html

Windows 7 installation straight onto it just won't complete, so I had to install it onto an HDD first, disable TRIM there and then copy it across to the SSD using free AOMEI Backupper software that in particular nicely asks whether to align partitions the way required for SSD. The laptop now often gets stuck forever when booting, and once booted lags a bit all the time (or perhaps I want too much from this platform? it's way faster for sure than it was with HDD), occasionally freezing for several dozen seconds, so it's definitely not for use for anything serious - perhaps just as a netbook for surfing the Internet for pleasure. Assuming it all is mostly or entirely caused by disk operation errors I don't understand how my speed tests escaped unaffected looking at the figures reported:

- Sequential Read: 79MB/s as per Samsung Magician, 78MB/s as per AS SSD Benchmark, 82MB/s as per CDM303 and CDM512
- Sequential Write: 76MB/s as per Samsung Magician, 70MB/s as per AS SSD Benchmark, 75MB/s as per CDM303 and CDM512
- Random 4K QD=1 Read: 4305 IOPS as per Samsung Magician, 14MB/s as per AS SSD Benchmark, 16MB/s as per CDM303 and 0.6MB/s(!) as per CDM512
- Random 4K QD=1 Write: 7205 IOPS as per Samsung Magician, 29MB/s as per AS SSD Benchmark, 26MB/s as per CDM303 and 0.6MB/s(!) as per CDM512
- Random 4K QD=32/64 Read: 17MB/s as per AS SSD Benchmark, 18MB/s as per CDM303 and CDM512
- Random 4K QD=32/64 Write: 29MB/s as per AS SSD Benchmark, 30MB/s as per CDM303 and CDM512
- Access time Read/Write: 2-5ms / 0.135ms resp. as per AS SSD Benchmark


Side question: why do random 4K QD=1 R/W speeds reported by CDM v5.1.2 stand out so much? I repeated those a few times and it's always there.

Anyway, the main question is: how can I figure out the nature of those issues? If Lycom ST-173-3 doesn't help me get rid of them completely I cannot justify paying ca. $25 for it especially if I have to keep TRIM off (at least Xenomorph has TRIM off with his favourite SF2281-based SanDisk SSDs in that adapter). I'm currently awaiting a mSATA-SATA adapter to verify this SSD in a pure SATA environment to make sure it's not the SSD itself causing them although its SMART report generally looks good to me:
ID Cur Wor Thr RawValues(6) Attribute Name
01 200 200 __2 000000000000 Vendor Specific
05 100 100 _10 000000000000 Reallocated Sector Count
09 _99 _99 __0 000000000760 Power-on Hours
0C _98 _98 __0 0000000007D1 Power-on Count
AA _94 _94 _10 000000000600 Unused Reserved Block Count (Chip)
AB 100 100 _10 000000000000 Program Fail Count (Chip)
AC 100 100 _10 000000000000 Erase Fail Count (Chip)
AD _94 _94 _17 0000000000CE Wear Leveling Count
AE _99 _99 __0 00000000005C Unexpected Power Loss Count
B7 100 100 __1 000000000000 Runtime Bad Block (Total)
B8 100 100 _97 000000000000 Error Detection
BB 100 100 __0 000000000000 Uncorrectable Error Count
BC 100 100 __0 000000000000 Vendor Specific
BE _57 _47 __0 00000000002B Airflow Temperature
C4 253 253 __0 000000000000 Vendor Specific
C6 100 100 __0 000000000000 Off-Line Uncorrectable Error Count
C7 200 200 __0 00000000002D CRC Error Count



P.S. Could anyone please confirm if this particular SSD does any GC whatsoever on its own w/o TRIM? Some say it doesn't while some others say it does during low loads.
Last edited by dandreye on Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: dandreye's tests

#285 Post by automobus » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:28 pm

> I don't understand how my speed tests escaped unaffected

Because long sequential access is the best case scenario, easiest workload to put on the storage system. Thank you for your quality participation: full sentences, verbatim program output, and comprehendible questions. I do not have time to give a proper reply now, but I will tonight. One question for you: what test file size did you use? (CDM top-left drop-down menu)

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#286 Post by dandreye » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:37 pm

automobus:

Thanks in turn for responding ) Looks like this extremely useful thread isn't too active lately.

