Should I get rid of my Thinkpads?

Message

rickg17 · #1 Post by **rickg17** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:21 pm

OK, A couple of years ago I bought a used T21 off eBay. It worked well for a bit (runs Ubuntu great), but the mobo is getting flaky... it flexes near the memory slots and, well, that's not good for system stability...

So about 17 months ago (Feb 2005) I bought a new T42 2378-FVU from IBM. Loved it... nice, fast, stable... until this July. That's right, a few months out of warranty and... the mobo is bad. If you search for overheating and ATI Radeon, you'll find a bunch of threads on this issue.. the ATI overheats, the screen grey, then blues and shuts down. To fix this will cost $425. The thing is, I paid $1450 for the machine... Hell, for $2000 I could have bought a cheap $1000 machine, thrown it in the trash, and bought a new Core Duo entry machine!!.

Yes, I'll lobby Lenovo to do the right thing and replace the mobo for free... but I'm wondering if the stability of Thinkpads is just overrated... I mean two machines, BOTH with mobo issues?? And what happens if I pay the money and in 13 or 14 more months, the mobo dies again?

I'm thinking of doing the repair, selling the machine and getting oh, I don't know... a Macbook or something. Before I do, a couple of questions to the community...

1) have other people run into this issue and done the new mobo? How did that work... did the new mobo last, or is this one of those things that recurs?

2) Am I just having bad luck, or am I right that Thinkpads are no longer deserving of their reputations as bulletproof laptops?

Website · #2 Post by **tfflivemb2** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:30 pm

Yeah, you should get rid of them...just send them to me.

Seriously though, are you careful with them, in that you lift them with two hands? I have seen quite a few bad system boards that are the result of flexing, specifically with users that pick them up by the corner. One guy specifically had this problem on an T23 about a month after I sold it to him. He swore that he ALWAYS picks it up with two hands.....after I replaced the system board, he came by and picked it up. Since I doubted that he "always" picked it up with two hands, I left it sitting on a low counter when he got there. Sure enough he picked it up by just one corner to move it to the higher counter top.

Yes, Thinkpads are built like tanks, but no matter who makes the laptop, there will always be flexing, unless they are completely encased in steel.

pianowizard · #3 Post by **pianowizard** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:35 pm

Do you leave your computer on 24/7? That's not such a good idea for laptops. You will hear people say they never turn off their laptops and they still work fine, but the chance of overheating increases.

rickg17 · #4 Post by **rickg17** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:39 pm

Yes, I do pick it up one handed. Did that with a Powerbook for 2.5 years w/o incident. I'm NOT about to wander around like the thing is made of glass... I simply don't abuse the thing at all... I don't bang it around, etc... And, sorry, but if it can't take being picked up one handed then it's NOT 'built like a tank'

Do I leave it on 24/7... well yes, in the sense that I close the lid and send it into suspend, no in the ssne that it's not on and powered 24/7. And, frankly, even if I did, it should not have died less than a year an aa half into its life.

pianowizard · #5 Post by **pianowizard** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:47 pm

rickg17 wrote:And, sorry, but if it can't take being picked up one handed then it's NOT 'built like a tank'

I have used about a dozen Thinkpads now and agree with you that most of them aren't built like a tank. They all flex a little bit, especially the T43. The most tank-like laptop I have ever owned is, believe it or not, a Dell, the Inspiron 700m. It's ideal for people who like to pick up their laptops with one hand!

Website · #6 Post by **tfflivemb2** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:50 pm

rickg17 wrote:Yes, I do pick it up one handed. Did that with a Powerbook for 2.5 years w/o incident. I'm NOT about to wander around like the thing is made of glass... I simply don't abuse the thing at all... I don't bang it around, etc... And, sorry, but if it can't take being picked up one handed then it's NOT 'built like a tank'

I'm not saying that you have to treat it like glass, but you do have to be careful with them....or with anything that is made up of electronic components. Many laptops, thinkpads included will handle the one-handed pick up for quite some time, but that doesn't mean that you should do it. Luck follows many people...I on the other hand have a black cloud that follows me everywhere I go.

