Doom 3 problem with FireGL T2?

T4x series specific matters only
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csv96
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Doom 3 problem with FireGL T2?

#1 Post by csv96 » Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:22 pm

I'm trying to run Doom 3 on my T42p, but I get an error message. I'm using the latest ATI Catalyst driver with the mobility modder. Anyone else have this problem or know a workaround?

Error Message:

1798 MHz Intel CPU with MMX & SSE & SSE2
1024 MB System Memory
128 MB Video Memory
Winsock Initialized
Hostname: THINKPADT42P
IP: 192.168.1.100
doom using MMX & SSE & SSE2 for SIMD processing
enabled Flush-To-Zero mode
enabled Denormals-Are-Zero mode
------ Initializing File System ------
Current search path:
C:\Program Files\Doom 3/base
C:\Program Files\Doom 3\base\pak004.pk4 (5137 files)
C:\Program Files\Doom 3\base\pak003.pk4 (4676 files)
C:\Program Files\Doom 3\base\pak002.pk4 (6120 files)
C:\Program Files\Doom 3\base\pak001.pk4 (8972 files)
C:\Program Files\Doom 3\base\pak000.pk4 (2698 files)
C:\Program Files\Doom 3\base\game00.pk4 (2 files)
game DLL: 0x0 in pak: 0x0
file system initialized.
--------------------------------------
----- Initializing Decls -----
------------------------------
------- Initializing renderSystem --------
using ARB renderSystem
renderSystem initialized.
--------------------------------------
4966 strings read from strings/english.lang
Couldn't open journal files
execing editor.cfg
execing default.cfg
couldn't exec DoomConfig.cfg
couldn't exec autoexec.cfg
4966 strings read from strings/english.lang
----- Initializing Sound System ------
sound system initialized.
--------------------------------------
----- R_InitOpenGL -----
Initializing OpenGL subsystem
...registered window class
...registered fake window class
...initializing QGL
...calling LoadLibrary( 'opengl32' ): succeeded
Couldn't find proc address for: wglGetExtensionsStringARB
Couldn't find proc address for: wglSwapIntervalEXT
Couldn't find proc address for: wglGetPixelFormatAttribivARB
Couldn't find proc address for: wglGetPixelFormatAttribfvARB
Couldn't find proc address for: wglChoosePixelFormatARB
Couldn't find proc address for: wglCreatePbufferARB
Couldn't find proc address for: wglGetPbufferDCARB
Couldn't find proc address for: wglReleasePbufferDCARB
Couldn't find proc address for: wglDestroyPbufferARB
Couldn't find proc address for: wglQueryPbufferARB
Couldn't find proc address for: wglBindTexImageARB
Couldn't find proc address for: wglReleaseTexImageARB
Couldn't find proc address for: wglSetPbufferAttribARB
...calling CDS: ok
...created window @ 0,0 (640x480)
Initializing OpenGL driver
...getting DC: succeeded
...attempting to use stereo
...PIXELFORMAT 7 selected
...creating GL context: succeeded
...making context current: succeeded
Couldn't find proc address for: wglGetExtensionsStringARB
Couldn't find proc address for: wglSwapIntervalEXT
Couldn't find proc address for: wglGetPixelFormatAttribivARB
Couldn't find proc address for: wglGetPixelFormatAttribfvARB
Couldn't find proc address for: wglChoosePixelFormatARB
Couldn't find proc address for: wglCreatePbufferARB
Couldn't find proc address for: wglGetPbufferDCARB
Couldn't find proc address for: wglReleasePbufferDCARB
Couldn't find proc address for: wglDestroyPbufferARB
Couldn't find proc address for: wglQueryPbufferARB
Couldn't find proc address for: wglBindTexImageARB
Couldn't find proc address for: wglReleaseTexImageARB
Couldn't find proc address for: wglSetPbufferAttribARB

