Biometric T42...

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ZPrime · #1 Post by **ZPrime** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 8:45 am

http://www.trustedreviews.com/article.aspx?art=749

Wish they had this out when I got mine. I'd love to have a scanner built-in.

JohnV · #2 Post by **JohnV** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:28 pm

Like what I said in the other post...funny thing if you search the internet a little you will see that finger print readers are not secure at all. I have seen stories of people being able to defeat them with just a gummy bear.

John

Kenn · #3 Post by **Kenn** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:18 pm

Sounds like a great idea though. If it's fast and accurate, I'd go with fingerprint security over entering a windows password every time. Sure it can be defeated, but personally I'm more concerned with people cutting my cable and taking the laptop than with someone cracking a bios password when I'm out of the house.

Matt · #4 Post by **Matt** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 5:08 pm

Horrid location of the fingerprint reader--that's right where the heel of my right palm rests when typing. I think we'll chalk this one up to "the wrong execution of the right idea".

AssPenny · #5 Post by **AssPenny** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 5:24 pm

I agree with the piss poor location. As it is a scannig sensor vs an impact sensor, they could have put it in the lcd bezel or at the top of the machine.

I like how people knock biometic scanners as being not safe. What are passwords? I can watch people type, i can overhear a password, and i can generate passwords. I think i would take my chances with the geek with the gummy bear. Biomettics are an added layer of security, not the end all be all soluction for it.

I for one applaud IBM for taking the next step forward in security.

Kenn · #6 Post by **Kenn** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 5:25 pm

Matt wrote:Horrid location of the fingerprint reader--that's right where the heel of my right palm rests when typing. I think we'll chalk this one up to "the wrong execution of the right idea".

It looks like it's just under and to the right of the down arrow key. Looking at my hands as I type this message, it just misses the heel of my palm (and I sweep across the area to hit any key around the enter/backspace keys), so I agree that the positioning might not be optimal. I think it would be just fine under the right arrow key.

admsteiner · #7 Post by **admsteiner** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 6:00 pm

I wonder if we'll just be able to replace the palmrest and install the fingerprint scanners on ours, or if they've added something to the motherboard that we don't have on our T42s
-Adam

Kenn · #8 Post by **Kenn** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:21 pm

admsteiner wrote:or if they've added something to the motherboard that we don't have on our T42s
-Adam

I imagine that has to be the case. The scanner's got to plug into something right? I can't believe they just had extra chips and ciructiry sitting around for no reason.

admsteiner · #9 Post by **admsteiner** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:36 pm

Kenn wrote:I imagine that has to be the case. The scanner's got to plug into something right? I can't believe they just had extra chips and ciructiry sitting around for no reason.

I haven't taken off my palmrest to see if there are any blank connectors (or space for one), but it could be something similar to what Intel's done with their chips, shipping with HT disabled, or 64bit disabled, etc.

Not knowing how tight IBM ties themselves to model numbers, I might be inclined to think that it may just be a palmrest swap. Something like this, I would think, would call for a new model number, perhaps a T43 designation. But if it's really already there....if it isn't, they'll need to come up with totally new model numbers for the tabook...all those nice permutations...
--Adam

Kenn · #10 Post by **Kenn** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 8:12 pm

Yes, it's always possible. But I'd bet money IBM didn't hash this whole biometric deal before the T42 was released 6 months ago. And since the T42 is just a T41 with Dothan, why not assume the T41s have them too? Or heck, the T40s for that matter

As for the designation, those are mainly for marketing. If nothing else has really changed, it's easily conceivable that the name wouldn't change either. Of course it's arguable, I'm just saying that keeping the T42 desgination doesn't really lend credibility to the idea that the necessary on-board electronics have been shipping with existing notebooks for months.

Alas, it's a pain to remove the 15" keyboard cover (as opposed to the 14" palmrest), so I'm not going to volunteer to check. I'm sure some inquisitive soul will, though

admsteiner · #11 Post by **admsteiner** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 8:21 pm

LOL, hopefully our neighborly inquisitive souls will let us know. I'm not opening up my 14" T42 right now (way too tired). I'd love to get the biometric thing, just for kicks.

I'm not really worried about someone lifting my machine in law school.

