Upgraded T41p ran happily for a year, now beginning to fail -- With T60 digression

[brooklynboy]

I have a beautiful old T41p (2373-GEU; 128 MB Fire GL T2) that that I upgraded to 2 GB RAM and a WD 320 GB hard drive, Windows 7, and Office 2013. After about a year of stellar performance, it has begun exhibiting symptoms that sound like a loose GPU and/or Southbridge chip. Specifically,

• After anywhere from thirty seconds to an hour or so of operation, the screen freezes (but does NOT distort or go blank), the pointers and keyboard become unresponsive, any audio stops playing, and all indicator lights EXCEPT FOR Power and Battery turn off. The fan continues to run.
• The only way to shut the machine down is to hold in the On/Off button for about five seconds.
• Attempting to restart by pressing the On/Off button causes the Num Lock, Caps Lock, Power, Battery, and Sleep lights to light briefly, but only the Power and Battery lights remain on. The screen remains blank and there is no sign of disk activity. The fan runs gently.
• Pressing the On/Off button in this state for one second turns off the Power light and the fan.
• Picking up the ThinkPad, rapping the edges of case with a fist, and pressing the On/Off button generally allows the machine to boot normally (for however long it will then run).
• There have been NO error messages indicating that the USB ports are malfunctioning.

For what it’s worth, the problems began with the onset of warmer weather, though I use the T41p in an air-conditioned room, and it sits on a stand with a built-in fan. Based on the above description, is there any chance that the problem is something OTHER than the GPU/Southbridge issue? I’ve run a boot-time CHKDSK and memory check without reported errors.

So what’s the expert consensus on what’s ailing my beloved T41p and what I might do about it?

• I feel comfortable removing the keyboard and inserting shims above the chips in question, if someone can point me to precise instructions, but NOT comfortable removing the motherboard or attempting to reflow the solder joints myself.
• I’m willing to spend a little bit of money for expert repair (though not a huge amount), but I’ve read all sorts of horror stories about bad customer service and repairs gone bad. If possible, I'd prefer service in the NY Metro area, so that I might drop off and pick up the machine myself in order to expedite turnaround and eliminate shipping costs.

In the meantime, I'm back on my really ancient T30 with its own motherboard problems.

Thanks in advance to one and all for any recommendations.

ETA: In the machine's frozen state, Fn+Home/End still successfully adjusts the screen's brightness, though the OSD indicator doesn't display, and Fn+PgUp still toggles the ThinkLight on and off.

[ajkula66]

Remove the palmrest and run the machine that way until it freezes.

When frozen, gently press on the wireless card and see whether the freeze goes away. If it does, the SouthBridge is the culprit.

[brooklynboy]

Thanks, George. I gather you suspect the Southbridge because there are no video artifacts.

I've never had the palmrest off, but that's what the hardware manual is for. I'll follow your instructions and report back. Then I'll need to deal with finding a makeshift or permanent fix.

[brooklynboy]

Just an update:

I've moved back successfully, if slowly, to my old T30 and been busy with work. Each morning, I've turned on the T41p and let it run for an hour, but it hasn't frozen up--unlike when I first posted, when it sometimes failed in just a few minutes.

I can't trust the T41p sufficiently to use it as my main machine, so I'll proceed with the palmrest experiment when I return from vacation in two weeks. I'm assuming that

"When frozen, gently press on the wireless card and see whether the freeze goes away. If it does, the SouthBridge is the culprit."

means that the screen and keyboard will unfreeze, the hard drive will start spinning again, and machine will resume normal operation from the frozen state, without my having to reboot.

Thanks again for your help.

[brooklynboy]

Just to follow up...

I still don't quite trust it, but the machine simply stopped locking up. The only change I made was to back out a power update that Lenovo Update had installed. Perhaps a driver incompatibility was mimicking the behavior of a motherboard failure.

Now I've gotten a friend's old T60, which needs a new keyboard. It's got a lovely 1400x1050 IPS screen, so I just might give it that keyboard, a bigger, faster HDD, and Win7.