> Because long sequential access is the best case scenario

But 4K QD=1 speeds are not too bad as well for this platform, are they? I was hoping to get double digit figures and I got them.

> what test file size did you use? (CDM top-left drop-down menu)

1000MB in CDM v3.0.3 and 1GB in CDM v5.1.2 (both default ones).


Update 1: pv /dev/sda > /dev/null is now triggering a lot of DMA errors since its very start, UDMA5 > UDMA4 > UDMA3 downgrade and eventually pv failure:
pv: /dev/sda: read failed: Input/output error

An attempt to mount /dev/sda2 (main Windows partition) failed for some boot sector errors suggesting to run chkdsk /f. After starting the same pv CLI again I'm still seeing the same DMA errors, however there's been no booting issues since then.

Update 2:
I just dared re-enabling TRIM and then tested it by various means: TRIMcheck (WORKING now vs NOT WORKING before), SSDLife (Enabled now vs Disabled before), manual TRIM sending using Anvil's Storage Utilities, then rebooting, verifying TRIM is still enabled and doing the same again to be sure. At first everything was OK, in fact even Read Access time dropped from previously reported 2-5ms down to 0.21ms. Serious problems started later: it's now taking ages to boot every time, freezes and crashes (BSOD). Looks like these problems aren't triggered on a single TRIM command alone.
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Re: dandreye's tests

#287 Post by automobus » Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:45 pm

> I don't understand how my speed tests escaped unaffected

I had a theory, but it is disproved. If test file size was smaller than drive's large memory cache, then the random seek test could be serviced/met entirely from drive cache, with no waits for medium (NAND) access. Test file size 1 Go is greater than SSD's cache, so my guess is wrong. :??:

> how can I figure out the nature of those issues?

I do not know. I have another guess. Maybe your SSD can complete lots of reads, quickly, and lots of writes, quickly. So its random seek time of just (reads xor writes) is short enough that most/all operations finish in time. Maybe under a mixed write&read workload, while some write operations are cached and not yet committed to backing store (NAND), some read operations take slightly longer than usual. Those read operations, delayed by elevated cache utilisation, result in DMA timeout.

> Could anyone please confirm if this particular SSD does any GC whatsoever on its own

Of course, it is practically an absolute must for BLC/MLC NAND drive. A more apposite/pertinent question is "Does it do background (or offline) garbage collection?", and the answer is, almost certainly, yes. Samsung firmwares feature background GC since 2009, as in later-revision "PM800".

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Re: dandreye's tests

#288 Post by dandreye » Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:14 pm

automobus wrote:> under a mixed write&read workload, while some write operations are cached and not yet committed to backing store (NAND), some read operations take slightly longer than usual.
These I should also see in a pure SATA environment then (caching operations and committing them to NAND seems to be purely SSD's job and have nothing to do with the adapter if I got it right).

Further testing has revealed no further discoveries so far apart from svchost.exe continuously using 99% CPU and 750MB RAM. Stopping Windows Update service seems to have fixed it straight away.

Meanwhile I've found a proprietary tool called busTRACE at http://www.bustrace.com and captured my bus trace using it but there's no free decoders/analysers available. Wondering if anyone on the forum is known to possess anything like that to hopefully agree to analyse mine.

Update: mSATA-SATA adapter has just turned up. The same SSD works perfectly well with it in my Middleton BIOS modded X61s (genuine SATA-II) w/o a single freeze and even any lagging:
- Sequential Read: 247MB/s as per AS SSD Benchmark, 252MB/s as per CDM303, 277MB/s as per CDM512
- Sequential Write: 223MB/s as per AS SSD Benchmark, 232MB/s as per CDM303, 248MB/s as per CDM512
- Random 4K QD=1 Read: 13MB/s as per AS SSD Benchmark, 15MB/s as per CDM303, 16MB/s as per CDM512
- Random 4K QD=1 Write: 27MB/s as per AS SSD Benchmark, 30MB/s as per CDM303, 38MB/s as per CDM512
- Random 4K QD=32/64 Read: 295MB/s (suspiciously high) as per AS SSD Benchmark, 74MB/s as per CDM303, 77MB/s as per CDM512
- Random 4K QD=32/64 Write: 80MB/s as per AS SSD Benchmark, 67MB/s as per CDM303, 69MB/s as per CDM512
- Access time Read/Write: 0.163ms / 0.125ms resp. as per AS SSD Benchmark