--Adam

Conmee · #12 Post by **Conmee** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 6:58 am

It's probably just a USB-type device that piggy-backs off the Touchpad. I can see IBM simply adding an additional length of narrow flat ribbon cable over to the fingerprint reader, making it easy to integrate into existing T Series with no changes to motherboard. We'll probably see a new part number for the Touchpad itself, if my hypothesis is correct.

Daniel.

ZPrime · #13 Post by **ZPrime** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 7:40 am

Conmee wrote:It's probably just a USB-type device that piggy-backs off the Touchpad. I can see IBM simply adding an additional length of narrow flat ribbon cable over to the fingerprint reader, making it easy to integrate into existing T Series with no changes to motherboard. We'll probably see a new part number for the Touchpad itself, if my hypothesis is correct.

Daniel.

Good theory, except the touchpad/ultranav are considered a PS/2 device.

hpostley · #14 Post by **hpostley** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:45 am

I ask this question out of curiosity. Why would you want a fingerprint scanner? Under any circumstances the things need to be cleaned a lot or their performance deteriorates rapidly (they stop recognizing you). This situation is likely to be worse because of the positioning on the T42. Why wouldn't you use software-only biometric like keystroke signatures that work on any model, especially for those who don't happen to have the T42 with the FP scanner?

benz · #15 Post by **benz** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:46 am

They should have put it up above the top right corner of the keyboard...that would be out of the way and yet accessable. And it would be physically above the 'security chip'...and im sure that circuitry would be involved in the process anyway.

Cat5 · #16 Post by **Cat5** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:08 pm

left of the powerswitch? there is a nice spot....

P.S. Fingerprint scanners are not evenly secure, all you need is a cup of coffee or similar that someone had drinked from to pick up his fingerprint, and then you can create a sylicone mold from that (surface cappacitance, density, hardness and similar are identical to real skin) so it's not so cool, a retinal scan is more precise if it's coupled with biometrical lifesigns (pulse and so on, or combo: retinal + finger (heat & pulse sensitive), because someone can simply chop off your finger and that's it... therefore it's nice to have a life reading system.) And ya, There is a biometrical PCMCIA fingerprint reader and if i'm not mistaking the security chip supports biometrics? eh?

Kenn · #17 Post by **Kenn** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 6:17 pm

Tkisason wrote:left of the powerswitch? there is a nice spot....
because someone can simply chop off your finger and that's it...

If someone was going to do that to me, I think I'd sign, seal, and hand-deliver a 1200dpi scan of my fingerprint to their door. Heck, I'll gift-wrap the laptop and give it to them along with a document highlighting where to find all the important stuff!

Left of the power button would be an ideal place for the reader though.

admsteiner · #18 Post by **admsteiner** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 7:08 pm

I agree, left of the power button.

In terms of the security of fingerprint scanners, at least according to the articles I've read, IBM says that there have been improvements. Granted, it's probably not much in terms of overall reliability (so if you have to clean it every week instead of ever 3 days) but it is something.

Two things:
I'd be surprised if anyone came out with anything that was perfect from day one. These programs and ideas are a process, and I don't think I'd be incorrect if I said that users of a TP (if for the fact that it is geared towards business) are probably better suited for testing these things out and giving feedback on. After all, what does a home user care?

Second, none of this is obviously good alone. Granted, some encryption protocols make messages hard to crack (PGP for one), but that doesn't mean it's secure. You now need to use social engineering to get the passkey. Similar thing here, whatever technology they use can be duplicated and broken through somehow (cut off the finger, steal a retinal scan of someone and have something emulate it). Only a layered defense is good enough. This is but another layer.

Just my uninformed $.02

--Adam

mgp · #19 Post by **mgp** » Sun Oct 10, 2004 9:24 pm

I just noticed that one of the new T42 Biometric models, the 2379R9U, apparently is equipped with a 9-Cell battery -- taking the estimated weight to 6.2lbs as opposed to the 5.8lb, similarly-equipped 2379DXU (CPU slower than 100MHz, no biometric technology, 6-cell battery). I'm guessing that the R9U comes with the 9-Cell as the fingerprint scanner must consume energy as it's essentially left on whenever the notebook is on. I don't seem inclined to go after the R9U anymore as it seems that the availability is not too great and that the 9-Cell battery adds a little bit of weight and some bulk (9-Cell battery not flush with the rest of the notebook). What do you guys think?