[MisterB]

Go with the T60, you won't regret it. New keyboards and big SATA drives are cheap. T60s with SXGA and IPS are really nice and much faster and more reliable than T41s.

[ch27]

The only change I made was to back out a power update that Lenovo Update had installed. Perhaps a driver incompatibility was mimicking the behavior of a motherboard failure.

I had the same issue with T42 and one of the Lenovo power management drivers. It would just lock up and need a hard reboot. Removed it, and it was back to normal.

[Johan]

I had the same issue with T42 and one of the Lenovo power management drivers. It would just lock up and need a hard reboot. Removed it, and it was back to normal.

Question: How exactly did you find out that the "Lenovo power management driver" (BTW: Which version, and running under what OS?) was the cause of the lockup - was this e.g. apparent from the Windows Event Viewer log... or did you perhaps just experiment with removing drivers one by one, and in this way discovered that the problem could be fixed by removing the power management driver?

Johan

[dr_st]

I had a similar problem with the X32, which is the same hardware. In my case it would lock up whenever it would try to turn the display off after being idle for a while. Screen would be off, fan spinning wildly, and laptop completely unresponsive.

That was the first clue that it might have something to do with the power settings, and not necessarily a genuine hardware fault. The next clue was that it would only happen in Windows 7, and not in XP, which I was dual-booting with. After I recalled that I had recently upgraded to a newer version of the Power Manager, the rest was a no-brainer.

[ch27]

Question: How exactly did you find out that the "Lenovo power management driver" (BTW: Which version, and running under what OS?) was the cause of the lockup - was this e.g. apparent from the Windows Event Viewer log... or did you perhaps just experiment with removing drivers one by one, and in this way discovered that the problem could be fixed by removing the power management driver?

The OS is Win 7 which was running fine and I had no Power manager/battery maximizer installed but the only options on the taskbar power icon were Balanced, High Performance, and Maximum battery life. One day I thought I would install power manager to give me more options/control, which it did. Immediately after this, it would randomly freeze up. After removing, it was back to normal with no problems. Unfortunately I don't know exactly which version it was. I think I first tried a Win 7 version and got 'this system is not supported' and then used the XP version. I removed it and had little interest to pursue it (and now my backlight on this system just died last week). I would be interested to know if there is a recommended T4x Win 7 version.

Thanks

[dr_st]

I believe I am running 3.25 or 3.30 on my X32 under Win7 and it works fine.

[brooklynboy]

Remove the palmrest and run the machine that way until it freezes.
When frozen, gently press on the wireless card and see whether the freeze goes away. If it does, the SouthBridge is the culprit.

So I removed the keyboard, palmrest, and Wi-Fi card, booted the machine, and waited for it to freeze. Here's what happened:

• Pressing gently or firmly on the Southbridge chip while the machine was frozen (screen functioning normally, but no mouse, keyboard, or HDD action--please see my OP--did not restore it to life.
• Placing some cardboard shims underneath the Wi-Fi card had no beneficial effect. In fact, if anything, it caused the machine to freeze even more quickly upon reboot.

BTW, I verified that I was pressing the right chip. It's an Intel FW82801DBM.

[brooklynboy]

And another update...

Coincidence is not necessarily causation. Backing out the Power Management Driver update was a red herring, as the machine has begun to fail again exactly as described in my OP. The fact that it frequently refuses to power back up unless physically jostled (or sometimes, if the power cable is disconnected and then reconnected) should have made it clear the the problem couldn't be software-related. Correct?

A post in another thread sheds additional light, regarding failure to boot:

quite often there's no display but all the lights come on except the HDD light. If the laptop turns off straight away when you press the I/O button, 9 times out of 10 it's the SB chip.

My T41p powers off with a one-second press of the Power button after a failed boot attempt.

I'm going to refurbish my "new" T60 with a keyboard, a large, fast HDD and Windows 7, but I'd still like to try to rescue the T41p, which is in factory-pristine condition--aside from the fact that it frequently locks up and refuses to reboot.

I've read horror stories in some other threads about reballing services. Is there anyone reputable within a reasonable distance of the NYC Metro area who might be able to repair my T41p?

Thanks again.