Yes, I do think that they are made like tanks, in a general sense. They have been dropped from certain distances, run over by cars, left out in bad/cold weather and survived for the most part. Pick up any Dell, HP, Gateway, etc and see how many will survive any of the above examples.

rickg17 · #7 Post by **rickg17** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:52 pm

BTW, my last post might have sounded a bit harsh.. I do appreciate the input, and, while I don't walk around a lot with the T42 one handed, I often do grab it and move it that way... and I think for a laptop that commands a premium I should get something that's durable enough to take that, at least for 2-3 years. For it to fail just beyond the one year period is, frankly, a ripoff. It doesn't help that they market this thing as if it's durable...

You see, I don't CARE if it deals well with being left outside or run over... that's not a typical use case, so engineering for it is just showing off. Being able to pickup a laptop one handed, on the other, er, hand... IS a typical use case and should be, um, handled by a company that markets their laptops as being very durable.

Like I said, I could buy two machines for what this will cost me.

agarza · #8 Post by **agarza** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:23 pm

I've owned 3 Thinkpads:

- First one was bought in September 2001:
Thinkpad A22e, 800MHz Celeron, 128MB RAM (upgraded to 256MB), 20GB H. I used it almost 24/7. Laptop is very quiet, very sturdy materials. Gotta love it. However the graphics were too old (ATi RAGE Mobility-M)

- Then myt familiy got in September 2002:
Thinkpad T30, 1.6GHz Pentium 4-M, 256MB RAM (Upgraded to 768MB), 30GB HDD, 16MB ATi Mobility 7500). The laptop became mine in 2004. Then I did the same usage (24/7) downloading things non-stop. No problems at all.
Recently, about 3 months ago I got the 1st memory slot problem, but I fixed it with a piece of paper pressing against the DIMM.

- Then starting August this year, I bought a:
Thinkpad T42p, stock model, 2373-GEG mothoerboard (supposedly a T41p), 1024MB RAM, 128MB ATi FireGL T2, 40GB 5400rpm HDD.
I've opened it to replace the thermal compound to Arctic Silver 5.
Still the thing gets too hot (52C CPU idling) but have not had any worries

I suggest you hold your Thinkpad with both hands, especially the T4x models since they're so thin that the mobo could flex easily.

I once had to change the HDD from my A22e because somehow it damaged. The T30 has been the most reliable laptop I've ever owned. And I hope the T42p get at least more than 3 years life.

rickg17 · #9 Post by **rickg17** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:26 pm

From what I've read, the issue is that the Radeon loses contact with the heatsink... Do you think I can remove the mobo and do something to force these two into contact?

BTW, can you elaborate on "I've opened it to replace the thermal compound to Arctic Silver 5. " Do you have a link showing how to do this?

Website · #10 Post by **tfflivemb2** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:44 pm

rickg17 wrote:Do you have a link showing how to do this?

You can use the Hardware Maintenance Manual to show you how to get to it.

Just be careful with the amount of AC5 that you add...use a VERY thin layer.

#11 Post by **jdhurst** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:01 pm

I have had my TP fall off a night table while on and open and survive. I have had other knocks and bangs without damage. And yet I had to replace the system board under warranty because of a bad board connection. Cold solder joint? Or flex? who knows. The T series seems decently reliable to me. ... JD Hurst

cmarti · #12 Post by **cmarti** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:07 pm

rickg17 wrote:From what I've read, the issue is that the Radeon loses contact with the heatsink... Do you think I can remove the mobo and do something to force these two into contact?

If that does not work here is one motherboard that is new for sale.

rickg17 · #13 Post by **rickg17** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:10 pm

Part of the thing that annoys me about this is that it happened in month 16... 3 years post warranty? Can't complain. Inside of warranty? Annoying, but covered, so it's not costing me anything. But four months post warranty? Grr....

rickg17 · #14 Post by **rickg17** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:29 pm

cmarti... thanks. I'm not sure if that will work (32m video card, I have the 1400x1050 screen) but the price is right... I'll keep an eye out.

snife · #15 Post by **snife** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:32 pm

I dont think 17 months is just over 12 months personally and if you plan to keep your machine for several years and are not comfortable with your own repairs then you should really purchase an extended warranty. I'm not being rotten but its unfair to expect out of warranty repairs to be done when some people purchase the extended warranty.

Lifting the system with one hand may be typical usage but it is still bad usage, i'm not saying i dont do it (I also hold them by the top of the screen) but I know I shouldn't, especially on a 1" system with a bit of weight to it. That said, Lenovo have obviously listened to concerns and introduced the roll cage to stop any problems from this type of handling.