Time to consider buying a Lycom ST-173-7 as a last resort I'm afraid )
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Re: dandreye's tests

#289 Post by automobus » Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:10 am

dandreye wrote:Time to consider buying a Lycom ST-173-7 as a last resort
dandreye, as you are in UK, you might consider buying LyCOM ST-173 Scan Computers. If you do buy from Scan, then please do write a review and point to this discussion. That ought to be helpful to future potential buyers.

However, unless you do enjoy this (spending time, money, experimenting with ATA-ATA translation bridges), I want to discourage you from buying another bridge module. In my opinion, it is not worth it. Marvel 88SA8052 is not necessarily better than JMicron JM20330.

I am done with SATA, just DONE. And certainly done with Parallel/Serial ATA translator bridges. I learned from my experiments, so they were not a waste of (time/money) resources. I do worry that others will try SATA bridged in old systems, and they will wind-up frustrated and disappointed. In my loudmouth opinion, SATA is pointless. The best thing about SATA is its activity indicator pin in its power connector. The second-best SATA feature is eSATA (which was available to consumers since 2005). But modern fashion of consumer electronics does away with both: dedicated storage connections, and useful status indicators.

The future of consumer data storage is NVMe, full stop.

(LEVEL-UP: With this post, I earned rank Senior Member, and my second feather.)

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#290 Post by dandreye » Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:19 am

automobus:

> dandreye, as you are in UK, you might consider buying LyCOM ST-173 Scan Computers.

That's the one I'm looking at: Scan seem to be its only seller here.

> However, unless you do enjoy this (spending time, money, experimenting with ATA-ATA translation bridges), I want to discourage you
> from buying another bridge module. In my opinion, it is not worth it. Marvel 88SA8052 is not necessarily better than JMicron JM20330.

) Well I wouldn't start it all if I didn't want to give a couple of my old PCs another life and if I didn't come across several posts reporting success with one or another (m)SATA-IDE44 adapter + SSD combination, e.g. ac12's one you're referring to. My own experience with my N-2507I adapter hasn't been as good so far but it's the inability to drill down to the root cause that frustrates me most. This entire thread suggests going for a Lycom made adapter as the best available option anyway (if at all), and I think there are a lot more posts reporting success with it than those with a JM20330-based adapter, and it also offers a wider choice of "friendly" SSDs, such as Intel's. If Scan agree to take their ST-173-7 back in case I have similar grief with it why not give it a try risking only the shipping cost in the worst case scenario. So unless I have second thoughts not to try ST-173-7 I'll be back with the results, no matter good or bad... meanwhile I honestly feel I should listen to and follow your suggestion not to at this point )

Btw doing it all encouraged me to study a lot about the HW of all those laptops my family members and I have been using for years, in particular their chipsets, PATA/IDE and SATA specs etc, and also extremely useful SSD related stuff. Using things consciously makes me feel better and so it definitely hasn't been a waste of time so far.

P.S. Congrats on your promotion )
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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#291 Post by dandreye » Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:16 pm

So I'm now a happy owner of Lycom ST-173-7 thanks to Scan's superfast delivery and... it works ) Even with TRIM enabled since inception although TRIM support isn't mentioned among several other features on the packaging, in the specs etc. Windows 7 x86 installed at the 1st attempt directly onto the SSD in my T42 and has been working perfectly well w/o a single issue so far. Benchmark figures are somewhat higher than those seen with N-2507I:

