Frustrated with T42p performance

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Metalloy · #1 Post by **Metalloy** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:41 pm

Hi guys,

I had no recollection that I had registered in this forum when I was sending the message attached below ... I was desperate ... still am but trying to learn to live with it.

If you can read and post me any help I'd really appreciate it.

P.S. I am a veteran Thinkpad user, started with 750C (since I dont remember when !) passed through 755C - 760 - 760XD - 770 - 770ED - A21p - A22p - T41 - T42p !!! Every step through these came with a blasting feeling of awsome performance jump -- upwards of course, EXCEPT from T41 to T42p ... it was an awsome jump also ... but in the wrong direction ... I hope that you guys understand how I feel

Hello Koroush,

I am sending this to you as one of my desperate attempts to recover my
technical dignity and hope that you support a fellow techie as a professional
courtesy (!)

My Background : skip if you want.
Old tech, 45yrs of age, worked in hardware maintenance for 20 years and now as
an engineering consultant. I have fiddled with PCs as early as DOS3.3 and
AutoCAD 8, no Windows at that time. Done lots of REXX and now lots of VB in
Office products.

Problem : 3 Slow IBM Thinkpad T42p machines !,!,!
I owned a very long series of IBM Thinkpads (starting with a 750C, 486DX4
75MHz, 250MB HDD, 4M RAM) all the way through the new T42p top-liner.
I also own a T41 standard model 1.7GHz, 60G/1G and an older A22p 1.0/60G/512.
The new T42p comes with a whopping 2.1G/80G/1.5G and actually slower than the
A22p (sob !). The ugly part is that I convinced a couple of colleagues to buy a
couple of the same machine also, and they too are not happy. The machine cost
more than 5,000$ with the accessories. So maybe now you can see where my
embarresment comes from (!).

Dont take me for a simple user. I AM a power user, I can manage services, and I
edit my registry just like a proud mechanic tunes up a 1975 Camaro.

I have tried all the tricks in my book, and still a solid behavior persists,
very slow startup.

Details :
Machine is IBM 2373-Q1G, 2.1GHz, 1.5GB RAM, ATI-FIREGL T2 128MB.
XP boots up after BIOS start and passes through the pre-logon stage (with the
three blue running squares) like a whistle, very fast ... the squares repeat
the scan only 3 times in about 3-5 seconds. Then the screen blanks out for 2-3
seconds, and then the logon dialog shows up (rather sluggishly). I enter my
user and password, and the desktop wallpaper appear in 1-2 seconds. All fine
till now. Then a horrible 10-20 seconds till the desktop and system tray get
fully populated, and the disk light keeps flickering after that for about
another 5 seconds. THEN the machine stabilizes and can accept clicks.

What is killing me : when I compare that with the much smaller T41, I can
nearly cry. The T41 opens the FULL DESKTOP after logon in no more than 2-3
seconds.

One additional point : after that bloody long boot period, the machine seems to
be OK, very fast in processing ( I can see that when I run some complex VB
number crunching routines under EXCEL ) and very noticeably faster than the
T41, which seems to narrow the problem to a BOOT/STARTUP problem. But no
completely : the strange thing is that the T42p starts applications slower that
the T41, even though they run faster on the T42p after that slow start.

Steps already performed :

1. All the standard stuff : latest drivers, BIOS, etc. even HDD firmware update.
2. Full XP/SP1 re-install, and full tune-up, defrag etc. and all the Registry
tweaks in the book.
3. Disabled most of the starting Services that I can live without.
4. Disabled most of the starting programs (I use JV16 Power Tools).
5. Tried another HDD (7200RPM/60G versus the 4200RPM/80G ).
6. BOOTVIS gave a very strange trace : all services and drivers etc. looked to
be quite quick, except for a period of about 20 secs of complete nothing-ness.
No disk reads or writes, no CPU activity, no drivers or services
initiallizing ... just nothing. Like XP is waiting for something ? Took me no
where.
7. And ofcourse all the other Hardware tests and elimination, etc.
8. I have looked over many forums, links etc. in vain ...

