proving the superior quality of an IBM?

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akerman · #1 Post by **akerman** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 5:46 pm

hey
we have a discussion going at a danish forum.. some guy read an article in a magzine called "pc-planet"; stating that IBMs machines aren't worth the money at all, and that their design+ergonomics are getting old, while other brands are getting better. Furthermore, the article seems to state, that the famous "IBM-quality" doesn't hold up, ie. that the build quality of the IBMs don't surpass that of the other computers in the test!!
Seems like some other people jump on that wagon - saying that IBM is not what it once was, and that you can get equal quality with an acer or asus, for less.

Can anybody give me links, to articles/surveys/tests/whatever, that somehow prove that IBM IS in fact, better than competing brands? And that there is a reason, we (some of us) are paying so much more for an IBM?

Leon · #2 Post by **Leon** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 5:52 pm

I checked...

http://www.pc-planet.dk/showhtml.asp?ID=143

all I could find is "software"

#3 Post by **K. Eng** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 5:56 pm

+ Good customer service. I have never had to wait more than 2 minutes to talk to a real live person. With Dell, I often had to wait 10+ minutes to talk to someone in Bangalore over VOIP (internet phone, terrible quality).

+ Keyboard. I have not found a machine in the T4x's weight class with as good a keyboard as the T4x. The difference between the T40 and the Dell 600m, for example, is huge.

+ UltraNav. IBM's dual pointing system is the best, hands down. The scroll key, variable trackpoint caps, and synaptics touchpad are quality technology (far better than the alps touchpads found on most lower cost notebooks).

And that there is a reason, we (some of us) are paying so much more for an IBM?

akerman · #4 Post by **akerman** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 5:56 pm

the article primer is on the frontpage actually.. but you have to buy the magazine to read it :>

cynic · #5 Post by **cynic** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:52 pm

There's no need to prove to anyone the superiority of design/build quality of ThinkPads. Those who have them love 'em and use 'em. Those that don't... who really cares? As long as I can go year in and year out with nary a problem, there doesn't seem to be a reason to justify my spending.

Those that create such debates seem to find it necessary to vilify something unattainable or justify what they've purchased. One shouldn't embroil themselves in such discussions because no matter how persuassive the argument, no opinions will be changed.

Humpa · #6 Post by **Humpa** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 10:29 pm

K. Eng (or anyone), I just RMA'd a T42 and have another one on the way. I've been using an X21 for 3yrs and am hooked on the trackpoint. I noticed that the T42 seemed to have a larger trackpoint (though I didnt take off the cap), and it also worked much nicer than the one on my X21.
I searched this site and google for "variable trackpoint", but came up with nothing.
What is a variable trackpoint cap? Am I missing something?

ian · #7 Post by **ian** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 10:39 pm

I think, in fact I'm sure, what K.Eng meant by variable trackpoint caps is simply the fact that you can change the trackpoint cap - there are, to my knowledge, three 'varieties'.

I'd just like to chime in on this thread with my three pennyworth.

- there aren't many (any other) laptop manufacturers who offer a three year guarantee for their products.
- IBM is one of two manufacturers who have a system for swapping in a 'drivebay' config - battery, 2nd hard disk, etc.

These two items alone, for me, are very valuable and outweigh small design flaws or slight errors in manufacturing tolerances.

I think my only real gripe in terms of build quality is the fact that the screen ribbon is visible behind a very flimsy plastic 'cache' whish seems to move rather more than it should. This alone would not make me want to buy another make! Take a look at the screen, particularly on my 15" - and the keyboard (rock solid)

Not unnaturally I'll stand up for this machine - but I honestly think it's justified.

Tokyo · #8 Post by **Tokyo** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:52 am

I can agree on excellent quality of the hardware of a ThinkPad. But software?

- The recovery solution that ships with my T42 doesn't respect partitions that I made for dual booting
- The Bluetooth software interferes with the Windows software and you need to manually fix it
- Trackpoint scrolling doesn't work properly in Java neither in Linux
- The software that came with the ThinkPad, except for Access Connections, is a bunch of ugly applications whose main purpose seems to be to fill your task bar

Enough negative waves. Despite these issues, I really like my T42. But for a company that wants to be big in software this is embarassing.

Hope I don't get beaten up for this ...

RoadHazard · #9 Post by **RoadHazard** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:25 am

I like the Thinkpad in several ways. First of all I like the build quality. It seems more solid than other brand I have used, even Toshiba. May be I'm not too good at computer but at least I can get my Thinkpad to run PPT slides with correct resolution every time while I cannot do it with most of my friends Dell machines. This goes for playing movie on the TV monitor too. Although we see some problems being asked around the forum, some of these are minor compared to those I have seen in other brands. I also like the way IBM design their computers and parts. All buttons are well functioned and all of them work too! IBM are confident enough to let customer install some parts by themselves where other brands would void warranty if the customers just open up the chassis. Driver support are constantly updated too. Although the installation is not as easy but it is very systematic. And not to mention customer service and warranty work.

Ok. that is quite a long post but I think these are major points that make I feel good about IBM. After I made my purchase I never regret paying extra money for these things. I guess reviewers comments are one thing. The owner experiences are something different.

lilserenity · #10 Post by **lilserenity** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:15 pm

I don't need to justify why:

a.) I use Thinkpads.
b.) Why I would say IBM is superior.

Sure the design is not ultra contemporary (I can have enough of this silver coloured everything).

Sure they don't have all the latest gizmos on them as soon as they are released and also some years after their release. (Firewire on a T4xp anybody... built in?)

And sure they come at a premium.

The only reason I use a ThinkPad as my main computer is that I can use it; it feels like a computer, not a toy. Anybody who uses it is impressed at the quality of the components (the keyboard and mouse cursor control particularly).