- Sequential Read: 93 as per Samsung Magician, 85MB/s as per AS SSD Benchmark, 91MB/s as per CDM303, 93MB/s as per CDM512
- Sequential Write: 79 as per Samsung Magician, 72MB/s as per AS SSD Benchmark, 78MB/s as per CDM303, 79MB/s as per CDM512
- Random 4K QD=1 Read: 4551 IOPS as per Samsung Magician, 15MB/s as per AS SSD Benchmark, 17MB/s as per CDM303, 17MB/s as per CDM512
- Random 4K QD=1 Write: 8231 IOPS as per Samsung Magician, 25MB/s as per AS SSD Benchmark, 30MB/s as per CDM303, 30MB/s as per CDM512
- Random 4K QD=32/64 Read: 18MB/s as per AS SSD Benchmark, 19MB/s as per CDM303, 19MB/s as per CDM512
- Random 4K QD=32/64 Write: 30MB/s as per AS SSD Benchmark, 35MB/s as per CDM303, 35MB/s as per CDM512
- Access time Read/Write: 0.150ms / 0.116ms resp. as per AS SSD Benchmark

Note: on this occasion I decided to use a 400-hour-old Samsung MZMPC128HBFU-000L1 SSD, Fw CXM13L1Q (Lenovo version) to stop torturing 1900-hour-old Samsung MZMPC128HBFU-000H1 SSD, Fw CXM12H1Q (HP version) that took part in my testing until now. They showed about the same rates while in N-2507I, so I think the figures reported above for the former one should also apply to the latter one.

Btw during random 4K QD=1 and 32/64 read and especially write testing, as well as at times while Windows is accessing the disk at a high frequency an audible whistling sound can be heard with each adapter. No idea whether to attribute it to the adapters (what could that be in them emitting it though?) or perhaps to the HDD LED, which blinks so fast. I don't recall hearing anything like that when running any benchmarks with an HDD in T42, or with either of these SSDs in X61s. Perhaps something specific to my particular T42.

Now that the goal is achieved (fingers crossed - still testing) and I eventually feel rather satisfied, still what's so badly wrong with N-2507I knowing that it's not TRIM, or at least not TRIM alone? Today I noticed a russian buyer's feedback saying the one he received had mSATA connector soldered to the board "not well enough", which he fixed on his own and got his HP 6000 "flying" straight after. I inspected mine and voila: 3 out of the 4 data pins appear to have soldering partly missing, visible even w/o a magnifier glass, and at least one of them moves ) Could we all who have ever had any issues with their JM20330-based adapters just be victims of their build quality issues by chance? (except perhaps for well-known Intel/SandForce incompatibility issues) If I ever have time to try fixing mine I'll post the results here again. Either way my advice to those wishing to try a JM20330-based adapter would be to thoroughly check it visually first thing upon arrival, especially mSATA connector soldering to the board. Meanwhile Lycom ST-173-7 seems to justify its double price (ex shipping) of N-2507I indeed in light of the above. The only difficulty I've had with ST-173-7 so far is during installation: it's fairly loose in T42's primary HDD bay, so I had to remove the palm rest to plug it in safely and have yet to invent how to best fix it there.
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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#292 Post by Paperfolder » Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:10 am

Good Day or whatever in your time zone. A new member here who has been bitten by the ThinkPad bug. I've been following this thread as far as I can. I'm not an electrical engineer, IT professional or anything close. But I do enjoy squeezing out the last bit of performance from these machines.

I've gone the KingSpec route for an SSD, maxed out the memory, used the modded bios to get rid of the silly HD compatibility warning, but have not gone beyond that to maxing out the laptop. I've addressed the PAE question and have become a great fan of MINT after trying out 5 other distros. But everything I've learned about these machines and their quirks I've gotten by reading posts in Forums such as these.

I would like to try the m-sata with pata adapter route but need some assistance. In the following order of importance, I'd like to buy the appropriate parts to make the modification:
1. Successful installation,
2. Simplicity of installation,
3. Dependability and longevity of parts,
4. Cost.

Can you advise me as to what specific parts to buy and where? I'm in Washington DC area. I don't want to break the thread but is there also a SATA to mSATA adapter I could use in a T-63? Further questions will go to the appropriate discussion.

Many thanks in advance for your patience and assistance.

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#293 Post by GACrabill » Tue Mar 22, 2016 4:36 pm

Paperfolder wrote:I've gone the KingSpec route for an SSD, .... I've addressed the PAE question and have become a great fan of MINT after trying out 5 other distros. ... I would like to try the m-sata with pata adapter route but need some assistance. In the following order of importance, I'd like to buy the appropriate parts to make the modification:
1. Successful installation,
2. Simplicity of installation,
3. Dependability and longevity of parts,
4. Cost.