------- Input Initialization -------
Initializing DirectInput...
mouse: DirectInput initialized.
keyboard: DirectInput initialized.
------------------------------------
sound: STEREO
X..GL_ARB_multitexture not found
X..GL_ARB_texture_env_combine not found
X..GL_ARB_texture_cube_map not found
X..GL_ARB_texture_env_dot3 not found
X..GL_ARB_texture_env_add not found
X..GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two not found
X..GL_ARB_texture_compression not found
X..GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic not found
X..GL_EXT_texture_lod not found
X..GL_1.4_texture_lod_bias not found
X..GL_EXT_shared_texture_palette not found
X..GL_EXT_texture3D not found
X..GL_EXT_stencil_wrap not found
X..GL_NV_register_combiners not found
X..GL_EXT_stencil_two_side not found
X..GL_ATI_separate_stencil not found
X..GL_ATI_fragment_shader not found
X..GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object not found
X..GL_ARB_vertex_program not found
X..GL_ARB_fragment_program not found
********************
ERROR: The current video card / driver combination does not support the necessary features
********************
Error during initialization
Shutting down OpenGL subsystem
...wglMakeCurrent( NULL, NULL ): success
...deleting GL context: success
...releasing DC: success
...destroying window
...resetting display
...shutting down QGL
...unloading OpenGL DLL
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#2 Post by AssPenny » Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:06 am

Make sure you have your dx9.0b or c drivers installed. Then i would try the Omega video drivers, they are a bit better for game compatibility. http://www.omegadrivers.net

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#3 Post by Biggie2 » Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:41 am

Will the omega drivers make my thinkpad run hotter?

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#4 Post by RoadHazard » Tue Aug 03, 2004 4:26 am

Yes, that looks like directx problem to me. Let us know how you like the game and how well the thinkpad can handle it. ;)

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#5 Post by fireracer7 » Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:49 am

I'm highly considering purchasing a T42 and wonder what peoples experiences with game play on it has been?

NecessaryEvil

#6 Post by NecessaryEvil » Tue Aug 03, 2004 9:10 am

RoadHazard wrote:Yes, that looks like directx problem to me. Let us know how you like the game and how well the thinkpad can handle it. ;)
Definitely DirectX Related!!!

Code: Select all

----- R_InitOpenGL ----- 
Initializing OpenGL subsystem 
...registered window class 
...registered fake window class 
...initializing QGL 
...calling LoadLibrary( 'opengl32' ): succeeded 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglGetExtensionsStringARB 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglSwapIntervalEXT 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglGetPixelFormatAttribivARB 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglGetPixelFormatAttribfvARB 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglChoosePixelFormatARB 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglCreatePbufferARB 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglGetPbufferDCARB 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglReleasePbufferDCARB 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglDestroyPbufferARB 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglQueryPbufferARB 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglBindTexImageARB 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglReleaseTexImageARB 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglSetPbufferAttribARB 
...calling CDS: ok 
...created window @ 0,0 (640x480) 
Initializing OpenGL driver 
...getting DC: succeeded 
...attempting to use stereo 
...PIXELFORMAT 7 selected 
...creating GL context: succeeded 
...making context current: succeeded 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglGetExtensionsStringARB 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglSwapIntervalEXT 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglGetPixelFormatAttribivARB 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglGetPixelFormatAttribfvARB 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglChoosePixelFormatARB 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglCreatePbufferARB 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglGetPbufferDCARB 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglReleasePbufferDCARB 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglDestroyPbufferARB 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglQueryPbufferARB 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglBindTexImageARB 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglReleaseTexImageARB 
Couldn't find proc address for: wglSetPbufferAttribARB 