That and the DBMS I wrote on this system (it's a biggie), my artwork, my website work and all the rest of it, plus an older 560Z running as my server, usually is more than enough to show to others that "This is why I choose ThinkPad".

Of course, what is one person's solution is not necessarily another person's solution.

That said though, my boss was only to eager to ditch the nearly brand new HP/Compaq P4 1.8GHz laptop they had when she used my T23. I think what she said sums up my, or our reasoning for using ThinkPads. "This laptop is actually a computer you can use isn't it!".

She now has a T41 in her office, her kids have the HP/Compaq laptop, and she hasn't had a single complaint about it.

But alas these kind of 'arguments' are futile "Mine is better than yours nerrr nerr neee nerrr nerrr", no, what we mean is "You have your solution, I have mine, let's have some mutual respect, and stop piffling on about laptops, you wanna come down the pub for a swift half tonight?"...

Vicky xx
Mine's a stella, ta!

synapse · #11 Post by **synapse** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:48 pm

I was considering the same thing as you for a while but decided to go ahead for the reasons listed above but I now am glad I did.

I had to call tech support today and immediately got someone on the line, no waiting (and for a friday night prime time too!) this guy was super knowledgeable, could speak excellent english (a biggie since I always seem to get people when I call other companies that I can't understand) and he even stayed 2 hours past when he was supposed to go home (on a friday once again) to help me. He called me back when he needed to test the some things on his own and was overall one of the very best support personal I have ever dealt with. He even gave me his extension so I can call him back in the future.

just my 2 cents, but this incident alone made the purchase when combined with what was said earlier well worth it.

-Dan

kilago · #12 Post by **kilago** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 4:25 am

use them both and you'll know.

Greg Gebhardt · #13 Post by **Greg Gebhardt** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 8:51 am

I have owned Dell, Tosh, Sony and Gateway. None compare to the build quality of an IBM. You will find other laptops with more bells and whistles but for rock steady performance, dependablilty and superior service you can not beat IBM.

After you own a good Thinkpad it's hard to go back to another laptop.

mdarnton · #14 Post by **mdarnton** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 9:27 am

To that list, I can add nine laptops in the last 15 years or so: HP (the old HP, one of their very first laptops--and the new company), Compaq, Toshiba, Packard-Bell, and a few others. Finally I bought my Thinkpad a few months ago because it seemed rock-hard--the others mostly went in the trash when they physically self-destructed after a year or two. My latest Compaq had the case top replaced twice, and after the third time, I just gave up. None of them has been built like this IBM, which is built like something from John Deere. My wife just got a new Sony 505, and compared to the Thinkpad it's a plastic toy, with, by the way, a totally unusable keyboard (the keys are all flush--there's no way to feel what row you're in or if you're on a key or on the hole betwen them!)

The one thing that decided me for IBM was reading a review that said, essentially "you don't need a laptop this tough." Well, I do.

akerman · #15 Post by **akerman** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 10:50 am

But these are all opinions.. are there no hard facts to support the opinions? I'm sure some Acer users on an Acer forum, would say the same things you are saying

stgreek · #16 Post by **stgreek** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 12:21 pm

akerman, you can simply NOT say that a laptop is better than another, since each user has different needs. However, 9 out of 10 people that use both a Thinkpad and a different laptop for a while end up with the Thinkpad. Those that claim that Thinkpads are too expensive (true) and therefore not worth it has not used one for more than 1 minute, and so should not have an opinion.

ian · #17 Post by **ian** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 12:42 pm

I don't know that Thinkpads are really that expensive - what with all the different possibilities of buying from credit card schemes, schools etc. or Bill, it seems to me that sure, they are not cheap, but then the guarantee of three years etc. etc. (everything has been mentioned a hundred fold already) has to be paid for - the build quality and the regular no-questions asked replacement of parts seems to me, and this is my personal opinion, worth the extra cost.

Toshiba, Sony et al make very good laptops - I just prefer the one I'm using now, which just happens to be an IBM...

akerman · #18 Post by **akerman** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 3:15 pm

stgreek > no but for instance, you can do tests.. like throw a dell and an ibm out of a window, and see which one survives

stgreek · #19 Post by **stgreek** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 5:36 pm

This test HAS been done, and the IBM was the only laptop out of 4 fell from 1.5m and kept working. If I find the link, I'll post it.

lilserenity · #20 Post by **lilserenity** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 6:21 pm

*scratches head*

So if my T23 falls out of the potting shed window, then I'm fine.

Should it fly out my bedroom window, I'm somewhat up the creek without a trowel, I mean paddle.

That said my T23 has had two falls in its time, both around a 3-4ft. drop and it stills seems to work without so much a problem. (No cracks on the case either.)

Still if I drop it out of my potting shed window for the acid test...

...eeek that was the bedroom window. *BANG* Ahhh [censored], not another dent in my XR2's body work

One too many beers tonight me thinks

3 more days till I hit the USA, watch out

Vicky

texref · #21 Post by **texref** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 11:34 pm

lilserenity wrote: One too many beers tonight me thinks 3 more days till I hit the USA, watch out

Vicky

I think we better alert the authorities

Oh and BTW I''ve FINALLY decided on a laptop... now to find money between the seat cusions

ian · #22 Post by **ian** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 11:57 pm

...might be worth keeping the cusions to protect your investment...

edelrc · #23 Post by **edelrc** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 12:13 am

Talking about cusions... Do not feel bad about the IBM Protection Plan Ian... It only covers within the US! Unless the 'whole thing' breaks is barelly worth it.

proving the superior quality of an IBM?

proving the superior quality of an IBM?

Re: proving the superior quality of an IBM?

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