just got my t43p - performance vs. noise

[nrj45]

Hello everybody,
I got my brand new t43p 2 days ago. Nights were short...
Meanwhile i was waiting on it, I read read and read all possible posts on this forum (speaking about fan/heat issues, power drain and many other things.

First thing I did :
bios update, fresh install of xp pro, embedded controller update, installing all drivers/utility, service packing, downloading latest update from wupdate site.

As I m writing this post, I'm in a quite silent room. I can hear the fan. I estimate it as loud as the whisper of the 7k hdd.

With CHC : downvolted the cpu at 800MHz@0.700Vcore.
I'm running on battery so the gpu is at 105MHz Core and 120MHz Memory.
Ambiant temperature is about 22-24°C, cpu temp is 44°C (stagning due to the fan always on at low rpm).
MobMeter is telling me about 15.5W power drain (constant since I began writing this post).

I found an inhabitual "issue" : when the fan began to run (as cpu temperature was reaching 42°C), it first ran at very high rpm (like at the begin of the boot process) this during about 3-4 seconds and then lowered its speed until a low rpm that can just be supported. Quite strange I feel.
Has anybody experienced the same things ?

This post is intended to grow up (I just don't have the time to test a lot of more things now).

Is there a way to control the fan bahaviour under windows ? I saw scripts for linux on thinkwiki.org

Any tweaks are welcome (especially for lowering the fan speed)

The following has been edited on june the 29th 2005 :

Since I got my t43p I had time to play, undervolt the cpu, overclock the graphic card, tweaking windows (memory managment, file system performances,...).

The game I'm playing these days is GTA san Andreas. I use these settings for this game :
1866MHz@1180mVcore (for cpu)
480MHz (core) 300MHz (Memory) for graphics
ambiant temp : 25°C

Concerning my fan : it's not running faster under load !!! I know he's able to run faster (because of the speed it reaches at the boot time) but while playing games like the mentionned one, the cpu temp is reaching 65°C (versus 47°C while idling) and the fan is running at the same speed as when idling !!! why why why ???

Need advices on this topic (especially by t43p owners). Personnally I see 2 reasons :

• bad steps in the fan speed configuration
  The whole notebook case has to be constantly cooled for some reason I want to know

[stalin]

he-he, welcome to the club, there will be NO SOLUTIONS. Write an email to IBM, complain, may be they'll start doing smth about it. I haven't received any reply from them for more then 2 weeks already. The fan in my T43p is the only pain in my [censored] I have with my thinkpad, u can't even imagine...

[Inky]

This is my attempt to understand the problem...

For years it was considered a special FEATURE of certain high performance desktop systems to have the fan speed increase automatically in response to any increase in CPU temperature.

It sounds like IBM may have implemented that feature in the ThinkPad to deal with the extra heat produced by the 533 Mhz FSB in the T43's.

An increase in fan speed does increase cooling, but it also makes the fan louder and most distracting of all is that fan speed raises the PITCH.

This is unfortunate. While it is possible to get used to the drone of a fan that is continuously on, any CHANGE in the sound, such as shifts in the loudness--or especially changes in pitch--will amount to constant little tugs at the user's attention.

Since laptop computers place the fan closer to the user's ears than a tower system tucked away beneath a desk, and since laptops are sometimes used in quiet environments (e.g. a bedroom late at night) you'd think laptops merit extra attention to find a QUIET solution to the heat dissipation problem.

I find it odd for this issue to come up with IBM's ThinkPads--considering that IBM has traditionally given extra attention to creating a satisfactory (ergonomic) computing experience, for instance by making sure their keyboards feel nice to type on.

A few years ago IBM proudly proclaimed the invention of a new type of heatsink based on a thin layer of liquid flowing between two layers of metal. I don't know why they didn't make use of that technology to create a quiet cooling solution instead of resorting to a variable speed fan.



Also, I have a question for anyone with a 2 Ghz T43:

Has anyone succeeded at using software (like the Centrino Hardware Control) to bring the the operating speed way down, and the Idling speed even lower--to the point where the fan noise is gone?

Most of the things I want to do require very little CPU power (reading and writing documents) and when I'm concentrating on quietly reading a document that's exactly when I don't want distracting fan noises in my lap.

However, it would be nice to have the option of revving the CPU up to 2 Ghz on the rare occasions when I do audio & video work, and at those times I wouldn't mind putting up with some fan noise in exchange for the extra processing power.