------- Input Initialization ------- 
Initializing DirectInput... 
mouse: DirectInput initialized. 
keyboard: DirectInput initialized. 
------------------------------------ 
sound: STEREO 
X..GL_ARB_multitexture not found 
X..GL_ARB_texture_env_combine not found 
X..GL_ARB_texture_cube_map not found 
X..GL_ARB_texture_env_dot3 not found 
X..GL_ARB_texture_env_add not found 
X..GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two not found 
X..GL_ARB_texture_compression not found 
X..GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic not found 
X..GL_EXT_texture_lod not found 
X..GL_1.4_texture_lod_bias not found 
X..GL_EXT_shared_texture_palette not found 
X..GL_EXT_texture3D not found 
X..GL_EXT_stencil_wrap not found 
X..GL_NV_register_combiners not found 
X..GL_EXT_stencil_two_side not found 
X..GL_ATI_separate_stencil not found 
X..GL_ATI_fragment_shader not found 
X..GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object not found 
X..GL_ARB_vertex_program not found 
X..GL_ARB_fragment_program not found 
******************** 
ERROR: The current video card / driver combination does not support the necessary features 
******************** 
Error during initialization 
Shutting down OpenGL subsystem 
...wglMakeCurrent( NULL, NULL ): success 
...deleting GL context: success 
...releasing DC: success 
...destroying window 
...resetting display 
...shutting down QGL 
...unloading OpenGL DLL
Look at all those references to DirectX!

Since the FireGL T2 uses a different OGL Driver, maybe that's the problem. OpenGL works fine for me in Quake3 based games, but the OpenGL for Half-Life doesn't work.

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#7 Post by maingray » Tue Aug 03, 2004 9:33 am

I am running it (a copy found early in a Best buy) on my T42 (1.7MhZ, 9600 64Mb 512Mb RAM) with Omega Driver..no comments on performance yet, only just started. The game's auto-detect put me at 800x600 in "low" quality mode..but I gotta say, it still looks great.

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#8 Post by tselling » Tue Aug 03, 2004 11:05 am

I have found that the OpenGL winds up not working with most modded drivers and the FireGL cards. This is because the FireGL cards use a different openGL dll because they have hardware opengl rather than software opengl support. I would reinstall the IBM driver and retry.
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#9 Post by Biggie2 » Tue Aug 03, 2004 11:42 am

do omega drivers run hotter than the starndard fire gl... id swear my system is running hotter than it was b4

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doom 3 performance

#10 Post by blackatom » Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:00 pm

I've played doom 3 for about 7 hours on my T42 so far, and i have to say, i'm extremely impressed at how this performs. I have no trouble running it at 1024x768 in medium quality. Granted it does slow down sometimes if you have 3 enemies on the screen at once, due to the extra poly's and AI running. But i still keep the settings. I even put it on "ultra" quality and played around, it ran at 30+fps in ultra quality, but that was in the very beginning of the game which had no AI running and the rooms weren't very big...still i didn't expect it to be playable at all. I'd recomment 1024x768 at medium if you don't mind it getting a little choppy 5% of the time. And personally i can live w/ the choppy sections that occur rarely.

you can't compare this game to other DX9 games such as farcry or thief 3 in terms of expected performance becuase JC (john carmack) writes incredibly fast code. Not to say farcry has bad code, but doom 3 is just flawless. It's amazing how Halo runs like absolute [censored] and it came out 4 years ago on the xbox and whomever ported it to the pc (forgot the name..but it's not bungie) did a horrible job and made the game run like [censored] respectively.

Doom [censored] rocks, go buy it.

as far as HL2 on these things...we'll have to wait and see

btw i'm running the omega drivers.


1.7ghz, 768, 40 gig 5400rpm, 9600 64meg

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#11 Post by boardmonger » Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:08 pm

Blackatom what model of T42 are you running. I am still trying to decide between a 9600 64mb card and the FireGL 128mb.

I have been waiting to see if Doom3 was playable on the 9600 before I bought one. I figure if I can play Doom3 and HL2 on the 9600 it will be able to run most of the games I would want to play and save me $300-$500.

I know HL2 isn't out yet, but I am hoping to get a good feel for the next gen. games based off Doom3.