Very much appreciate if you help me out like old veterans do ...

Thanks in advance.

xcoldricex · #2 Post by **xcoldricex** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:49 pm

ohhhhh i hope i don't have these problems

i just ordered a t42p

JHEM · #3 Post by **JHEM** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:55 pm

What exact 80GB HD do you have installed in your unit?

Your symptoms appear precisely the same as those exhibited by a client's machine which arrived with a 4200RPM HD installed rather than the 5400RPM HD it should have come with.

The subject machine was purchased from a retailer in EU, not directly from IBM, and the retailer apparently attempted to maximize his profit by switching HDs and selling the faster one separately.

Regards,

James

revolutionary_one · #4 Post by **revolutionary_one** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:12 pm

Feeling a performance difference is relative in that a specific OS will handle specific hardware differently.

I use linux, and WHENEVER i upgrade a machine, i notice a pretty good performance difference with the OS and NOT specific apps.

I would go a head and benchmark some of these feelings and see where that gets you. Otherwise, breathe freely, use linux

ddignam · #5 Post by **ddignam** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:14 pm

Hmm,

Metalloy did try a 7200RPM disc, although I did think that was the standard on the T42p, don't recall seeing other options when selecting mine.

Are all the taskbar apps being started the same as your old machine? There do seem to be a large number of them, message center, access connections, shock detection, intel wireless connections, password manager, etc. etc.. You may not have had all of these wonderful (?) utilities on the old machine.

stalin · #6 Post by **stalin** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:09 pm

Hey there,

I do have the same issue with my T43p, I think its WinXP specific thing... I didn't care about it much until I read your note though

Metalloy · #7 Post by **Metalloy** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:10 pm

Thank guys, but ...
in response to ddignam : I actually stripped down the installed OS to bare bones ... and still had the very noticable performance difference with the T41 (with the T41 loaded with tons of crap ... P2P, NAV, ...)
Actually the T41 had the disk severly fragmented that it took O&O v6.0 pro about 2 full hours to clean her (that was after the comparison tests), and yet she was so zippy that she invited my trackpoint to double-click all around without a glitch ... while mother hen T42p was like trying to pull a 747 off the ground with a rubber band, it's exactly like that ... cause u see whenever she budged and got on the move SHE WAS SOARING.
I dont, the T42p seems to cache a lot ? then runs ... but still a very dramatic pull down (psychologically ...)

Metalloy · #8 Post by **Metalloy** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:13 pm

Sorry, slipped this : the 80G is 4200RPM ... but I have the exact same symptoms with the 60G/7200. And I have even updated the firmware for both ...

#9 Post by **RonS** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:14 pm

Is the problem only while re-booting? If so, try disabling ALL of the network connections, and re-test. Does the problem go away? If so, then you may be experiencing a problem that I had a while back.

When I receive a new computer, I usually to in and disable the (normally) uncecessary services in the Services Control Panel. With the T42p, however, some of those services are actually needed for the LAN adapter (I forgot which ones). The boot sequence was held up while the wired LAN adapter was trying to get an IP address via DHCP from my router. I restored the services back to factory config and my problems went away.

debug3000 · #10 Post by **debug3000** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:33 pm

I met the same problems before,it's because of the service called "workstation" can't be started in time,so a badly delay occur, but i don't know the exact reason of the latency.mostly it's because of software conflict or driver conflicts.

i think you can just install a fresh windowsxp with no drivers from ibm,i mean just the driver from the xp install cd, to see if it's still the case.

dkrizic · #11 Post by **dkrizic** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:09 am

I have the 2373-P1G (2,1GHz Dothan) and the machine simply runs. I have the 7200rpm Harddisk (60GB) and surely this is important for the overall performance. Also I ensure that the harddisk is defragmented regularely, because this also breaks performance.

Fact is: When I freshly installed Windows XP I needed about one second to find me in the desktop. Now after installing a whole bunch of my software this needs much longer - but this is expected. After login Windows needs to run all the System Tray stuff and other things.