Can you advise me as to what specific parts to buy and where? I'm in Washington DC area. I don't want to break the thread but is there also a SATA to mSATA adapter I could use in a T-63?
Welcome to the Forum ... we all hope that you like it here.

I am not a Linux user so others will have to address your concerns about what parts work for them.

Is the KingSpec SSD not working for you ... or not fast enough? Do you have something like CrystalDiskMark performance numbers for the KingSpec Pata SSD?

As to "is there also a SATA to mSATA adapter I could use in a T-63?" : ..... what's a T-63 ?
The first post in this thread mentioned a “AD963FD9 SATA-III to mSATA 6Gb/s SSD converter adapter with 2.5 case”. This specific item doesn't seem to be available on eBay any more, but I did find it listed here :
http://www.amazon.com/SATA-mSATA-Adapte ... B00AG24ALC
http://www.microsatacables.com/sata-iii ... -sata-3hsg
Another option :
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817998230
http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-2-5- ... B00J1EQH5I
http://www.staples.com/Startechcom-SAT3 ... _IM1UX5374

Good luck with your quest.

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#294 Post by dandreye » Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:43 pm

Paperfolder wrote:is there also a SATA to mSATA adapter I could use in a T-63?
Here's the cheapest SATA-mSATA (no PATA/IDE44) that I managed to find: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261751745003

Here are CrystalDiskMark 5.1.2 benchmark test results of one of my 128 GB Samsung mSATA SSDs in such adapter in Middleton modded (hence SATA II) X61s:

Sequential Read (Q= 32,T= 1) : 277.233 MB/s
Sequential Write (Q= 32,T= 1) : 248.407 MB/s
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 77.058 MB/s [ 18813.0 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 68.991 MB/s [ 16843.5 IOPS]
Sequential Read (T= 1) : 252.504 MB/s
Sequential Write (T= 1) : 231.540 MB/s
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 15.939 MB/s [ 3891.4 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 38.026 MB/s [ 9283.7 IOPS]

As for an IDE44-mSATA adapter, Lycom ST-173-7 and what looks like exact same part branded differently, e.g. Addonics ADMS25IDE, Kuroutoshikou KRHK-mSATA/9, appear to be the best bet for a genuine PATA laptop although somewhat pricey.
Last edited by dandreye on Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#295 Post by ajkula66 » Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:53 pm

Paperfolder wrote:I don't want to break the thread but is there also a SATA to mSATA adapter I could use in a T-63?
I presume that you mean T43. In order to use such an adapter your system would have to be SATA-modded in the first place. There are several IDE to mSATA adapters discussed in this thread. While I personally deem the idea to be not worthy of pursuing on ThinkPads with SATA-to-PATA bridge, you can read the responses from the members who have tested those in their T43/p units and decide for yourself.
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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#296 Post by GACrabill » Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:21 pm

dandreye wrote:Here's the cheapest SATA-mSATA (no PATA/IDE44) that I managed to find:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261751745003

Here are CrystalDiskMark 5.1.2 benchmark test results of one of my 128GB Samsung mSATA SSDs in such adapter in Middleton modded (hence SATA II) X61s: ....
Have you tried to test that adapter in a Sata-III bay ?

It bothers me that the eBay item makes no mention of Win7, Win8, Win10, or Sata-III ("Compatible with DOS, Windows 3.1, NT4, 98SE, Me, 2000 and XP, Vista").

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#297 Post by dandreye » Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:50 pm

GACrabill wrote:Have you tried to test that adapter in a Sata-III bay ?

It bothers me that the eBay item makes no mention of Win7, Win8, Win10, or Sata-III ("Compatible with DOS, Windows 3.1, NT4, 98SE, Me, 2000 and XP, Vista").
I only tested it in SATA-II under Windows 8.1 x64 so far, although I don't think I have SATA-III bay in any of my laptops under test anyway.
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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#298 Post by Paperfolder » Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:18 am

Wow. With all the posts in 2012, 2011, I thought the Forum might be on hiatus. Good to see everybody is up and posting. Duh, T-63? Fusion of T-43 and T-61. I mean a T-61. I tend to steer clear of soldering in laptops. If you're talking about joining two 12 ga. wires or sweat soldering a plumbing pipe, I'll tackle that. But tiny pin connections? Whoa!

