T4x Series Buying Help

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Zangetsu17 · #1 Post by **Zangetsu17** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:18 pm

Hey all

I am going to buy a IBM Thinkpad for my work needs. I already have a Macbook for my media and I need a dedicated Windows Laptop. I have decided on the IBM Thinkpad T4x series.

I can get a refurb T41 (1.6 GHz) for $441 and a T42 (1.7 GHz) for $471 from Lenovo.

What is the diference between them? Is there a major performance difference? And how is the service of IBM refurbished laptops? Anyone with experience?

yeohkt · #2 Post by **yeohkt** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:36 pm

bought a ibm refurbished T40 about 2 years ago. specs are a bit low and keyboard a lot run down but come with new 9 cell batt. still in warranty so luckily got keyboard change and upgraded wireless card.
internally, the fan looks it has being clean quite well.

sometimes ibm have longer warranty on the machines, u need to check.

price depends on specs. that price seems good.

#3 Post by **richk** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:46 pm

Not a big difference. The T42 probably has a Banias processor, which has a bigger cache, so it is probablty 10% faster for the same clock speed. (your mileage may vary) Does either have warranty remaining?

pianowizard · #4 Post by **pianowizard** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:57 pm

richk wrote:The T42 probably has a Banias processor

Of course you meant Dothan.

Zangetsu17 · #5 Post by **Zangetsu17** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:03 pm

I believe it comes with a 3 month warranty

#6 Post by **richk** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:41 pm

Yes. I meant Dothan. The T41 has the Banias. I am trying to work on a dial-up line that keeps dropping (I am out of town) and I forget where I am.

Zangetsu17 · #7 Post by **Zangetsu17** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:44 pm

I know this is the T4x forum, but what about the R51 (1.5 GHz) for $408 how do they compare to the T4x series? I do like the shape of the keyboard/palm rest part of the laptop, pointy on one side and flat on the other. Looks aerodynamic from pics

Ultimately, the performance is the most important aspect for me.

I will be using dreamweaver/fireworks on the thinkpad. How will it perform with apps like those?

lilserenity · #8 Post by **lilserenity** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:59 am

Ultimately I don't think you will see a huge difference between an R51 and T41; it's the R51e that will have a slightly lower specification.

Overall the biggest difference is size and weight. If you want thin and light, the T series is your target--otherwise both are perfectly good. Some may even argue that extra size of the R51 is a benefit as some T4x series have suffered because they are so thin (1" at the front) although I've not known anyone to suffer from this personally (except from what I have heard on here).

Otherwise the R51 is a viable option and you may get more for your money. It will have the same keyboard, same processor options, same graphics systems (Radeon 7500 or 9000) and is just a good laptop.

Personally I am going very well with a 1.5GHz T40/Radeon 7500/1GB RAM and it zips along like no tomorrow; and apps like Dreamweaver and Fireworks will be great on it. Just give it plenty of RAM as you would with any computer; and also consider a larger/faster hard disk for it too.

As noted the difference between the T41 and T42 is the CPU; and swapping that out in the T41 will give you a T42 in all but name.

Vicky

pianowizard · #9 Post by **pianowizard** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:54 am

lilserenity wrote:Otherwise the R51 is a viable option and you may get more for your money.

Another advantage of the R51 over the T41 is that there are 15.0" models which, I believe, allow you to upgrade to the 15.0" UXGA FlexView screen. All T41's are 14.1".

Zangetsu17 · #10 Post by **Zangetsu17** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:28 pm

Does the R51 (Not 51e) have a Banias or a Dothan?

#11 Post by **Johan** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:17 pm

Zangetsu17 wrote:I am going to buy a IBM Thinkpad for my work needs. I already have a Macbook for my media and I need a dedicated Windows Laptop. I have decided on the IBM Thinkpad T4x series.

I can get a refurb T41 (1.6 GHz) for $441 and a T42 (1.7 GHz) for $471 from Lenovo.

What is the difference between them? Is there a major performance difference? And how is the service of IBM refurbished laptops? Anyone with experience?

When you talk about “refurb from Lenovo”, it is somewhat unclear (to me!) what you exactly refer to – is it this page: IBM Certified Used Equipment - Notebooks? If so, in my opinion, the prices there are (far!) higher than what you may find both at eBay, Craiglists, and in the in the Marketplace in this forum. In the latter, try use the Search function (and limit it to that forum), and see what recent T4x deals there have been. Likewise, search the T4x forum for ”buy advice” (use ”Search for all terms”) – much useful information, if in your situation, will turn up, I am confident. Also, search for “T40 T41 T42” (use ”Search for all terms”), and you will find many comparisons.

A recent discussion in the Marketplace focus (more or less) on the same as you ask about; check Help ! Should I buy a used or a new ThinkPad?

You are also very short in your requirements, making it a little difficult to answer to your request. Could you perhaps share with us what your thoughts are on the following issues:

- absolutely, maximum price? Will you be allowed to purchase a “base laptop” first, and subsequently upgrade it for “future money”? If so, place priority on display quality (incl. GPU/VRAM), remaining warranty, processor speed, and upgrade from that on! About upgrades, check this thread: T42 Upgrade Possibilities. Although specifically addressing T42’s most hold true also for T40’s and T41’s.