I am very satisfied with the performance!

...darko

Conmee · #12 Post by **Conmee** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:56 am

Metalloy,

I've got a T42p and it runs faster than my T41p/T41/T40p units I've had in the past.

I'd run some benchmarks (3DMark, SiSoft, etc to get an accurate idea of the system's compute, disk access, and memory speed) to establish a baseline. If your scores are in line with what is generally expected of a T42p, you can safely rule out hardware problems.

I'd also Ghost the T41 hard drive you have and restore it onto the T42p drive you have and see if it performs like the T41 or not. This will help you determine if it's software/service related. In fact, I'd Ghost/backup the T41 drive, then put the T41 drive into the T42p and boot to it. Other than minor networking adapter variations, both the T41 and T42 are image compatible. If your T42p runs more acceptably with your T41 hard drive, you've narrowed it down to a hard drive and/or software problem.

Also verify that you have the correct RAM installed, preferrably IBM branded SODIMMs. This shouldn't be the cause of your performance issues (and SiSoft Sandra will verify their speed and benchmark scores), but it wouldn't hurt to physically verify them.

My Build
--------

I installed a new retail version of WinXP Pro with SP2 on my T42p (kept the Service Partition) from scratch (formatted/partitioned hard drive), and it was very fast with all the IBM drivers loaded, including IBM security and file/folder encryption, and IBM Rapid Restore---also have IIS running to serve up local network web-based pages and online documents. Finally, had System Restore, Indexing, Error Event Reporting, and ATI HotKey Poller services running as well (which I usually disable). Basically from the Welcome Screen logon to desktop, it took about 1-2 seconds, literally, to get to the desktop.

My system began to show signs of slowing as I installed applications, one after another, on this fresh WinXP install....

Installed Norton SystemWorks (Utilities, Anti-Virus, CleanSweep, Ghost running as a service) and Webroot Spysweeper... these apps added a good amount of delay to the boot/logon process... probably 5 seconds or so of additional startup time... when I set CleanSweep to launch at startup, probably an additional 10 seconds on top of that while CleanSweep scanned the drive for files to clean up.

Installed Office 2003 (full install)... this added an additional 3-4 seconds of startup time, as it also added Office 2003 OneNote QuickStart applet in the Startup folder....

Installed Adobe Acrobat Pro and Photoshop CS... this added another 2-3 seconds of startup time... I removed the Adobe Gamma Loader from the Startup folder.... saved a second...

Loaded AT&T VPN client, a bunch of IBM SNA VM client stuff for work, Lotus SmartSuite, Lotus Notes, Ulead Studio, Pinnacle Studio 9, Dazzle DVD, Roxio CD/DVD Media Creator 7.5, Epson printer, Canon Scanner, wireless mouse, Palm device, ATI USB 2.0 TV Wonder, docking station with second hard drive in bay, FireWire PC Card, PERL, php, mySQL, Yahoo/MSN/AOLIM messengers, Creative MP3 software, WMP 10, RealPlayer, QuickTime, iTunes, and a few other miscellaneous things... add 10-20 more seconds....

------------------------------

All told, here are my results, using a stop-watch this morning for accuracy:

Press the Power Button to BIOS Password Prompt: 10 seconds
(includes IBM Logo screen, fan spin-up)

Input Password to WinXP Load Initialization: 5 seconds
(includes password for BIOS and 2 hard drives-1 in Dock)

WinXP Load Initialization to Welcome Screen: 38 seconds
(I use old logon requiring CTRL+ALT+DEL)

From Entering Logon info to Desktop: 1 minute, 39 seconds
(waiting for all HDD activity to stop) --------------------

Grand Total from Power Button to Ready Desktop: 2 minutes, 32 seconds

Keep in mind, this is with Indexing, System Restore, IIS, FTP, SMTP, Wireless (as primary network connection), Bluetooth, Norton Anti-Virus 2005, Norton Ghost, Norton CleanSweep, Webroot Spysweeper, ATI Multimedia Center for USB 2.0 TV Wonder, IBM Access Connections, Roxio Drag-to-Disc, IBM USB Key software, eFax Messenger, Palm Desktop, Office 2003 OneNote applet, all IBM ThinkVantage Technologies (including IBM Security and File/Folder Encryption)... all of this loads on startup, and I ran BOOTVIS four times to optimize startup.