I don't think a macbook can compete with a thinkpad for durability, I don't think many manufacturers could but you have to remember it is still a computer and can be damaged (although a lot of this is down to luck as I am notoriously hard on mines dropping them and such and don't experience much more than broken plastic).

agarza · #16 Post by **agarza** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:47 pm

rickg17 wrote:From what I've read, the issue is that the Radeon loses contact with the heatsink... Do you think I can remove the mobo and do something to force these two into contact?

BTW, can you elaborate on "I've opened it to replace the thermal compound to Arctic Silver 5. " Do you have a link showing how to do this?

So your laptop is in warranty?
Is it working now or is dead??

Are you interested in applying AS5 in the CPU/GPU, read nirvana001 thread in the T4x section.

rickg17 · #17 Post by **rickg17** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:53 pm

For warranty purposes I agree.. 17 isn't just past 12... But it isn't exactly a long time past, either. ONe reason I don't usually buy extended warranties is that the products don't fail until far beyond the warranty. And, really, shouldn't this be the case for a product priced at a premium lie the Thinkpad? Should I really expect that there's a significant chance of failure within 2 years? And if so... why the heck does the product deserve to command a premium price?

I can't agree that picking a laptop up one handed is bad usage. A product should be engineered for how it is actually used... If a plurality of people do what I've done, then the product needs to be engineered and built to deal with that. Whether it deals with falling, being left in the snow or being run over is meaningless - those can't be called reasonable use cases.

What you advocate is what I've seen far too often in technology companies (I've worked in the industry for 15 years) - blaming the customer for breaking the product through normal use vs blaming the product for not being engineered to deal with how it's really used.

rickg17 · #18 Post by **rickg17** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:55 pm

benottomex wrote:
rickg17 wrote:From what I've read, the issue is that the Radeon loses contact with the heatsink... Do you think I can remove the mobo and do something to force these two into contact?

BTW, can you elaborate on "I've opened it to replace the thermal compound to Arctic Silver 5. " Do you have a link showing how to do this?
So your laptop is in warranty?
Is it working now or is dead??

Are you interested in applying AS5 in the CPU/GPU, read nirvana001 thread in the T4x section.

Out of warranty... it works but eventually overheats...

ciorbarece · #19 Post by **ciorbarece** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:15 pm

I fully agree that picking up a thinkpad with one hand will cause flexing problems with the mobo after a while, that's for sure. I had the same problem with my T40 which I liked to pick up by the bottom left corner while it was open. After 3 months of doing this, which I didn't do before, pressing the palmrest on the left side resulted in system freezes and LCD failure. IBM replaced my mobo but the problem occured again ! Only after they replaced the whole bottom case and the keyboard the problem stayed away.

So...picking up your thinkpad with one hand especially by the bottom left corner is really, really bad for the machine.

When I have to carry my thinkpad around for example from the living room to the kitchen (where I smoke by the way) I suggest to close it and grab it by the battery to carry it under your arm. This way you still can carry it with one hand.

But picking it up with one hand, especially by the left bottom corner will damage the mobo, and unfortunately the problems will come only after some time, so you might think that this way of picking it up is no problem but it really, really is. Even replacing the mobo with a new one won't help, because if the case was flexed too much it will kill your precious new mobo instantly! The mobo is screwed to the bottom case, as well as the keyboard which is screwed to the case above the keyboard. I guess that a flexed bottom case will drag even a new mobo down causing it to flex and then break again. Pretty ugly. If anybody reads this, just don't grab it like that !

My thinkpad T40 is now 2 years and 9 months young, I own it since about 1,5 years, i love it and I haven't spotted any other mechanical weakness yet. I knock on wood.

psteven · #20 Post by **psteven** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:40 pm

i use a tekstyl bag on my t42 which acts as a secondary shell for the laptop , it adds bulk but solves the flexing issue and offers great protection . Check out www.tekstyl.com

newmanm · #21 Post by **newmanm** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:23 am

[quote="rickg17"] ONe reason I don't usually buy extended warranties is that the products don't fail until far beyond the warranty.

I agree for some of my other electronic gear. most of the time I'm ready to buy a new product by the time of failure, but for laptops, I think the extended warranty is a pretty good deal. laptop repairs seem very expensive to me.

repairs are quick, easy, and cheap when you have an extended warranty.

