Which T4x is the best to buy as a used laptop?

[kryptonpwx]

Question how to choose among T40, T41, and T42?
You can skip to the question at the end in bold type.

Equipped with Pentium-M processor, a used T4x is by far the most suitable ThinkPad to invest in for non-heavy game users. Compared with T60, a T42 (Mobility Radeon 9600 64MB, SXGA+) also provides a solution for VISTA in a much lower price range. Intel Core mobile processors in T60 need software support to release all dual core power or at least will only be powerful for those users who often do several things at the same time. Also the Mobility X1300 in T60 does not have high performance, while T60 with Moblity X1400 targets at high-end and also charges a high price.

So in my opinion, when searching in the used laptop market, X31 and T4x provide the highest performance/price ratio, but I am a little confused when choosing among T4x.

T40 855PM DDR266 Banias M6+(16MB), M7(32MB), M9(32MB), M9(64MB)
T41 855PM DDR333 Banias M7(32MB), M9(64MB)
T42 855PM DDR333 Dothan 7x5 M7(32MB), M9(32MB), M10(64MB)
T43 915PM DDR2-533 Dothan 7x0 X300(64MB)

In my local used laptop market, the price is shown in the following list:

Typical Price (linearly normalized to 1~10)
3.9 X31(Banias 1.3,512MB,40GB,M6+,XGA)
4.1 T40(Banias 1.3,512MB,30GB,M7,XGA)
4.5 T41(Banias 1.4,512MB,40GB,M7,XGA)
5.6 T42(Dothan 735,512MB,40GB,M9,XGA)
6.7 T42(Dothan 735,512MB,80GB,M10,SXGA+)
7.4 T43(Dothan 740,512MB,40GB,X300,XGA)

When choosing among T4x instead of X31, one always wants additional features, such as better video performance, SXGA+ screen, APS, and so on.

First I kicked out T43. Apart from too high price, and low X300 performance, T42 Dothan 735(1.7G) and T43 Dothan 740(1.73G) are almost at the same level if tested with SisSoft Sandra CPU benchmark. 30% memory performance difference makes T43 10% faster than T42 in Super-pi. Since Super-pi relies heavily on memory and cache subsystem, the overall performance difference in daily use is only about 5%, as can be shown in Pcmark2004. Dual channel only add 5% memory performance increase for 915PM, which can be neglected. T42 is surely more suitable than T43 as a used laptop when considering performance and price at the same time.

Now the question, what will be a good way to choose among the below?

Price Unit
4.1 T40(Banias 1.3,512MB,30GB,M7,XGA)
4.5 T41(Banias 1.4,512MB,40GB,M7,XGA)
5.3 T42(Dothan 735,512MB,40GB,M9,XGA)
6.7 T42(Dothan 735,512MB,80GB,M10,SXGA+)

[underclocker]

Now the question, what will be a good way to choose among the below?

Price Unit
4.1 T40(Banias 1.3,512MB,30GB,M7,XGA)
4.5 T41(Banias 1.4,512MB,40GB,M7,XGA)
5.3 T42(Dothan 735,512MB,40GB,M9,XGA)
6.7 T42(Dothan 735,512MB,80GB,M10,SXGA+)

Base the choice on need or desire, budget, condition, and warranty remaining.

I'd toss out the low end T40, though, usually the 30GB drives were only 4200rpm.

Very nice write up, but note that some T42's actually had Banias CPU's, like model 2378-DWU.

Good luck.

[pianowizard]

Now the question, what will be a good way to choose among the below?

Price Unit
4.1 T40(Banias 1.3,512MB,30GB,M7,XGA)
4.5 T41(Banias 1.4,512MB,40GB,M7,XGA)
5.3 T42(Dothan 735,512MB,40GB,M9,XGA)
6.7 T42(Dothan 735,512MB,80GB,M10,SXGA+)

For me it's a no-brainer: Get the SXGA+ one. XGA on a 14.1" screen (or even 12.1" for that matter) is a disgrace.

[GnatGoSplat]

I don't know why you kicked out the T43. I was able to get a better price on my mint condition 1yr old T43 than I was able to find a T42 for. For a non-gaming machine the X300 is more than adequate and it's plenty fast enough to work great with Vista Aero at 1400x1050.

The T43 does have some annoyances, like the fan running near full speed most of the time (loud), 2010 error with unapproved drives, and no-1802.com doesn't work on it.