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#12 Post by blackatom » Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:17 pm

boardmonger:


i'm running the 2378FVU, the express model, the only thing i've done to it was buy 512mb from corsair.

you won't be disappointed in the performance of these things

1024x768
quake 1 697fps :)
quake 2 345fps
quake 3 200fps
doom 3 havn't run a benchmark, too busy mowing down imps, and pinky
3dmark01 9700 or so
3dmark03 2600 or so

i realize quake 1,2, and 3 are kinda irrelevent to benchmark against, but it's fun to a timedemo be over in about 1 second for quake 1

this thing runs just a little faster than my amd 2100+ w/ a 9500 pro 128meg, 512megs and a 120gig 7200rpm desktop. which i never use now but for file storage since the t42 kicks [censored]

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#13 Post by csv96 » Tue Aug 03, 2004 3:19 pm

tselling wrote:I have found that the OpenGL winds up not working with most modded drivers and the FireGL cards. This is because the FireGL cards use a different openGL dll because they have hardware opengl rather than software opengl support. I would reinstall the IBM driver and retry.
Thanks. I'll give it a try. But problem is that I'm connected to a 20" 1600x1200 LCD via DVI so I can't use the IBM drivers. Is there a way to trick the driver into thinking the FireGL T2 is actually a Radeon 9600?
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#14 Post by tselling » Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:06 pm

I don't think you can get the FireGL card to use the software openGL driver (direct X isn't a problem).

The Omega drivers are supposed to support the mobility FireGL now, but I have had no luck with them with my FireGL thinkpads so I cannot recommend them.

You can mod the modded drivers, but its fairly complicated in adding the FireGL sections to the ini and making sure the driver uses the FireGL sections instead the OpenGL sections.

I think the easiest thing would be to load the IBM drivers, then fire up "regedit". Go to HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\ATI Technologies\Desktop. In there is a text/numeric folder for the instance of the driver. Mine is something like "{811635AA-712C...}". Click on the folder. Scroll down thru the various settings on the right until you see "Hide..." Set those to all Zeroes and close RegEdit. Now you should be able to go to your Display Properties "Options" tab and uncheck Reduce Frequency on DVI high resolution displays. I am hoping that will fix your problem with the IBM drivers and DVI display but I don't have a high res dvi display to test.

csv96 wrote:
tselling wrote:I have found that the OpenGL winds up not working with most modded drivers and the FireGL cards. This is because the FireGL cards use a different openGL dll because they have hardware opengl rather than software opengl support. I would reinstall the IBM driver and retry.
Thanks. I'll give it a try. But problem is that I'm connected to a 20" 1600x1200 LCD via DVI so I can't use the IBM drivers. Is there a way to trick the driver into thinking the FireGL T2 is actually a Radeon 9600?
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#15 Post by AssPenny » Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:18 pm

Biggie2 wrote:do omega drivers run hotter than the starndard fire gl... id swear my system is running hotter than it was b4
Nope, they wont make your machine run hotter. That more than likely is just the game maxing out the cpu and hd more that what you have experienced before.

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#16 Post by T41mbi » Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:10 pm

Hi OT but has anyone been able to run Doom 3 on a ATI 9000 32MB Graphics card?

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#17 Post by mtbiac » Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:17 pm

I just installed doom 3 and I also CANNOT get it to run. I formatted the T42p when I got it and reinstalled XP pro with all the IBM drivers except for the Omegas...

I have a T42P GVU w/FireGL T2
I have the latest Omegas installed and Directx 9.0c

I click on the program to run Doom 3 and I get an error saying that Doom 3 has an error and has to shut down, and then they ask if i want to send an error report to microsoft.