JohnDrake · #22 Post by **JohnDrake** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:19 am

3 yr warranty on a device this complex/expensive that gets carried around a lot is a good idea.

If it is going to be a stay at home, sit on one desk all the time laptop, then maybe a 1yr is ok.

christopher_wolf · #23 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:44 pm

I can say the following about 95% of the problems I have ever encountered with Thinkpads can be summed up as follows; the user did it, period. From spills, to bad mobos, viruses and trojans, to general misuse. Engineering it from the standpoint of durability and overall robustness is great, but remember...they can't predict every single thing that could happen to it, 90% probably, but not everything. This has to be kept in mind that something that has to deal with getting run over by a vehicle also has to deal with a user mistaking the S-Video port on the side for a PS/2 connector and jamming a mouse PS/2 plug in there or somehow failing to realize that not caring for the system for a long period of time *will* affect its reliability; the military requires some pretty durable and robust systems, but they don't take that for granted and toss their components on a grass field just because they are "supposed to be tough." Quite to the contrary, they are able to take the utmost care of the equipment.

Isaac000 · #24 Post by **Isaac000** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:38 pm

I've only had ... 2 Thinkpads. That's because they last so [censored] long. My first was a 770X, which I still have and it's still functioning.

It's not like it doesn't go anywhere, I took it with me to school in my backpack on my bicycle.

My 2nd machine is a T40p which is still going strong as well. ZERO problems. Also got carted around everywhere. I'm somewhat careful with my things, but I hardly treat them like glass.

BTW, I'm down in Silicon Valley. Most of our vendors and customers whip out Thinkpads as the laptop of choice. Us included! My work Thinkpad gets beaten around quite a bit (it's not mine, see

, but it has no problems. We've an office full of Thinkpads, and I don't think any of them have problems. The ones that supposedly had problems were software. (the owners gave them up, I refresh them for the lab and it always turns out to be working fine).

coreman · #25 Post by **coreman** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:24 am

Well my T30 MOBO died after (6) months...while I love TP in general, it is primarily because of the keypad and not because of superior toughness.

I presently have T41 and have had some stability problems but nothing major. My company used to use TP exclusively but due to constant MOBO or LCD failures went to another brand for a while...however they returned to IBM because everyone complained about the keyboards on the other brand.

The TP keyboard is second to none and let's face it, that and the LCD are the two primary interfaces with users...

But for laptops that cost >$1200...extended warranties are worth the money...for cheaper laptops, maybe not...depends on final price. IMHO

christopher_wolf · #26 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:45 am

coreman wrote: My company used to use TP exclusively but due to constant MOBO or LCD failures went to another brand for a while...however they returned to IBM because everyone complained about the keyboards on the other brand.

Constant failure? Or was it constant ignorance by the users, and possibly some of the IT staff, as how one goes about handling mobile systems and how to treat them, regardless of maker, for optimal lifetime? I think you will find it is the latter as that is a fairly big problem for just about any large corporation or institution.

pianowizard · #27 Post by **pianowizard** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:42 pm

coreman wrote:My company used to use TP exclusively but due to constant MOBO or LCD failures went to another brand for a while...

After switching to another brand (what was it? Dell?), did the failure rates go down?

NtegrA · #28 Post by **NtegrA** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:34 pm

christopher_wolf wrote:
coreman wrote: My company used to use TP exclusively but due to constant MOBO or LCD failures went to another brand for a while...however they returned to IBM because everyone complained about the keyboards on the other brand.
Constant failure? Or was it constant ignorance by the users, and possibly some of the IT staff, as how one goes about handling mobile systems and how to treat them, regardless of maker, for optimal lifetime? I think you will find it is the latter as that is a fairly big problem for just about any large corporation or institution.

heh, I registered JUST so's I could answer your post (actually I was gonna register anyway, but you gave me a nice push)....

I kinda resent your statement there (see in red above). Why does there have to be a problem with the users or IT staff (ouch)? Speaking from experience as being the tech at my company, I have personally done a fair number of replacing parts and EZSERVE calls (when there are time constraints) due to the fact of how often we were having machines go down. A good # of machines that have been repaired have been repeat calls.