Unfortunately, from what I've read so far I get the impression that the T43's with their 533 Mhz FSB can't go below an IDLE speed of 800 Mhz! It seems crazy to be using that much power if I'm just reading a page of text, and I'm not surprised if the fan has to run like crazy to cool that down. Heck, for reading documents even 100 Mhz would suffice!

So if anyone has been able to (temporarily) slow a 2 Ghz CPU WAY down and reduce fan noise as a result I would love to hear about it.

-Inky

[Kel Ghu]

This is wierd... My fan is less noisy with the "optimized fan control to" set to "max perf" than with "balance all parameters"...

It looks like faster fan spinning means less CPU performance... I don't get it...

[plucky duck]

"Is there a way to control the fan bahaviour under windows ? I saw scripts for linux on thinkwiki.org "

Even if there were such a program and not one that is released by IBM, would that void the warranty if you accidentally turned it off and burnt the GPU/CPU?

[sugo]

Even on a T42, the fan speed incrases when the ACPI temperature increases. It's not new on T43.

The system will shut down itself when the ACPI temperature reaches a certain threshold. On my T42 it's 93'C.

nrj45: when you said 15.5W, what was the LCD brightness setting?

[chrisnyc]

My purchase of a T43, and therefore my purchase of a Thinkpad at all, is ON HOLD until this fan issue is corrected.

And if it's never corrected, well then I just won't be buying a Thinkpad notebook.

I'm still considering getting one of the few remaining available T42's which don't have the fan running nonstop, but I'm hesitant because I resent the idea of having to buy a model that is being discontinued because IBM/Lenovo puts out a supposedly newer, better model, that has what I consider to be a MAJOR FLAW (just my opinion, folks); and also because the pricing on the remaining T42's is no better than the new T43's.

I'm using my now obsolete but still fully working Dell Inspiron which is now 3 1/2 yrs old and I want to replace, and for the record the fan almost never turns on and it's silent ; and I know I'll be very unhappy with a T43 Thinkpad as they are now. So unfortunately I may end up with another Dell (a Latitude this time) or another brand.

In the meantime I'll keep reading the forum -- and thanks everyone for your input ; one final point, I can adjust settings for the computer (such as power management, etc), but am unable to do anything like changing the voltage / clocking, etc.

[stalin]

hi chrisnyc,
yeah, lucky you are... I have mine already. I'll wait for the next bios update or whatever (max. 2-3 weeks more), if the problem is still there, I'll have to write 'fan speed control' utility or smth (Sorry, those of you who where writing positive reviews stating that the fan is no problem at all - you are most probably deaf). I can't and I do not want to stand this noise and honestly enough I do not understand why a $5000 machine sucks more than a crapy acer laptop.
For such a price, apart from 'access ibm' button, there should be another one - 'kiss my [censored]', just for my pure pleasure, if I wish so.
But, the reality is different I really didn't expect such a thing.

[sugo]

stalin, I can imagine your frustration. Please don't get mad, it's just a machine after all. I am curious though, if you have played with a T42 and compared the fan noise?

I am also puzzled sometimes when many Dell users reported that fans in their laptops rarely come on.

[stalin]

I am also puzzled sometimes when many Dell users reported that fans in their laptops rarely come on.

Funny enough, 2 of my collegues have dells (sorry, I don't remember the exact models, they bought it couple of months ago though) and the other one has T42p (everything the same, but just not sanoma) ...
What concerns Dell, it is really true, the fans start off once or twice per hour for a while and then a complete silence, just nothing, nada.
The 42p is silent as well in comparison to T43p. As we work together, we spend the majority of the day in the same room and they started to call my brand new T43p a hoover...

[rocketman]

I had received one of the first T43p's (2668-G2U). It had to be returned due to a damaged display but I probably would have returned it anyway due to the incessant and loud fan noise. By contrast my T42 is downright silent, what a pleasure it is to use. The T43p was not only loud but the fan would at times rev up like a jet ready to lift off, IMO this is definitely something that must be rectified. I've read about other laptops that use the 2.13GHz PM processor that are supposed to be not nearly as loud.

[Kel Ghu]

Many people complaining about the fan... But it looks like none of you guys take advantage of the full power of your laptop. You must be mainly using low CPU usage apps, like word and such. And imho, the fan is not that loud. It sounds like you guys all work in extremely quiet places, such as library. And at home, none of you listen to music or do anything that is as noisy as the fan?

