what does a R51 thinkpad compare to with the T series?

[bfgun]

looking for a laptop for a friend of mine - saw one on craigslist for 800 (for a new R51e) but seeing the prices come with a rebate, i'm going to try and see if i can get the seller to reduce the price.

Now the question i have is, which model would this compare to with in terms of hardware reliability? This might need to be posted in the R series forum, but since i'm talking about 2 diff machines, i opted for this topic because there are more postings.

Or if anyone knows where i can find some superb deals for t series laptops, please either PM me or post 'em on here.

Thanks!

[gunston]

R series is heavier and bulkier than T4x series... for sure

[christopher_wolf]

The reliability of the two is pretty much the same; exactly the same, actually, if you leave them on a desk all the time. The T4X Series is designed to be the ultimate Thinkpad in a slimline form factor, so it is slimmed down and has an alloy screen backing. The R Series is heavier and more bulky, but that was intended for its role.

[fschwep]

I'm typing this on an R51 as my T42 is in repair for a defective motherboard. A few entirely subjective observations here.
- the T4x is a marvelous laptop, light, strong and extremely ergonomic; if it works. They seem to suffer from defective mobo's relatively often if one reads the messages here. Their USB ports tend to be vulnerable to damage by external hardware using a bit too much current, as well as to simple mechanical failure.
- I don't know if these issues are similar with the R51; I have the impression one reads about it less often in the R-series forum.
- The R51 is heavier and thicker than the T4x, but it is by itself not an excessively thick or heavy laptop, it is a middleweight. It is built quite sturdily, although it has no titanium-reinforced shell. But it is no more flexible than a T42. Strong steel hinges. The screen is excellent even though the resolution is not huge; you can work on this machine all day.
- The R51 does the same things as a T42 in real life. Depending on the specs it will have no separate GeForce videosystem with its own video RAM, but it will use shared main RAM for video use, for instance. It has just one PCMCIA slot instead of two, but it does have firewire whereas the T42 (in its original guise at least) had not.
Both are about equally expandable, have largely similar keyboards (meaning excellent), the same touchpad/trackpoint combination, and they can be used with the same batteries and the same docking stations. It was for the latter reason that I got an R51 as a backup for my T42: when the latter broke down I just dropped the R51 in the MiniDock and could continue working with all the external hardware.
The price of the R51 is about two thirds or maybe even less than that of a similarly specified T4x. Given that the service reputation of Lenovo seems to be deteriorating by the day compared to the golden reputation of IBM in the old days (which was to be expected, many will say) and that the newer Lonovo branded laptops appear to be run-of-the-mill machines no better than those of the competition (no trackpoints, more useless chrome), it might be prudent at this time to invest in TWO highly specified R51's (meaning versions that come with a DVD multiburner and a lot of additional RAM) that are still originally designed by the IBM team, instead of paying for ONE T4x. That way you will have a spare. Unless you travel a lot and are prepared to pay through the nose for the lower weight and lesser bulk of the T-series.

I'm sorry to have to say this, but my T42 now has been in for a mobo replacement (in France with IBM/Lenovo service) for several weeks and they seem to be out of motherboard stock... I'm afraid this will only get worse as the series gets older and Lenovo concentrates on their own-branded series.

[christopher_wolf]