[ajkula66]

Is there anyone reputable within a reasonable distance of the NYC Metro area who might be able to repair my T41p?

There's no repair when it comes to your system. A replacement board will be required.

[brooklynboy]

Alas. I was hoping that resoldering the Southbridge would be the solution. Replacement motherboards look to be $125-150, which is more than I'd care to pay--plus I'm not sure that I feel qualified to do that kind of maintenance.

I also have a non-"p" T41 with a cracked cover hinge and worn keyboard. I'll have to figure out whether I can transfer the entire cover (LCD and all), keyboard, palmrest, and HDD from the T41p to that machine to make one lesser, but working T41.

Thanks.

[ajkula66]

Replacement motherboards look to be $125-150, which is more than I'd care to pay--plus I'm not sure that I feel qualified to do that kind of maintenance.

You can do a *lot* better than that. Trust me.

I also have a non-"p" T41 with a cracked cover hinge and worn keyboard. I'll have to figure out whether I can transfer the entire cover (LCD and all), keyboard, palmrest, and HDD from the T41p to that machine to make one lesser, but working T41.

Yes, you can absolutely perform the swap. It will work "out of the box".

Good luck.

[brooklynboy]

I'll have a look at the hardware manual to see what's involved in removing the top. That becomes project #2, unless someone is willing to do an inexpensive T41p motherboard swap, including performing the labor.

First, I've just gotten a 1400x1050 IGS T60 that needs a new keyboard, HDD (probably a Hitachi 7K1000), and Win7, plus a serious degunking. It's too bad that it won't accept a T41 keyboard. Other threads insist that the NMB part (FRU 39T0958) is the best, and I see lots of them on eBay, Amazon, and elsewhere. Does the board have a preferred vendor who deserves my business?

[RealBlackStuff]

Put a WTB (Want To Buy) in the Marketplace forum, instead of going to feebay.

[brooklynboy]

Put a WTB (Want To Buy) in the Marketplace forum, instead of going to feebay.

Done, thanks.

[brooklynboy]

Another update...

I gave up on fixing the T41p and glued together the best parts of the T41p (in great condition except for a bum motherboard) and a T41 with less firepower and more wear (specifically, a broken hinge and a worn-out keyboard).

From the T41: Bottom case and motherboard, including the CPU and, alas, the GPU. I didn't think it worth the additional effort of swapping CPUs for an 0.1 GHz speed increment.

From the T41p: Lid (including LCD and hinges), keyboard, palmrest, bezel, HDD, memory, Wi-Fi card, Bluetooth card, and DVD.

The only mechanical problem I encountered was in removing the bezel from the T41, which required a bit of prying and force in the area near the fan. The two ThinkPads were similar enough that the new hybrid booted right up, and it ran fine after a few driver updates...

...except for the video. There's no Win7 support for the Radeon Mobility 9000, so it booted with the generic VGA driver. The Windows Experience Index decreased from 3.7 to 1.0 for desktop graphics and from 3.6 to 1.0 for gaming graphics.

I downloaded and installed XP driver version 6.14.10.6553, which improved desktop graphics performance to 1.9 but had no effect on gaming graphics. The Win7 Aero effects don't work either, because of the non-WDDM driver, though the 32 MB of video memory is also probably insufficient.

All in all, two hours' work turned two doorstops into one reasonably useful machine, but I'd really like to find a Vista or Win7 driver that fully supports the GPU. Is there such a thing?

[GACrabill]

...except for the video. There's no Win7 support for the Radeon Mobility 9000, so it booted with the generic VGA driver. The Windows Experience Index decreased from 3.7 to 1.0 for desktop graphics and from 3.6 to 1.0 for gaming graphics.

I downloaded and installed XP driver version 6.14.10.6553, which improved desktop graphics performance to 1.9 but had no effect on gaming graphics. The Win7 Aero effects don't work either, because of the non-WDDM driver, though the 32 MB of video memory is also probably insufficient.

All in all, two hours' work turned two doorstops into one reasonably useful machine, but I'd really like to find a Vista or Win7 driver that fully supports the GPU. Is there such a thing?