However, it has one very important benefit and that is it's compatible with DDR2 which means cheap RAM! When I crunched the numbers, it was economically advantageous to buy my T43 over the cheapest T42 I could find considering I was interested in upgrading to 2GB.

[kryptonpwx]

Very nice write up, but note that some T42's actually had Banias CPU's, like model 2378-DWU.

Yes, that's true. A Banias on T42 should be 1.5GHz, and also some T43 uses 915GM, on which the video will be integrated GMA900.

To be more detailed, T40 Banias is at 1.3, 1.5, 1.6 GHz, while T41 Banias is at 1.4, 1.6, 1.7 GHz. So if you know a T4x CPU is 1.3 GHz, it must be T40. If the CPU is 1.4 GHz, it should be T41.

For me it's a no-brainer: Get the SXGA+ one. XGA on a 14.1" screen (or even 12.1" for that matter) is a disgrace.

I also like the SXGA+ very much and it kind of makes the choice a little harder. Since all T40, T41, and T42 are 855PM based, the performance does not differ much and accordingly the price shouldn't as well. In that sense, I might choose a T41 with WLAN. I will pick it over T40 just for the APS system. So, it will be a choice between the best T42 or the lowest T41.

For a non-gaming machine the X300 is more than adequate and it's plenty fast enough to work great with Vista Aero at 1400x1050.

I think in most cases, the Mobility Radeon 9600 (M10 128bit) 64MB on T42 will run 30% faster than Mobility X300 (64bit) 64MB on T43, and M10 also supports DX9 and will support Aero. It might be true when upgrading to 2GB, T42 will be more expensive since 1G DDR SO-DIMM is high priced, but the 512MB module is almost the same price as DDR2. Actually running VISTA on either T42 or T43 will not be a good choice because the 64MB video memory suffers. (VISTA uses video memory to do many things and 128MB video does make a difference from 64MB.) If using Windows XP, 1GB will be enough for me. In that sense, T42 will be cheaper than T43 by at least 10% while outperforming T43 in video performance. That is the reason why I do not keep T43 as an option.

A note on 855PM memory bandwidth.

You might notice that T40 only supports DDR266, while T41 supports DDR333, but given a test software, the difference is not as big as it seems (DDR333 should be 25% faster than DDR266.) Using Sisoft sandra memory bandwidth test, T40 is about 2000 MB/s and T41 is about 2250 MB/s. T43 dual channel is 2850 MB/s. T60 dual channel is 3400 MB/s.

I think T40's result is near the theoretical result of PC2100. T41's result is a lot lower than PC2700, so the bottleneck is not memory but the system (say FSB). Similarly, in the case of T43 and T60, the FSB should be the bottleneck since the memory combination should be able to provide a far higher bandwidth. To point it out, the performance increase from T41 to T43 and to T60, is much the same proportion as from FSB400 to FSB533 and to FSB667. That is the reason why DDR266 and DDR333 does not make a big difference on 855PM chipset.

[GnatGoSplat]

I think in most cases, the Mobility Radeon 9600 (M10 128bit) 64MB on T42 will run 30% faster than Mobility X300 (64bit) 64MB on T43, and M10 also supports DX9 and will support Aero. It might be true when upgrading to 2GB, T42 will be more expensive since 1G DDR SO-DIMM is high priced, but the 512MB module is almost the same price as DDR2. Actually running VISTA on either T42 or T43 will not be a good choice because the 64MB video memory suffers. (VISTA uses video memory to do many things and 128MB video does make a difference from 64MB.) If using Windows XP, 1GB will be enough for me. In that sense, T42 will be cheaper than T43 by at least 10% while outperforming T43 in video performance. That is the reason why I do not keep T43 as an option.

9600 may be faster, but I assure you the X300 in the T43 is more than adequate for Vista Aero. The 64MB is just the amount of dedicated video RAM. X300 supports Hypermemory. In Vista with Aero enabled, mine seems to want to allocate 225MB to Hypermemory for some reason. I didn't catch that you said "non-heavy gaming", I originally thought you said "non-gaming". So if you do "light gaming" then yes, you will probably prefer the 9600.

I noticed you're in China, perhaps that explains why 512MB DDR costs the same as 512MB DDR2. In the US, you can buy a 1GB DDR2-667 PC2-5300 SODIMM for less than the price of a 512MB DDR-333 PC2700. I just bought 1GB DDR2-667 for US$25 with free shipping this morning and a 1GB DDR2-533 for $20 earlier in the week.