I'm typing this on an R51 as my T42 is in repair for a defective motherboard. A few entirely subjective observations here.
- the T4x is a marvelous laptop, light, strong and extremely ergonomic; if it works. They seem to suffer from defective mobo's relatively often if one reads the messages here. Their USB ports tend to be vulnerable to damage by external hardware using a bit too much current, as well as to simple mechanical failure.
- I don't know if these issues are similar with the R51; I have the impression one reads about it less often in the R-series forum.
- The R51 is heavier and thicker than the T4x, but it is by itself not an excessively thick or heavy laptop, it is a middleweight. It is built quite sturdily, although it has no titanium-reinforced shell. But it is no more flexible than a T42. Strong steel hinges. The screen is excellent even though the resolution is not huge; you can work on this machine all day.
- The R51 does the same things as a T42 in real life. Depending on the specs it will have no separate GeForce videosystem with its own video RAM, but it will use shared main RAM for video use, for instance. It has just one PCMCIA slot instead of two, but it does have firewire whereas the T42 (in its original guise at least) had not.
Both are about equally expandable, have largely similar keyboards (meaning excellent), the same touchpad/trackpoint combination, and they can be used with the same batteries and the same docking stations. It was for the latter reason that I got an R51 as a backup for my T42: when the latter broke down I just dropped the R51 in the MiniDock and could continue working with all the external hardware.
The price of the R51 is about two thirds or maybe even less than that of a similarly specified T4x. Given that the service reputation of Lenovo seems to be deteriorating by the day compared to the golden reputation of IBM in the old days (which was to be expected, many will say) and that the newer Lonovo branded laptops appear to be run-of-the-mill machines no better than those of the competition (no trackpoints, more useless chrome), it might be prudent at this time to invest in TWO highly specified R51's (meaning versions that come with a DVD multiburner and a lot of additional RAM) that are still originally designed by the IBM team, instead of paying for ONE T4x. That way you will have a spare. Unless you travel a lot and are prepared to pay through the nose for the lower weight and lesser bulk of the T-series.

I'm sorry to have to say this, but my T42 now has been in for a mobo replacement (in France with IBM/Lenovo service) for several weeks and they seem to be out of motherboard stock... I'm afraid this will only get worse as the series gets older and Lenovo concentrates on their own-branded series.

You know, I can't see what the T42 being in repair that much has to do with Lenovo on their own branded series; Lenovo came up with a 3000 Series mainly as their "consumer" grade laptops where they could field test things and practice, so to speak, without interfering with the Thinkpads. Service? That was handed out to 3rd party contractors way before Lenovo. Further, what do the Lenovo laptops have to do with Thinkpads? Just because they have the Thinkpad line doesn't mean they can't come up with some of their own budget designs and mass market them to cash in on that, very large, part of the laptop market; remember, they are a business and do have to come up with ways to make a profit and not just cater to every single whim that people can come up with. Comparing a Thinkpad to a 3000 Series is a fallicious assumption at best. Also, the service needed for both is still markedly different, so much so that I am sure the techs are trained differently or are given different manuals to begin with at the very least.

[fschwep]

You know, I can't see what the T42 being in repair that much has to do with Lenovo on their own branded series; Lenovo came up with a 3000 Series mainly as their "consumer" grade laptops where they could field test things and practice, so to speak, without interfering with the Thinkpads. Service? That was handed out to 3rd party contractors way before Lenovo. Further, what do the Lenovo laptops have to do with Thinkpads? Just because they have the Thinkpad line doesn't mean they can't come up with some of their own budget designs and mass market them to cash in on that, very large, part of the laptop market; remember, they are a business and do have to come up with ways to make a profit and not just cater to every single whim that people can come up with. Comparing a Thinkpad to a 3000 Series is a fallicious assumption at best. Also, the service needed for both is still markedly different, so much so that I am sure the techs are trained differently or are given different manuals to begin with at the very least.

My point is this: IBM built ThinkPads. Period. They apparently had a service organisation in accordance with the outstanding quality of those laptops. There was no cheap consumer line, so everyone got the same good level of service. As soon as a company, in todays world of 'efficiency', 'stockholder value' and globalization, starts turning out cheap consumer stuff they will go downhill as a whole. Either you deliver quality, and only that, at a price, or you sell crap. Once you start doing the latter you will not be able to keep up the former.
The fact that I personally have a T42 in repair for, now, three weeks and that it may take another week, Lenovo effectively providing a one-month pickup and return service where I paid through the nose *to IBM* for a 3-year next-business day on-site warranty, is typical. I don't believe the IBM of old would have allowed that to happen. I dream that they woud have provided me with a replacement machine for the time being.
Which is why I said: get two original IBM ThinkPads now and keep one of them as a backup.