Examples: T42p (2373-HTU) 2 were sent into the Depot within a week of each other for bad LCDs at the beginning of June 06. Both were sent back again to the Depot (again within a week of each other) this month (sep 06) needing the system board replaced. Our T42s (2373-4WU) have needed multiple repairs and my personal machine (2373-CYU) has had it's system board replaced twice, LCD replaced and I've only had my system about 1 year now....

Now, I'm not saying that ALL our machines have been bad, I've gotten PLENTY of cracked LCDs, crashed hard drives, broken cases, etc.. and I'm not saying that I can't make mistakes... But your comment is WAY off (unless of course you are including all of IBMs/LENOVOs repair staff.

The one good thing we got going is that Full coverage insurance that covers EVERYTHING, so it's not that big a deal as long as I have spares to replace the downed machines.

#29 Post by **K. Eng** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:34 pm

Motherboard failures are annoying. I sold my T40 after I got it back from repair. I went through three system boards in three years

I suspect that the problems have more to do with bad design or manufacturing rather than defects in the sturdiness of the case. The rest of my old T40 was in really good shape

I've yet to buy a new ThinkPad, though that has more to do with the fact that I have no $ right now.

coreman wrote:My company used to use TP exclusively but due to constant MOBO or LCD failures went to another brand for a while...however they returned to IBM because everyone complained about the keyboards on the other brand.

coreman · #30 Post by **coreman** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:21 am

christopher_wolf wrote:
coreman wrote: My company used to use TP exclusively but due to constant MOBO or LCD failures went to another brand for a while...however they returned to IBM because everyone complained about the keyboards on the other brand.
Constant failure? Or was it constant ignorance by the users, and possibly some of the IT staff, as how one goes about handling mobile systems and how to treat them, regardless of maker, for optimal lifetime? I think you will find it is the latter as that is a fairly big problem for just about any large corporation or institution.

Where to begin??? I see after 3,000 years the messenger is still getting shot!

Let me start with that I design a lot of components into mobile products, from iPods to Thinkpads so I have a pretty good idea of the complexity of the finished products and the expectations of the companies that make them.

As an example, all mobile phones and the new small hard drives, 2.5" and smaller, all have to pass a drop test from 1 m onto concrete before being approved for sale. This means that all components that go into mobile phones have to pass the same tests.

Why? Because people drop small objects like mobile phones all the time. Your phone is one tough cookie...but do that to a Thinkpad and it will likely be toast. It simply isn't designed to withstand such a test because it would be prohibitively expensive as well as make them a whole lot heavier.

Okay so why so many mobo, LCD replacements? From what I heard from the techs, it was mostly wear and tear problems, including the problem of flexing mobos by picking up by corner. So is this a user or design problem? Doesn't really matter, IBM decided the warranty repair costs were cheaper than designing a stiffer case for every TP when only "x"% are failing due to flexing.

And I'm sure that the replacement mobos are most likely refurbished boards that were fixed, tested and sent to the tech centers to be used for warranty repairs (could be why there seems to be a lot of repeat failures reported) but it keeps total costs down. As long as Lenovo repairs at their costs, most people aren't disturbed...just a little annoyed.

The heavier TP would also make it less attractive to Road Warriors so they may have a more rugged product but less desirable because of weight...a penalty that would be paid every day for most business users. Weight was certainly one of my prime considerations...

However I would never blame a user for picking it up by corner or by LCD panel, it is a natural motion and frankly, the TP should withstand that kind of stress since it is a known one.

An earlier poster asked me if the failure rates dropped when my company went to other brand...the answer is a resounding yes! But the units were bigger, stiffer, and keyboards really sucked...

Our vendor for TP lost so much business that he agreed to provide a few spare machines as loaners so when mobos failed, all the IT techs had to do was swap out the hard drive from the user and put into loaner machines while failed unit is off to tech center for repair. User is happy, company happy and vendor happy...the really good news is hard drive failures are very, very rare...

But this solution won't work for private owners, we have to wait for our machines to be repaired and that sucks also...so the best thing is to treat TPs with tender loving care and not manhandle them around. However if you do and it is in warranty, IBM/Lenovo warranty repairs (from my personal experience as well as others) is second to none..fast, efficient, and very easy to initiate.

Should I get rid of my Thinkpads?

Should I get rid of my Thinkpads?

Good here...

Who is online