As a intensive CPU user, I think the fan noise is acceptable compared to the performance I get with my demanding apps. I do 3D molecule modeling such as protein.

But I agree with you that with low cpu usage apps, the fan shouldnt be on all the time.

[K. Eng]

I keep reading people complaining about T43 noise... I hope that I can get my hands on a unit to actually see how loud it is.

My T40 is very silent in battery mode... when plugged into AC though the fan always runs and I still get a *buzz* sound every 30 sec or so (though not noticeable unless I'm in a quiet room).

[chrisnyc]

Exactly, Kel Ghu, I use my laptop computer mainly for low-processor-intensive tasks ; and only rarely for demanding tasks.

Right now it's late at night and I'm in my kitchen reading over this forum. My Dell Inspiron 8100 is totally silent ; occasionally the hard drive may move a little, but the hard disk is quiet and its sounds do not bother me at all, even when it's whirling away and clicking, etc.

The motor on my refrigerator is humming quietly in the background -- across the room -- and it too doesn't bother me at all.

As far as the fan on my Dell computer, with some tasks it goes on low and sounds OK, but not if it would stay on, even at low, all the time.

When the fan on my Dell does go into high mode, it is VERY LOUD and ANNOYING. But I learned on the Dell forum that hitting the "Fn" and "Z" keys turns off the fan. Actually when the fan goes on high like that, the computer slows to a crawl, and I think the computer is simply not capable of the activity I'm trying to do. So that's a limitation of the computer's power and capacity, which is why I need a new model (I have a Pentium III-m processor at 1 GHz, if you know what that is, it's several generations old by now).

But I'm still enjoying my computer, and continue to be able to use it for the things I do most, surfing the Web, e-mail, Word documents, etc.

What I like about the Thinkpads is the following : sturdy construction -- great input device (UltraNav pad) -- great screen, I want a standard 15" (not widescreen), and I want the FlexView screen.

So my choices are really limited -- the Dell Latitude I would get (D810) has a widescreen, and an inferior Alps touchpad ; HP's comparable models are also widescreen -- etc., etc. Seems like even with all the choices of the different brands and models, it's still not all that easy to get exactly what you want in a notebook. One final note on the Dells -- Dell's new Inspiron 6000 has a constantly running fan, as reported on their forums, and when people complained to Dell they were told that it is a normal feature of the computer, take it or leave it, just like Lenovo is apparently saying with the T43's !

So what do you think -- should I just bite the bullet and get me one of the remaining T42's ? Any downside to that -- they're certainly powerful enough for me.

Thanks for any advise.

[roast]

Has anyone succeeded at using software (like the Centrino Hardware Control) to bring the the operating speed way down, and the Idling speed even lower--to the point where the fan noise is gone?

Nope. Not with my 2.13GHz T43p. It's at 800MHz@0.700V right now, and the temp is 44, with the fan being the same volume as my air filter here (which is lower than a regular filter, but less noisy than a regular stand-up fan). In my previous posts, I mentioned that it wasn't that loud, and would not be an issue for me, but I'm starting to get worried when I do have to start working in a quiet environment (dorm room with roommate, campus library, small lecture with ~20 people).

hi chrisnyc,
yeah, lucky you are... I have mine already. I'll wait for the next bios update or whatever (max. 2-3 weeks more), if the problem is still there, I'll have to write 'fan speed control' utility or smth (Sorry, those of you who where writing positive reviews stating that the fan is no problem at all - you are most probably deaf).

You have the T43p and are expecting a BIOS update? AFAIK, my T43p shipped with BIOS version 1.06a, and the site only reports BIOS v1.05 available.

I am also puzzled sometimes when many Dell users reported that fans in their laptops rarely come on.

Funny enough, 2 of my collegues have dells (sorry, I don't remember the exact models, they bought it couple of months ago though) and the other one has T42p (everything the same, but just not sanoma) ...
What concerns Dell, it is really true, the fans start off once or twice per hour for a while and then a complete silence, just nothing, nada.
The 42p is silent as well in comparison to T43p. As we work together, we spend the majority of the day in the same room and they started to call my brand new T43p a hoover...

Funny. I can say that all the Dells I've seen are more quiet than my thinkpad, but I can also say that my thinkpad is much more cooler (and thinner) and can actually be used on a lap. But still, the fan shouldn't need to be loud.

[Greg Gebhardt]

I keep reading people complaining about T43 noise... I hope that I can get my hands on a unit to actually see how loud it is.