Look at what happened to Psion. Nobody has managed to build a pocketable computer as good (as in *useful*) as the 5mx was. The world wanted to play games and mess around with sloppy handwriting recognition on PDAs with a colour screen and a battery life measured in hours. Exit the 5mx with its mono screen but weeks-long battery life and, in particular, its excellent keyboard on which one could bash out a novel (now where have we heard that as well?). Psion adepts often keep two of them. I did. I'm now on the second and I hope it will last another few years. 'True' ThinkPads may go the same way.

[JaneL]

There was no cheap consumer line

Two words - i series.

[christopher_wolf]

There was no cheap consumer line

Two words - i series.

Yeah, those were made, under license, by Acer for IBM. They were a serious departure from the main ideals behind Thinkpads.

[Kyocera]

Unfortunately fscwep people seldom post the positive things that are happening with lenovo today everyone is so focused on bringing them down before they get a chance to prove themselves. I've noticed a particular dark side to your posts about ibm/lenovo, especially the one I deleted about them crashing as much as the space shuttle, that was in poor taste, bashing is great in off topic and that is where this thread is headed.

[fschwep]

Unfortunately fscwep people seldom post the positive things that are happening with lenovo today everyone is so focused on bringing them down before they get a chance to prove themselves. I've noticed a particular dark side to your posts about ibm/lenovo, especially the one I deleted about them crashing as much as the space shuttle, that was in poor taste, bashing is great in off topic and that is where this thread is headed.

Well, sorry about the dark side to my posts. The joke about the space shuttle was indeed misplaced (and yes, there was indeed the unfortunate i-series; my dad has one that never moved out of his house and still has a broken hinge... so I was wrong on that account). I do happen to depend totally on my computers, meaning ThinkPads these days, to earn my living and got into a rather dark mood when my T42, a machine I really liked, gave up on me without warning and subsequently the service was not what I had paid for (next day on-site), or expected to get (pickup and turnaround in a week or so). If it had been quickly returned and all had been well I would have been the first to praise that. To be honest, IBM/Lenovo France are quite friendly and professional on the phone, the courier arrived in just over a day, waited for me to pack the TP in the box and obviously knew his business. I phoned today, a friendly young lady picked up the phone after two rings, seemed well informed and was able to tell me that a new load of 20 motherboards of the type they need for my T42 (2373 FWG) is supposed to arrive on Monday and I might have my machine back by next Wednesday...

Over the years I have invested my personal money for my one-man copywriting business in six different ThinkPads, picking them very consciously over, amongst others, Toshiba (which I had used when employed by an oil company), Dell, HP/Compaqs, Acers etc. The clincher has always been the keyboard. I've always seen them as Business Machines, not toys, and am in the habit of loading them up with a lot of software (like both MS and Corel Office suites, full Acrobat, Paintshop Pro X, RAW photo development software, web authoring software, time logging software, a GPS-enabled cartography program with GBs of maps, etc.), hooking up a lot of hardware (ISDN modem, USB harddrive, USB DVD burner, flatscreen and transparency scanners, colour printer, card reader, GPS receiver, external monitor, wireless mouse, numeric keyboard, external diskette drive, mostly through a MiniDock) and using them 8 to 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. My T42 failed after 20 months of such heavy use. It also used to bounce around in the back of my van and was carried around in a sleeve in an overstuffed Tenba Traveler shoulder bag. I rebooted once in three days to clear the Windows memory and used sleep mode most of the time, no matter if it was in its dock or somewhere else (i.e. suddenly not connected to hardware it was connected to when it had gone to sleep). And we live in a house that is perpetually under construction with lots of (wood)dust.
It mostly Just Worked. So I got into an instant depression when it Just Quit.
Hopefully my sunny side will show up again.

[mg]

Some T and R models are very related. For example, a T43 and an R52 use the same firmware for the embedded controller, which means they must be pretty much identical except for probably the case quality (titanium/magnesium), GPU, and individually replaceable parts. Check which BIOS or EC firmware updates a model requires, and there all supported models are listed in the README file.