ANY HELP!!? PLEASE

error report from the log

: <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-16"?>
<DATABASE>
<EXE NAME="Doom3.exe" FILTER="GRABMI_FILTER_PRIVACY">
<MATCHING_FILE NAME="Doom3.exe" SIZE="5427200" CHECKSUM="0xF3913BF8" BIN_FILE_VERSION="1.0.0.1" BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.0.1" PRODUCT_VERSION="1, 0, 0, 1" FILE_DESCRIPTION="DOOM 3" COMPANY_NAME="id Software" PRODUCT_NAME="DOOM 3" FILE_VERSION="1, 0, 0, 1" ORIGINAL_FILENAME="Doom.EXE" INTERNAL_NAME="DOOM 3" LEGAL_COPYRIGHT="Copyright (C) 2004 id Software" VERFILEDATEHI="0x0" VERFILEDATELO="0x0" VERFILEOS="0x4" VERFILETYPE="0x1" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x0" LINKER_VERSION="0x0" UPTO_BIN_FILE_VERSION="1.0.0.1" UPTO_BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.0.1" LINK_DATE="07/08/2004 21:47:26" UPTO_LINK_DATE="07/08/2004 21:47:26" VER_LANGUAGE="English (United States) [0x409]" />
<MATCHING_FILE NAME="Doom4.exe" SIZE="6659308" CHECKSUM="0x26DB1EF2" BIN_FILE_VERSION="1.0.0.1" BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.0.1" PRODUCT_VERSION="1, 0, 0, 1" FILE_DESCRIPTION="DOOM 3" COMPANY_NAME="id Software" PRODUCT_NAME="DOOM 3" FILE_VERSION="1, 0, 0, 1" ORIGINAL_FILENAME="Doom.EXE" INTERNAL_NAME="DOOM 3" LEGAL_COPYRIGHT="Copyright (C) 2004 id Software" VERFILEDATEHI="0x0" VERFILEDATELO="0x0" VERFILEOS="0x4" VERFILETYPE="0x1" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x0" LINKER_VERSION="0x0" UPTO_BIN_FILE_VERSION="1.0.0.1" UPTO_BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.0.1" LINK_DATE="07/08/2004 21:47:26" UPTO_LINK_DATE="07/08/2004 21:47:26" VER_LANGUAGE="English (United States) [0x409]" />
</EXE>
<EXE NAME="kernel32.dll" FILTER="GRABMI_FILTER_THISFILEONLY">
<MATCHING_FILE NAME="kernel32.dll" SIZE="926720" CHECKSUM="0x6262EEA5" BIN_FILE_VERSION="5.1.2600.0" BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="5.1.2600.0" PRODUCT_VERSION="5.1.2600.0" FILE_DESCRIPTION="Windows NT BASE API Client DLL" COMPANY_NAME="Microsoft Corporation" PRODUCT_NAME="Microsoft® Windows® Operating System" FILE_VERSION="5.1.2600.0 (xpclient.010817-1148)" ORIGINAL_FILENAME="kernel32" INTERNAL_NAME="kernel32" LEGAL_COPYRIGHT="© Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved." VERFILEDATEHI="0x0" VERFILEDATELO="0x0" VERFILEOS="0x40004" VERFILETYPE="0x2" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0xE8792" LINKER_VERSION="0x50001" UPTO_BIN_FILE_VERSION="5.1.2600.0" UPTO_BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="5.1.2600.0" LINK_DATE="08/18/2001 05:33:02" UPTO_LINK_DATE="08/18/2001 05:33:02" VER_LANGUAGE="English (United States) [0x409]" />
</EXE>
</DATABASE>

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#18 Post by G-Man » Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:40 pm

I don't know if it helps, but ATI has released a beta Catalyst driver especially for DOOM3. It should improve the performance on ATI based VPUs. Use it with Patje's mobility modder. Maybe...

Doom 3: CATALYST 4.9 BETA

Regards,
G-Man

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#19 Post by mtbiac » Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:49 pm

ah nice, I'll give that a try. Will this driver work fine for other games as well though?

I did make some progress, I disabled hardware acceleration of OpenGL in the Omega driver's settings, but now I'm getting the same error as the creator of this thread. I installed directx 9.0c so thats not the problem.

what should I do now? argh

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#20 Post by G-Man » Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:14 pm

mtbiac wrote:Will this driver work fine for other games as well though?
Yes, it will. It's the same driver as the previous version but with some Doom3 additions.