My T40 is very silent in battery mode... when plugged into AC though the fan always runs and I still get a *buzz* sound every 30 sec or so (though not noticeable unless I'm in a quiet room).

I don't understand. I have had a T42p and now T43 and the fan does not bother me. The only time I even hear the fan is when the machine first boots after that I can barely hear it.

Not sure if I am deaf of people just don't want to hear ANY fan noise at all. If it was as loud as many have said there must be something wrong or they are being OVER picky!

[Scorpiontico]

I keep reading people complaining about T43 noise... I hope that I can get my hands on a unit to actually see how loud it is.

My T40 is very silent in battery mode... when plugged into AC though the fan always runs and I still get a *buzz* sound every 30 sec or so (though not noticeable unless I'm in a quiet room).

I don't understand. I have had a T42p and now T43 and the fan does not bother me. The only time I even hear the fan is when the machine first boots after that I can barely hear it.

Not sure if I am deaf of people just don't want to hear ANY fan noise at all. If it was as loud as many have said there must be something wrong or they are being OVER picky!

could you contrast the 2 systems (t43/t42) for us please!

thanks a bunch.

[nrj45]

nrj45: when you said 15.5W, what was the LCD brightness setting?

Can't remember.
But here are some things I can say (testing it just right now for 30min):

• 800MHz@0.716Vcore (downvolted with CHC) and blocked (I've blocked cpu frequency to this one)
  LCD Brightness set to minimum
  Powerplay set to maximize autonomy --> core : 105MHz, mem : 121.5MHz
  25°C of ambient temperature
  13.5 Watts average consumption
  cpu is stagning at 43°C
  I can easily ear the fan noise while watching TV
  The air blown by the fan is almost cold

Let me try to describe the noise. You won't notice it if you are in noisy environnement. But it is just loud enough to make me feel not very proud if I'm in the classroom and the teacher is the only to speak.

I can't explain me why the fan has to be constantly on (even at low rpm). Perhaps to keep some other components cool ?).

I've mentionned it in another thread : my old acer dothan 1.5GHz was beginning to fan at 57°C and was stopping at 53°C. Undervolting made it fanless (cpu temp was stagning at 47°C). If we want passive cooling to be effective, the fan has to let the cpu run a little hotter to allow passive thermal dissipation.

[Kel Ghu]

you can underclock the GPU down to 45Mhz and Memory to 115Mhz for less heat.

[nrj45]

you can underclock the GPU down to 45Mhz and Memory to 115Mhz for less heat.

I just tried this settings but something is strange. Here is what I've done :
- disable powerplay to unlock gpu/mem control in CHC (400MHz/250MHz)
- clock down graphics as you told (45Mhz/115Mhz)
But the power drain in mob metter didn't change at all. Is CHC only underclocking and not undervolting accordingly ? Because I think power drain and heat production are quite linked...

Or perhaps the gpu is able to "sleep" between each time it has to work ?

Did you experience the same thing ?

Thanks for idea.

Sam

[Scorpiontico]

FireGL V3200 has 128mb and uses 400mhz/250mhz settings as default... i wonder if im frying my x300 64mb by overclocking it from 300mhz/230mhz to 375mhz/285mhz (a 25% increasement from default settings)?

let me know of your opinions, thanks.

ps:i use overclock settings only when gaming, so far playing for hours doom3 and unreal2004 i have not found any problem (hardware nor software).

[nrj45]

This one I tested overclocking instead of downclocking. I set with CHC 480MHz/300MHz (instead of 400/250 by default). I played 1 hour gta san andreas without bug but it's not the topic (I put this juste to show I tested a bit this configuration). I made some conclusions for myself (not sure it's correct) :
- CHC keep default voltage and allow to modify frequency
- Powerplay has 3 steps and modify the voltage accordingly to the frequency
My questions : How to choose the relation between the core and the memory frequency ? Why on some cards cpu is running faster than memory and on other cards it's the opposite ?

[Kel Ghu]

Well, GPU speed is related to fill rate and 3D effect processing and Memory speed is more related texture transfert. Well the actual speed will be based on the slowest of the two. It depends on the games or apps you are using. Some are gpu intensive, others are memory intensive. There is no right settings. Actually there is... Max speed for gpu and memory ^^

High speed needs high voltage to be achieved. I guess the memory is too power hungry to achieve high frequency. That's why its slower than the gpu. But it probably has wide data bus. Havent checked it though.

[nrj45]

1st post edited