[GomJabbar]

I'm sorry to have to say this, but my T42 now has been in for a mobo replacement (in France with IBM/Lenovo service) for several weeks and they seem to be out of motherboard stock... I'm afraid this will only get worse as the series gets older and Lenovo concentrates on their own-branded series.

I can sympathize with your predicament. I can understand your frustration and anger.

While I don't side with "The sky is falling" group, that does not mean that I will give Lenovo a free ride either. Give praise where praise is due, and post your experiences whether they be good or bad.

Personally, I have nothing to complain about. I have not had any trouble with my ThinkPads to date that was not caused by user error (myself). I believe the ThinkPad line is the best out there for general home and business use. While some gamers might be better served with one of the specialized gaming laptops, most laptop users would be better served with a ThinkPad - one reason being that the ergonomics of the ThinkPads are top-notch. ThinkPads are quality built and should last the user a long time. IBM and Lenovo has done, and is continuing to do, a fine job keeping drivers up-to-date, and in providing exclusive useful software.

That said, some of the recent posts I have seen have indicated that too many users are not getting quality warranty service. Hopefully this is just a temporary glitch, but we all do need to be aware of what various users are experiencing so that we can continue to make wise decisions in our laptop purchases.

[fschwep]

That said, some of the recent posts I have seen have indicated that too many users are not getting quality warranty service. Hopefully this is just a temporary glitch, but we all do need to be aware of what various users are experiencing so that we can continue to make wise decisions in our laptop purchases.

My T42 was returned early this morning (07:30 to be exact) by courier after it has been serviced. The total three-week delay was caused by the mobo being out of stock. To be honest, IBM service France picked up the phone very rapidly every time, they were friendly, knew their business and transport was perfectly organized (when I called yesterday around 16:00 they were closing up the machine after the mobo had just been replaced, and getting it to me at 07:30 am at a very rural location the next morning is just awesome). It looks like new, has obviously been cleaned and everything seems to work as before.

After having worked on my backup R51 for three weeks I now notice the differences more.
The T42 (14 inch version) is of course much thinner, making it a tad more comfortable to type on as I don't have to lift my hands as far from the desk. The palmrest seems to flex a bit more that on the R51 and my impression is that the keys on the R51 have a tiny bit more travel (both are excellent keyboards in any case).
It's mostly a matter of weight and cost. If you don't carry it around a lot, the R51 may be an excellent alternative to the T42 as they are practically identical where connectivity and power is concerned.

[kstuart]

As soon as a company, in todays world of 'efficiency', 'stockholder value' and globalization, starts turning out cheap consumer stuff they will go downhill as a whole. Either you deliver quality, and only that, at a price, or you sell crap. Once you start doing the latter you will not be able to keep up the former.

I had to comment that I find this to be largely false in reality.

A great example is Honda - years of producing low-priced consumer cars efficiently across the globe that consistently work better and with less problems than - for example - Mercedes Benz cars of the last ten years that cost several times as much.

In a different way, Toyota's line of inexpensive consumer vehicles does not prevent them from making a highly regarded line of high-end "Lexus" vehicles that are often chosen over the comparable German makes.

And just to give an example in a third area, Rossignol has never had problems making every level of consumer skis with fine quality, while at the same time, producing racing skis that carried their owners to many Olympic Gold medals and World Cup titles.

[christopher_wolf]

As long as you have a well known line of products that have an image, reputation, and legendary abilities, much like the Thinkpads, you can afford to start another line, say the 3000 Series, to serve a consumer grade market and the halo effect comes into play.

[fschwep]

To return to the question (I caused the divergence myself) of the R51 vs the T42: just an hour ago I noticed my girlfriend talking on the phone and *leaning* with both elbows on the closed lid of her R51. Apparently it can take that. It's not the most elegant laptop around with that rather thick lid, but it is built like a tank. Talking about fair quality at a decent price, this is an example.

[Aroc]

The R51e is a little different than the R51. THe -e model is the conomy model of the R series and lacks some features/upgradability. The main downside to the R-series (non-e) is ahte added bulk and weight over a T-series. Otherwise they are pretty much the same. Ask Brainpicker about that one.