Once all this is loaded, the applications pop right up, and the system is very responsive. As my signature notes, I have a 1.8GHz CPU, 1GB PC2700 RAM, and a 60GB 7200rpm drive.

The main differences in speed between my fully loaded build and a base WinXP SP2 build were that it only took about 17 seconds to get to the WinXP Welcome screen, there was only a few seconds of HDD activity at Welcome, and it took about 3-4 seconds to get to the desktop with no HDD activity. So basically, the base took a total (with BIOS/HDD passwords) of about 40 seconds total to boot to a working desktop, while my full build takes 2 minutes and 32 seconds.

Given all the stuff I have running in terms of services and startup apps, the roughly additional 2 minutes of startup time between the base (40 secs) and the full build (2 mins, 32 secs) seems reasonable. Particularly since the system is very responsive to launching/loading apps and data from HDD. When I disable Indexing, System Restore, Error Event Logging, ATI HotKey Poller services, I can shave off about 10 seconds. And if I plug in a wired LAN connection (since my Wired LAN is at the top of my bindings order in Advanced networking properties), I can save an additional 5-7 seconds, leaving me with a total boot time during normal working conditions of about 2 minutes, 15 seconds.

Despite the seeming long startup times, I've run many benchmarks on my T42p, and it beats the T41/T41p in every category hands down, every time.

Daniel.

freddy418 · #13 Post by **freddy418** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:27 am

I had that exact same problem brought up to me by a T42p from my mom's company. It's a messy problems but there's a simple solution.

The problem is that on startup and when opening new programs, the system generates a ton of page faults, and if you allocated hard drive space to virtual memory, then there will be a ridiculous amount of data being shifted back and forth on your hard drive before anything really happens.

So since you already have 1.5 GB worth of RAM, you really don't need extra virtual memory, so go into Control Panel->System->Advanced->Performance Settings->Advanced Tab->Change and then select no paging file.

This sped things up on my mom's computer drastically, so it should make a difference on yours.

stalin · #14 Post by **stalin** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:59 am

BIOS update is out = it fixes the probelm, as far as I can see... Good luck

Metalloy · #15 Post by **Metalloy** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:59 pm

Hey guys, thanks in tons for you all, and a big hug to Bill for setting up this forum. Half my greif is now relieved ... just by talking about my problem to people who care ... really care ... not for money ... not for ambition ... just for the love of being part in cooperative and "ARTISTIC" family ...
UNIQUE ... that is the word UNIQUE.
You know, I have NEVER seen a guy with his car broken on the side of the road and 20-30 guys cluttered around with their heads under his hood, with all their tools trying to fix his car. Actually this is what is happening here. I love you all.
Back to my T42p ...
1. I have disabled paging file and tried. Same.
2. The T41 has (nearly) the same amount of software installed and much more, yet it zips through the boot starting from the 'blue running balls' screen thru logon thru desktop in less than 20 seconds ... My T42p take as much as about 1.5 minutes.
3. I ran a BOOTVIS trace, and the result was WEIIIIIIRD : there were disk activity, CPU activity etc. throughout the boot process for about 30-40 seconds, that's OK. THEN ... there was a whole period of about 50 seconds of complete NOTHINGNESS, absolute blackness - void - nill. Then activity starts again and the boot trace ends after another 30-40 seconds.
I dug under every rock to find out what that BLACK HOLE accounts for without success. What is the machine waiting for ? I disabled adapters, removed the CD drive, etc. till I stripped the machine down to bare bones, ran the trace again and had the exact same result. WEIRD.
4. One big difference between OS on T41 and T42p : the T41 is from my company and comes pre-loaded with a (maybe) special version of XP packaged under what is called an "eBusinesss platform". I dont know exactly what that is but it looks to me exactly like a standard XP. If any of you guys have a clue about this, I believe this may help.
But I think that the trial of installing the T41 disk in the T42p seems like pretty decisive step. I'll tell whenever I try ....