- portability? Are you equally satisfied with a good, big (yet slightly heavy?) 15” model, or would you certainly not have anything else than a small 14.1” model? The larger the display, the more power it will consume – so a 15” will have shorter battery life compared to a 14.1” model. On the other hand, the best displays (FlexView/IPS) are only available on 15” models. Is this of importance??

- display size and quality? You will probably find that a great deal of users on this forum are most attracted by the FlexView/IPS type of displays (as mentioned, not available in 14.1” models). Also, are you fully satisfied with a standard XGA-display, or would you not go below SXGA+?

- warranty? Are you equally satisfied with an out-of-warranty model compared to one still being in warranty? Note: The warranty cannot be extended once it has expired!

Specifications for various ThinkPad’s (A/G/R/T/X/Z-series) can be found in the “Personal Systems Reference Lenovo ThinkPad Notebooks”, find links to these e.g. here.

- many general considerations when purchasing an old/refurbished/remufactured laptop are found in the following threads:

Buying a 2nd hand T42p (e.g. see the post of Sat Jul 28 and subsequent, incl. links)

IBM Certified Used T42

IBM Certified Used Equipment Sale - Question

New T42 owner looking for advice

Warranty extension (can be extended from $80 - $99 per year).

A highly usable forum, this!

Best regards,

Johan

Zangetsu17 · #12 Post by **Zangetsu17** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:56 pm

I need something I can bring to client meetings without too much trouble. I would rather have a 14 in. screen with great battery. The screen isn't important, but I would rather have a 4:3 screen. I think that as long as I have the 3 month warranty, I'm set.

Thank you.

#13 Post by **underclocker** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:59 pm

Zangetsu17 wrote:I know this is the T4x forum, but what about the R51 (1.5 GHz) for $408 how do they compare to the T4x series? I do like the shape of the keyboard/palm rest part of the laptop, pointy on one side and flat on the other. Looks aerodynamic from pics

Ultimately, the performance is the most important aspect for me.

I will be using dreamweaver/fireworks on the thinkpad. How will it perform with apps like those?

I have had many T4x and many R5x machines. I still have two T4x and four R5x machines right now.

For the most part, the two series have many interchangeable parts, maybe even the systemboard in some cases. Certainly, the models with ATI video chipsets all use the same BIOS & EC - that's some R50, R51, T40, T41 & T42 models.

The 14" models use the exact same keyboard and batteries, too.

Although the T4x's are more beautiful, artful and elegant, in addition to be engineering marvels, I prefer the R5x series, in general. Why? I feel they are more durable and I do not believe they need to be handled as carefully 100% of the time. The T4x series, especially the T40, T41 & (I think) T42, weigh only 5 lbs. with an optical drive. They were built to the limit for their size and power. In fact, the T43 was reinforced and weighs five ounces more, when similarly configured. They need to be treated well to last.

I've issued R5x's to my wife and my mother and father in laws, and they're running strong after years without any issues. I have observed how they treat computers and it isn't pretty. Any hardcore forum member would have tears in their eyes.

As far as performance, it should be identical between identically equipped machines, as the T41p and R50p are.

One nuance to note, some R50's and R51's were released concurrently, so some R50's are actually newer or more current than some R51's, or at least had better spec's. This is also similar to the T42's, a 1.5GHz Pentium M T42 doesn't "beat" a 1.7GHz T41. As far as comparing the lines over time, the R40 was actually available during the T40's release, then the R50 with the T41, then the R51 with the T42, then the R52 with the T43, all approximately, but close.

As previously noted, various 15" displays were available since the R50's, including some nice FlexView models. Additionally, some R-series had Firewire. Finally, the R-series sold at a discount to the T-series, and the used market echos this price structure.

My T40 weighs exactly 5lbs., my 14" R51 weighs 5lbs. 15oz.

For used, spec's are very imporant and warranty life is too.

Zangetsu17 · #14 Post by **Zangetsu17** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:53 pm

Using Johan's link to the thread with the specifications of Thinkpad models, I got a pdf of all the T4x's and R5x's. Unfortunately, I can't find http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/store ... logId=-840
(That) in the lists... Can there be a computer not on that list or did I just miss it...?

#15 Post by **underclocker** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:52 pm

IBM did not list all models it offered in these periodical model catalogues. There are many, many more models released than identified in them.

However, almost every time you can search on IBM's website for the model number to find out the relevant information. The model you were looking at is here -> http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... yle=lenovo

One note, not all spec's on-line are accurate - occasionally, mistakes are made.

By the way, for approx. the same price, I have a much more nicely equipped R50 (1836-3SU) available in our forum Marketplace. Give it some thought -> http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=47026

pianowizard · #16 Post by **pianowizard** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:13 pm

underclocker wrote:By the way, for approx. the same price, I have a much more nicely equipped R50 (1836-3SU) available in our forum Marketplace.