No, King-Spec works fine. Love to see the extra speed though. The look on the face of someone who thinks my T-43 is a slug and sees a 10 sec. boot time is priceless. I'll look into the CrystalMark tests.

As for Linux, I encourage a walk down that path. I've played with half a dozen distros and they are all faster than any MS product in the same hardware. Even 32-bit versions. The applications are free. Most have great forums. I've solved any hiccups with a google search - that's how I landed here. Anything you can do with windows you can do with Linux, with the possible exception of heavy gaming, although Steam is making inroads. Probably should move to a new thread for Linux.

I'll be sure to check out the hardware and let you know how it goes. Thank goodness for forums like this. No one in my area seems to know what I'm talking about. I hear "Why are you spending time with that old junk? Buy something new." Different strokes, I guess.

Beyond what I'm considering, how far do the mods go? I hear about Frankenpads occasionally. I assume that goes with heavy soldering. Replacing CPU? Graphics? Screens? Wireless? PATA to SATA conversions - To SATA II or III?

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#299 Post by RealBlackStuff » Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:18 am

Frankies usually consist of the casing from one laptop with the motherboard from another model.
In most cases on this forum:
15" T60 casing with 14.1" motherboard, plus a few extras, creating a T601, T601F or T601FL FrankenPad.
T60 was limited to 3GB RAM and SATA I speed, the (BIOS_modded) T61 takes up to 8GB and has SATA II speed, plus a lot more.
There's no soldering involved, just some T60 chassis modifications.

T43/R52 and X41 got special SATA-mods, converting them from IDE/PATA to SATA hard disks or SSD.
Some delicate soldering is involved there.
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New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

#300 Post by stmok » Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:12 pm

Hi folks,

I just registered to this forum because I read through this entire thread and became interested. I currently own an old ThinkPad T43 (1871).

I bought a KingSpec 128GB PATA SSD. Unfortunately, it was a faulty one. :cry: ...I'll either try to get it replaced with another or ask for a refund. :x
=> Had no problems installing it into T43.
=> Had no problems with BIOS detecting it. (Used version 1.29 modified to not include the Error 2010 message at boot).
=> Had no problems installing WinXP or Win7 on it OR wiping it clean with Darik's Boot and Nuke. (Writing to it).
=> Have lots of problems reading the drive! (System is awfully slow)...Faulty read. Get error message: "A disk read error occurred ...Press Ctrl+Alt+Del to restart" :cry: ...Can install an OS, just can't run it! :(

...Now it looks like this KingSpec SSD is dying. While wiping it (in preparation for RMA), its now running SLOWER than the original HDD it replaced! 1/3rd the speed! I don't think it'll last too much longer. I fear this SSD will initiate a black hole and suck me into its universe of poor reliability! :eek:


Anyway, I thought you guys should know a Japanese owner of a T43 has successfully used Kuroutoshikou KRHK-mSATA/I9 adapter with Transcend SSD 128GB mSATA (TS128GMSA370) ...And had no issue with Windows 10.

In his first blog about it, he just tried Windows 10 on T43 with stock HDD...
=> http://bourbon-pc.seesaa.net/article/431872098.html

He followed that up with a clean install of Windows 10 on Transcend SSD 128GB mSATA in the Kuroutoshikou adapter...
=> http://bourbon-pc.seesaa.net/article/432488433.html

He tried this combo because the original HDD was too slow and too small. He also didn't have any issue with Win10's activation when swapping out the original HDD with mSATA adapter + SSD combo.

I did a little research on the Transcend mSATA SSD in question...It uses the TS6500 controller. Effectively, its a re-branded Silicon Motion SM2246EN controller with custom firmware.

Hope that information is useful to someone out there with a T43.

I'm guessing by the various brands this mSATA-to-IDE adapter goes by (Addonics, Aleratec, Kuroutoshikou, LINDY, Delock, Lycom, etc); its all manufactured by the same company from Taiwan?

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