See this post for the Vista driver that most folks use with Win7 (6.14.10.6606): http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 49#p746649

[brooklynboy]

Thanks for the link. I upgraded from 6553 to 6606 without problem. Of course, there's still no Aero, and the graphics performance measurements are unchanged.

One other annoyance is the fixed, low-contrast color scheme of the Taskbar. I was hoping to circumvent this by copying a saved theme from another machine, but the taskbar background is ignored. A quick web search reveals only unpleasantly tweaky means of dealing with this, but they may prove necessary--it's really hard on the eyes.

[Eric Giles]

Although you've already replaced your motherboard, I believe I have a much better solution for you...I just wanted to test the one I purchased before I recommended it to others. A seller on ebay has sealed in the original box IBM manufacturer refurbished T42p system boards (FRU 42T0273) with the 128MB Fire GL T2 for only $19.99 shipped. Here is the link:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/171537554628?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT

Mine came in the original Lenovo/IBM sealed box with a label date of 11/28/2007. It may be a manufacturer refurbished part, but to me it looked brand new. I've been using it for almost a week and it works perfectly with no issues. The seller lists more than 10 available, so there should be plenty to go around. I am going to order a couple more myself just to have some proven replacement boards.

[brooklynboy]

Hmm... that's very interesting.

Is the T42p board an exact match, component for component and screw for screw, for the T41p? Does it accept the same CPU and Wi-Fi and Bluetooth cards?. Thanks.

ETA: This thread indicates that it is: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=50308.

[RealBlackStuff]

Yup.

[brooklynboy]

My only concern was that the old ThinkPad 11a/b/g Wireless LAN Mini PCI Adapter (Atheros) might not be supported by the T42 BIOS, but I see that it was sold with all three T4x series.

I'm relatively new at gutting ThinkPads, never having gone so far as to replace a motherboard before. I suppose that all I've got to lose is $20 (plus the cost of some Arctic Silver, right?), since I can operate on the lower chassis of the T41p, which is no longer in use, without disturbing the now-functioning T41/41p hybrid.

[MisterB]

Compared to every other laptop I've ever worked on, Thinkpads are a breeze. I've done several motherboard swaps. My T40 has gone through 2. After the first time, I've never hesitated. It's never taken me longer than 2 hours to completely disassemble and reassemble a Thinkpad. The hardware design is service friendly compared to that of some other manufacturers and the hardware maintenance manual is freely available. Compare that to Apple. The instructions for taking a Mac apart are found on 3rd party websites and Macs are designed to make that process difficult for amateurs. I had to strip an iBook G4 down to the motherboard to replace a hard drive once. It took several hours.

I appreciate the link to the T42p motherboards. At that price I might consider fixing my dead 14" T42P.

[brooklynboy]

Since I'd need to install a CPU and heat sink anyway, I wonder whether it would be worth upgrading the 1.7 GHz Pentium M Banias. The T4x compatibility list shows that any 400 MT/s Dothan will work, all the way up to 2.1 GHz.

But wait...The T42p motherboard linked by Eric Giles has a PGA479M socket. According to Wikipedia, the only compatible Dothan is the 1.8 GHz M745A; all of the other Dothans require 478 or BGA sockets. Is this incorrect?

Thanks to all for the ongoing help.

[Eric Giles]

Any 400 MT/s Dothan will work, up to the fastest Pentium M 765 2.1GHz model. The system board is such a bargain at $19.99 that I went ahead an ordered two more.

[brooklynboy]

Any 400 MT/s Dothan will work, up to the fastest Pentium M 765 2.1GHz model. The system board is such a bargain at $19.99 that I went ahead an ordered two more.

The socket issue is a bit confusing, but it seems that 478-pin CPUs will fit--and in this case, even work--in 479-pin sockets. I'll grab one of the T42p mobos while I still can.

Is there any trade-off of performance vs. heat generation in choosing a Dothan to replace the 1.7 GHz Banias, or is the 765 the obvious way to go, assuming that I can find one at reasonable cost? I recall seeing a suggestion in another thread to adjust the power plan after a CPU upgrade.