Zangetsu17, underclocker's R50 is much nicer than the R51 you were considering, especially its 15" FlexView SXGA+ display. Don't let this opportunity slip!

Zangetsu17 · #17 Post by **Zangetsu17** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:11 pm

I don't need anything fancy. I want something that may survive a fall or two and something that doesn't need to be babied.

Anyway, like I said: I can get the R51 for 400 bucks with the EPP. I can't go much higher than $450.

Does $400 sound reasonable for the model above?

SHoTTa35 · #18 Post by **SHoTTa35** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:20 pm

well it's a really low end machine but it has some nice upgrade paths. You can upgrade it nicely if that's your intention but i'd get either underclockers machine or the T42 you have listed first. That sounds like a better deal to me but underclocker has the sweetest deal.

pianowizard · #19 Post by **pianowizard** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:00 pm

Zangetsu17 wrote:I don't need anything fancy.....I can get the R51 for 400 bucks with the EPP. I can't go much higher than $450....

This Thinkpad would be for work, right? This $400 R51's XGA (1024x768) has a very limited working area, which might seriously impede your productivity. Underclocker's SXGA+ (1400x1050) screen offers 87% more pixels, i.e. you can view 87% more stuff on the screen. For most people on this forum, SXGA+ is the minimum acceptable display resolution.

lilserenity · #20 Post by **lilserenity** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:35 pm

That said I am known to be a bit of a geek and tend to do a lot of productivity stuff and I cope fine, in fact easily with the XGA resolution of my T40; so it's not a complete no no; although I'm using it on a 14" LCD and I do find that 15" XGA screens are erm, not too clever!

I find it's fine so it's not the be all end all. The best thing you can do is try and see both resolutions and then decide. For me I find having XGA is fine for the laptop itself; and then to hook into a larger/higher resolution external screen for some serious page layout/artwork manipulation etc.

As the saying goes--your mileage may vary

#21 Post by **bill bolton** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:45 pm

pianowizard wrote:For most people on this forum, SXGA+ is the minimum acceptable display resolution.

No, only for some people on the forum.

Cheers,

Bill B.

pianowizard · #22 Post by **pianowizard** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:19 pm

bill bolton wrote:No, only for some people on the forum.

Okay, I admit that I exaggerated a little bit. Perhaps I should have said "Most people find SXGA+ much more useful than XGA".

BTW, this discussion inspired me to start this poll.

Zangetsu17 · #23 Post by **Zangetsu17** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:33 pm

Thank you for all the input. It was great and made me really think about what I wanted. I have decided to go with the T42 instead of the R51 because of the argument of XGA vs. SXGA. I have some experience with an 14.1 XGA so I know what I'm getting. I'm afraid of getting a larger screen with the same resolution...

Maybe later, I will get a monitor for more screen space, but i decided that based on the power, the T42 will best fit my needs.

Thank you for all the input.

P.S. You can continue to talk about the XGA vs. SXGA if you want

ccotenj · #24 Post by **ccotenj** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:19 pm

bill bolton wrote:
pianowizard wrote:For most people on this forum, SXGA+ is the minimum acceptable display resolution.
No, only for some people on the forum.

Cheers,

Bill B.

agreed... i find xga to be more than adequate on my thinkpad... not to mention much more readable than itty bitty letters...

i dunno... possibly this has something to do with being old...

and old enough to remember coding on monitors/terminals that did nothing but black and white with jaggedy letters...

when doing layouts and presentations, a bigger monitor with higher resolution is nice (which is what the use my desktop for)... but for 95% of my use (like sitting in my recliner surfing the net and watching baseball

), xga is fine, if not better than sxga, at least for my eyes...

ccotenj · #25 Post by **ccotenj** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:20 pm

dupe...

#26 Post by **carbon_unit** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:27 pm

Personally I find the R51 to have less flex in the base than a T42. This may lessen the flexing problems that lead to loose video chipsets. Has anyone had that problem with an R51?

Zangetsu17 · #27 Post by **Zangetsu17** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:41 pm

Can someone tell me about this video card loose...ness problem? Is it widespread?

If I shake it around while holding it, or drop it a couple of times, or carry it around in a backpack, will the chip become loose? Am I just paranoid?

And one last thing (Sorry)

How long is a good estimate for the life of a T42? How long have your's survived? How much care did you take of it?

#28 Post by **carbon_unit** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:57 pm

Read this: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=33952
The T42's are excellent machines as long as they are not abused. It all depends on how the previous owner('s) treated it. Picking it up one handed by one of the lower corners is a no-no.
I'm not trying to scare you away from a T42. Just be aware of the problem. Sorry if i complicated your decision.

Zangetsu17 · #29 Post by **Zangetsu17** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:54 pm

Soooo.... I keep it in a backpack, Hold it from the sides, and I should be set? Or is the problem more complex than that?

#30 Post by **carbon_unit** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:35 am

If it is not acting up and you pick it up properly you should be OK. I never had any trouble with mine.

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