Regards,
G-Man

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#21 Post by mtbiac » Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:20 pm

AHHHHHHH

I uninstalled the Omegas and tried to install that Doom 3 optimited Catalyst 4.9 driver - says I have wrong hardware

I then try to install regulat ATI driver that I downloaded for FireGL T2 128mb (maybe not mobile version?) - wont install either

so I'm using the standard drivers XP provides, but it says they're made by ATI (maybe it automatically rolled back to original IBM drivers from before Catalyst?) - ANYWAYS - IT RUNS with these drivers. BUT, at 800x600 on med. detail it lags like hell, unplayable.

PLEASE HELP!!

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#22 Post by csv96 » Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:36 pm

mtbiac wrote:AHHHHHHH
I then try to install regulat ATI driver that I downloaded for FireGL T2 128mb (maybe not mobile version?) - wont install either
By regular do you mean the Catalyst driver from ATI's website (http://www.ati.com)? Or the IBM Thinkpad driver? If you mean the Catalyst driver, you have to modify it first using Patje's mobility modder (http://www.driverheaven.net/patje/).
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#23 Post by G-Man » Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:38 pm

Yep, as csv mentioned you need Patje's mobility modder for the (ATI Doom3) driver I posted.

Regards,
G-Man

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#24 Post by mtbiac » Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:41 pm

doh!!

anything special I should do while installing or just follow directions? I hope this works...

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#25 Post by G-Man » Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:42 pm

Nothing special. Just follow the instructions.

Regards,
G-Man

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#26 Post by mtbiac » Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:42 pm

csv96 wrote:
mtbiac wrote:AHHHHHHH
I then try to install regulat ATI driver that I downloaded for FireGL T2 128mb (maybe not mobile version?) - wont install either
By regular do you mean the Catalyst driver from ATI's website (http://www.ati.com)? Or the IBM Thinkpad driver? If you mean the Catalyst driver, you have to modify it first using Patje's mobility modder (http://www.driverheaven.net/patje/).
catalyst from ATI website. Turns out that I got it to install by manually selecting the drivers, i'm currently restarting the T42p to see if Doom 3 will now run better. If not, I'll try patje's with the Doom 3 optimized drivers...

Edit: well that was retarded, couldnt boot cause I had wrong drivers so now I'm in safe mode sorting it out...

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#27 Post by mtbiac » Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:33 pm

Installed the Doom 3 optimized Catalyst drivers, but I cant get the resolution of the LCD to go above 1280x1024 for some reason. It will allow me to adjust a 2nd monitors resolution upto 1900xsomething though

is this just a bug or did I miss something? Going to try regular catalyst FireGL T2 drivers now. Or should I try something else?

thanks

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#28 Post by csv96 » Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:03 pm

mtbiac wrote:Installed the Doom 3 optimized Catalyst drivers, but I cant get the resolution of the LCD to go above 1280x1024 for some reason.
Even after applying Patje's mod?
Thinkpad X200s w/ Ultrabase
C2D SL9600 / 8GB / 160GB X25-M G2 / BD MULTI / 12.1" WXGA / INTEL 4500MHD / INTEL 5150 / BT / AT&T WWAN / W7

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#29 Post by mtbiac » Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:12 pm

yeap, without patje they dont install at all

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#30 Post by mtbiac » Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:20 pm

went back to the latest catalyst, patched with patje, and the game still runs slow as hell even at 640x480 and low detail. Am I doing something wrong?

my desktop has the following specs and can play Doom 3 with HIGH detail at 1280x1024 at about 25fps (just well enough to be playable)

P4 2.26gb @ 2.63ghz
512mb pc2700
ATI 9700 non pro 128mb
7.2k 8mb cache 80gb HD

HELP!

edit: PS: I'm getting 8992 in 3dmark01. I got 8400 with the IBM drivers and then 8800 with the Omegas....

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