[pianowizard]

I just bought 1GB DDR2-667 for US$25 with free shipping this morning and a 1GB DDR2-533 for $20 earlier in the week.

After mail-in rebates, of course.

[GnatGoSplat]

I just bought 1GB DDR2-667 for US$25 with free shipping this morning and a 1GB DDR2-533 for $20 earlier in the week.

After mail-in rebates, of course.

Of course, but I always get them. My rebate tracker says I've been paid out over $5000 in rebates last time I checked.

[Melvyn]

Actually running VISTA on either T42 or T43 will not be a good choice because the 64MB video memory suffers. (VISTA uses video memory to do many things and 128MB video does make a difference from 64MB.)

Let me disagree with you. My T42 performs similar to my pal's Dell Inspiron 1210 with 256 nVidia GeForce and core duo.

9600 may be faster, but I assure you the X300 in the T43 is more than adequate for Vista Aero. The 64MB is just the amount of dedicated video RAM. X300 supports Hypermemory. In Vista with Aero enabled, mine seems to want to allocate 225MB to Hypermemory for some reason.

9600 support hypermemory.

My T42 give me 2.0 in video with microsoft drivers. After installing ATI Catalyst with drivers I get 3.5 in video.

With 512mb of ram I get 64mb of native video plus another 64 hypermemory.
With 1gb ram it gets 64mb native plus 256 hypermemory.
With 1.5gb ram it gets 64mb native plues 512 hypememory, for a total of 576mb video with do whatever you want with aero.

Trust me. This machines (see sig) do whatever you want with vista.

[w0qj]

> After installing ATI Catalyst with drivers I get 3.5 in video.


Please kindly advise where can we download this ATI Catalyst driver which almost double the T42's video performance?

And how do we install this?

Tks a lot in advance!

[gator]

I have been looking for a T4x for my brother and these are the options I considered too. A T41 is cheap, but it comes only with a Banias processor (though upgradeable). IMHO, as of today, a SXGA+ T42 with the 9600 card will be the best thing to buy. T42ps are too expensive and T43s have too many problems (heat/noise/2010 HDD/no 1802 etc).

[asiafish]

T42s are probably the best of the older laptops for most uses. The regular T42 is a lot less expensive than a T42p, though the 128MB graphics card is a very nice thing to have.

With that in mind, have you looked at a fast T41p? That would seem to be about the best of both worlds.

[GnatGoSplat]

My T42 give me 2.0 in video with microsoft drivers. After installing ATI Catalyst with drivers I get 3.5 in video.

That's pretty good, the T43 is 2.0 in Graphics and 3.2 in Gaming Graphics.

[kryptonpwx]

9600 support hypermemory.

My T42 give me 2.0 in video with microsoft drivers. After installing ATI Catalyst with drivers I get 3.5 in video.

With 512mb of ram I get 64mb of native video plus another 64 hypermemory.
With 1gb ram it gets 64mb native plus 256 hypermemory.
With 1.5gb ram it gets 64mb native plues 512 hypememory, for a total of 576mb video with do whatever you want with aero.

I originally thought Hypermemory was only supported on PCI-E ATI X-series. If 9600 will support hypermemory, there is certainly no doubt that I will vote for T42 high spec model.

With that in mind, have you looked at a fast T41p?

I think no T4xp is available in a reasonable price range.

A T41 is cheap, but it comes only with a Banias processor (though upgradeable).

A note on Banias and Dothan comparison.

I think there is no prominent performance difference between the two. If tested with a very old software, such as Pcmark2002 and Sisoft sandra 2003. Pcmark2002 will show 100% higher performance in memory due to larger L2 cache. (But the benchmarks on CPU is linearly proportional to host frequency.) In Sisoft sandra 2003, dothan is 30% faster only in Multimedia CPU testing.

But that is not the case, if tested with a newer software, such as Pcmark04 and Sisoft sandra 2005, everything about CPU is only relevant to CPU frequency, whether the CPU is a Banias, Dothan, or even Celeron-M. Testing with Super-pi might be different, since it is highly dependent on memory and cache, but difference is around 10% for same host frequency.

Moreover, Dothan on a 855PM is no faster than a Banias if you are accessible to a high spec Banias. 533 FSB Dothan @ 915 might be faster than 400FSB Banias @ 855, but it is only due to the platform change and with no regard to CPU difference, as is observed from many benchmarking results.