Kenn · #20 Post by **Kenn** » Sun Oct 10, 2004 11:21 pm

mgp wrote:I just noticed that one of the new T42 Biometric models, the 2379R9U, apparently is equipped with a 9-Cell battery -- taking the estimated weight to 6.2lbs as opposed to the 5.8lb, similarly-equipped 2379DXU (CPU slower than 100MHz, no biometric technology, 6-cell battery). I'm guessing that the R9U comes with the 9-Cell as the fingerprint scanner must consume energy as it's essentially left on whenever the notebook is on. I don't seem inclined to go after the R9U anymore as it seems that the availability is not too great and that the 9-Cell battery adds a little bit of weight and some bulk (9-Cell battery not flush with the rest of the notebook). What do you guys think?

I doubt the scanner really takes up enough power where IBM was just forced to equip the 9-cell. I think it has more to do with the fact that the first biometric units are top of the line, with other configurations that draw more power (not to mention bringing in higher margins). I'm absolutely certain we'll see biometric units span the range of notebooks, including the 6-cell ones.

#21 Post by **BillMorrow** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 12:32 am

in the FWIW column,
my iPAQ has the same type of fingerprint reader..
swipe finger over the scanner bar..

and i had two fingerprint devices of the type that you press your finger to the scanner..

on the iPAQ it would show the print it "saw" on the display and then if it was close to the stored print, you got in..!

was more trouble to use than just tapping a password on the display..

i doube if there is much or ANY power use once the user is verified..

IRT placement..

ibm does not do this stuff without many hours of study..
and lots of discussion..
i think placement is excellent..

and i'll reserve judgement until i see one..

Champ · #22 Post by **Champ** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:44 am

i read on a review that it checks for electronic someting from figners so a chopped off finger works ofor only 15 miuntes or sometihng like that?

Highline · #23 Post by **Highline** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:53 am

Champ wrote:i read on a review that it checks for electronic someting from figners so a chopped off finger works ofor only 15 miuntes or sometihng like that?

Well in that case... should I ever sever my dear index finger... I shall quickly boot my TP and login with my scanned finger so I can switch to the next complete digit

Champ · #24 Post by **Champ** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:36 am

lol or you could just use another of hte fingers you enrolled

bold.eagle · #25 Post by **bold.eagle** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:55 am

So, has anyone gained already some real-life experiences with the fingerprint reader? If so, it would be very kind of him, if he could share those experiences with us.

I just wonder, if using the fingerprint reader is really more comfortable than typing a (log-on) password? Or does it actually take more time using it, as one is always occupied with cleaning the fingerprint reader?
I also have some doubts about the position, where the reader is placed on the keyboard. It looks to me, as if the reader is quite exposed at that place.
Any comments?!

Highline · #26 Post by **Highline** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:19 am

bold.eagle wrote:So, has anyone gained already some real-life experiences with the fingerprint reader? If so, it would be very kind of him, if he could share those experiences with us.

I just wonder, if using the fingerprint reader is really more comfortable than typing a (log-on) password? Or does it actually take more time using it, as one is always occupied with cleaning the fingerprint reader?
I also have some doubts about the position, where the reader is placed on the keyboard. It looks to me, as if the reader is quite exposed at that place.
Any comments?!

I have had my TP for coming up on a month now and I have never had to clean the fingerprint reader. It is very easy to use... and much faster than using a password.

It being below the keyboard is no issue at all, really. It is recessed into the chassis and does not stick out.

It took me a few days to get the speed and angle of how it wants me to run my finger over it down.. but now that I know what it expects of me

I have no problem using it!

#27 Post by **BillMorrow** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:41 pm

fingerprint reader is MUCH easier to use than typing a password..

i have been waiting for this on a thinkpad for years, ever since the first ones arrived for desktops..

i have an iPAQ with one and initially it was a bit tricky to use, but i have learned how to use that one..

the thinkpads version is MUCH MUCH easier..

k3nnis · #28 Post by **k3nnis** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:10 pm

Hi Guys.

I was wondering if say i want to log on to a internet banking website to access my account can i use the fingerprint reader to automatically log me on instead of me trying out my password? If this is possible how do i do it?:)

Cheers.
Kenn.

Biometric T42...

Biometric T42...

Why fingerprints?

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