Metalloy · #16 Post by **Metalloy** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:01 pm

Sorry, as usual I forgot : I installed latest BIOS (3.16)

egibbs · #17 Post by **egibbs** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:53 pm

Well, I didn't bring my tools with but I'll stand around and make comments...

My T42p sometimes exhibits a similar issue. It is very quick to boot to the Windows login, but after logging in it sometimes takes up to a minute (or more) to get to a fully loaded desktop.

I haven't really troubleshot because I have several usual suspects and I just assumed it's one or all of them I have the IBM Active Desktop wallpaper, AV software loading, ActiveSynch starting up and looking for my PDA, and Diskeeper set to automatic (it often kicks in for a minute or two at logon).

The strange thing is sometimes it will pop into the desktop in a few seconds and the taskbar will populate almost instantly. Other times it is like molasses.

FWIW I'm running XP Pro OEM and BIOS 3.16.

Ed Gibbs

dexta · #18 Post by **dexta** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:05 pm

By any chance do you have McAfee Virus Scan running? I have On-Access scan set up on it and it slows down my system like hell when I log in and proceed to my desktop. I disabled it once and I was able to go to desktop in less then 2 seconds.

michaelj · #19 Post by **michaelj** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:08 pm

This may be obvious, but after you ran the initial Bootvis analysis, did you run the "optimize" tool?

I shaved about 25secs off my boot time, which is now down to 54 secs with a number of IBM startup items still running(ones I think are worth running at startup - Access Connections, 3 Battery items, TPhotkey, Synaptics, Powermonitor, HD shock protection, DLA and one IBMPRC which I've never identified but decided to keep!

Before you run the optimize tool, make sure Task Scheduler is enabled in services.

#20 Post by **GomJabbar** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:04 pm

Have you looked in Event Viewer? It might give some clues.

Control Panel > Administative Tools > Event Viewer

Also once, when I disabled a service that the wireless adapter required, my boot times greatly increased in time. Maybe you have a service disabled that something is looking for.

stalin · #21 Post by **stalin** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:52 am

Hey Metalloy, would you mind me having a look at your WinXP? I'd glad to help, what do u think of 'remote assistance'?

Metalloy · #22 Post by **Metalloy** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:36 pm

Sure thing Stalin, I can set that up sometime within the next few days and let you know. There is time difference you know.

P.S. I ran the BOOTVIS optimize, and I got like 10sec. savings.

But again what is killing me is the T41 which literally FLASHES into the desktop in seconds, EVERY time, and without a single bit of tuning ...
I usually tune my machine to the last screw : I run JV16 power tools to clean my registry, Bootvis optimize, I defrag with O&O, I clean-up with Spybot S&D, I disable un-necessary Services, I run GPEDIT and tune the internet bandwidth and many more. I have done NOTHING of this in the T41, the machine is loaded with literally CRAP and ... there it just zips lightning fast at boot and during program launches. Crazy ....

cchsiao · #23 Post by **cchsiao** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:18 pm

My wild guess is that: would it be a problem from fingerprint scanner? This looks like the only difference b/w T41 and your T42p. Of course this sounds rediculous, but maybe you can try to remove your palmrest and see if the overall speed improves.

#24 Post by **BillMorrow** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:03 am

thanks for the hug..
and from egypt no less..

uhmm, the only thing i can contribute to all this is:
1. the2373Q1U (or G for german model i think) is, or should be XP SP-2..
2. it should come with a 60gig 7200 RPM drive..
3. and 1gig standard memory..
4. it DOES take some time to load all that crap they insist that you load and run.. like AIM or whatever..

the FPR is, i believe, a USB device.. and should not slow down the loading..
only a small wait while the app loads IF you have it set to load..