So believe me. If you are not interested in VISTA and non-gamer, go for X31 or T40, pick a high spec model with Banias 1.6 or 1.7. If a T41 at the same price range is also available, go for T41.

If you think XGA is not graceful on 14.1 inch, like me, and sort of willing to upgrade to VISTA, go for T42 with SXGA+ and R9600. Buy a new 1G module to have 1.5G memory.

Notice: Some T4x model have R9000 (M9) video which only supports DX8.1 Such kind of video is something in the middle, which neither provides support for VISTA nor charges at a low price. Therefore, we should avoid such choice.

[kryptonpwx]

Based on the above thinking and some search in the market. I will choose between the following two.

Price(3.4) T41(Banias 1.4,256MB,30GB,M7,XGA,AC adapter missing)
Price(6.7) T42(Dothan 735,512MB,80GB,M10,SXGA+,WLAN)

The T41 I found is very attracting. Although with only 256MB and 4200RPM HDD and no WLAN, the price is only 50% of the T42 one. I will make a decision these days.

Upgrade for T41 will include adding 1G DDR333, 7K100 and perhaps WLAN. Upgrade for T42 is just adding 1G memory.

[gator]

I'd say that anything between $300-$400 is good for a T41 with those specs, depending on the condition of the laptop and wrranty (if any) left.

I just closed a deal for a barebones T41 with a forum member:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=41819

[Temetka]

Your write-ups are very good and highlight the ups and downs of the various models pretty well. However that being said, I chose a T41p over all the other models for the following reasons:

Upgradeable to Dothan
Supports 2GB of RAM

and most importantly,

128MB FireGL GPU.

[Melvyn]

> After installing ATI Catalyst with drivers I get 3.5 in video.

Please kindly advise where can we download this ATI Catalyst driver which almost double the T42's video performance?

And how do we install this?

Tks a lot in advance!

It installs as all drivers/software. Try google for ATI Catalyst 7.2; there are some post at this forum too. They were removed from ATI's website because "direct drivers download is no more supported you must go to your notebook manufacturer" or something so.

Anyways, it's an oficial ATI's driver.

Vista comes with a driver which allow hypermemory, but only give 2.0 as performance index. After this driver I get 3.5

Try searching at vista's forums.

Good look,

Melvyn

[GnatGoSplat]

Is that a different ATI driver than the one that is auto-updated from Microsoft after installing the one from IBM's site?

[BB]

I think you ought to consider the X31, unless, as a previous post stated, you want to use Vista or are interested in a gaming machine.

I have a T43 at work, and an X31 at home, both with XP Pro.

I have found the X31 to be more stable and generally faster, particularly when I have multiple programs open..

This may be in large part because I have more memory (1 gig) and a bigger hard drive (80 gig) on the X31, while the T43 has a fairly anemic 512k and only 40 gig hard drive.

But the greater stability of the X31, combined with its lighter weight, tips the scale for me. If I had to go out and buy a new laptop tomorrow, I might look at the x60 (or new x61), but for the price, the X31's are hard to beat. Just add additional RAM and a bigger harddrive.

best!

BB

[Temetka]

> After installing ATI Catalyst with drivers I get 3.5 in video.

Please kindly advise where can we download this ATI Catalyst driver which almost double the T42's video performance?

And how do we install this?

Tks a lot in advance!

It installs as all drivers/software. Try google for ATI Catalyst 7.2; there are some post at this forum too. They were removed from ATI's website because "direct drivers download is no more supported you must go to your notebook manufacturer" or something so.

Anyways, it's an oficial ATI's driver.

Vista comes with a driver which allow hypermemory, but only give 2.0 as performance index. After this driver I get 3.5

Try searching at vista's forums.

Good look,

Melvyn

Awesome. I was able to download and install Catalyst 7.2.

I now have a 3.4 Rating instead of the 2.5 I had before.

Sweet.

[CrunchDude]

Now the question, what will be a good way to choose among the below?

Price Unit
4.1 T40(Banias 1.3,512MB,30GB,M7,XGA)
4.5 T41(Banias 1.4,512MB,40GB,M7,XGA)
5.3 T42(Dothan 735,512MB,40GB,M9,XGA)
6.7 T42(Dothan 735,512MB,80GB,M10,SXGA+)

For me it's a no-brainer: Get the SXGA+ one. XGA on a 14.1" screen (or even 12.1" for that matter) is a disgrace.

I couldn't agree more. Once you go above XGA, you'll never go back. At least I won't.