FWIW, my Q1u (now on its way to a new owner in belgium) was much faster than the T42p (june 04 model) and both were faster than the last T41p i had..

its really hard to diagnose these things via messages..
i hope my tiny contribution will help..

Paul Unger · #25 Post by **Paul Unger** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:05 am

T42p, eh? Could the 'p' stand for 'patience'? Just what you need--a wise [censored] poking his head under the hood of your car. Sorry, couldn't resist

hnashed · #26 Post by **hnashed** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:07 pm

I've experienced a similar slowdown on different machines and OS's because of a network card or network service. It might be worth a shot to disable the built-in network card and wireless, preferably in the BIOS, just to see what happens.

Paul Unger · #27 Post by **Paul Unger** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:21 pm

I found this in a 'help' file bundled with a freeware utility called RegScrub. There's a whole whack of 'XP tips & tweaks' that the author compiled. These three seem applicable (although the last one is beyond me . . . )

1. Very Slow Boot When Networking

On some XP Pro installations, when connected to a network (peer-peer in this case), the computer boot time is over 1:40. The system seems to freeze after logging in and the desktop may not appear or will freeze for a minute. As timed with the utility, Bootvis.exe, the problem was with the driver mrxsmb.dll, adding over 67 seconds to the boot time. Turning off and restoring file and printer sharing eliminated 65 seconds from the boot time.

Alt-click (or right-click) on Network Places > Properties.
Alt-click on Ethernet Adapter connection > Properties.
Un-check "File and Printer Sharing for Microsoft Networks" > OK.
Reboot.
If you need file or printer sharing, repeat the above, re-check the box and re-boot again.

2. Correcting System Hang at Startup

If your system hangs about 2 or 3 minutes at startup, where you can't access the Start button or the Taskbar, it may be due to one specific service (Background Intelligent Transfer) running in the background. Microsoft put out a patch for this but it didn't work for me. Here's what you do:

Click on Start/Run, type 'msconfig', then click 'OK'.
Go to the 'Services' tab, find the 'Background Intelligent Transfer' service.
Disable it, apply the changes, & reboot.

3. Long Pause During Windows Startup Process

Symptoms
After you choose to start Windows from the Boot menu, you may experience a long delay (or pause) before your computer finishes starting. Note that this delay may range from 10 seconds to a minute. Also, this delay occurs before the Starting Windows progress bar appears, and your computer may appear to stop responding (hang) during this time.

Cause
This behavior can occur if Windows is installed on a drive or a partition to which Windows cannot gain access with normal Basic Input/Output System (BIOS) INT-13 or INT-13 extension calls. When Windows Setup determines it cannot use BIOS calls to start, it uses scsi() or signature() syntax in the Boot.ini file instead of multi() syntax.

When booting a system that requires scsi() or signature() syntax, Ntldr loads an additional device driver (Ntbootdd.sys) to initialize and interrogate the boot controllers in your computer. Ntldr then seeks the associated boot drive attached to the controller to finish loading the kernel. These additional operations take more time in Windows because of the Plug and Play nature of the operating system.

This behavior is expected, however, Windows Setup may use scsi() or signature() syntax, even if your computer can boot using the normal BIOS calls. This may occur on Integrated Drive Electronics-based computers when using a large capacity boot drive. In this case, you can try adding an additional entry in the Boot.ini file and use multi() syntax on the new entry to boot from. Note that if this works, your computer starts without pausing.

Metalloy · #28 Post by **Metalloy** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:15 am

Paul, thanks a million for your exhaustive analysis ,
1. I have the "File and Printer Sharing" disabled.
2. I think that I tried the BITS services off before, but I shall give it another shot.
3. The Boot.ini has a native disk support "multi()".

Sorry ....

GoPool · #29 Post by **GoPool** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:52 pm

I had the same problem on my T40. Bootvis showed that mrxsmb delayed for about 10 seconds. I disable the workstation service, and deleted the registry key for mrxsmb. Now my boot time is about 38 seconds.

Frustrated with T42p performance

Frustrated with T42p performance

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