Taking bets on arrival of T43???

[BK]

Ok, so after extensive research on these discussion lists and elsewhere, I've decided to stick to Thinkpads. I need to replace an A21m. Just about pushed the button on a T42p (2373-G1U), but then started thinking about when the new T43s might arrive. IBM tells me maybe end of January, but by end of Q1 '05.

Anyone taking bets on when these will actually roll out, and what their specs might be? How fast will the alviso chips be, better graphics cards, maybe a 7200 rpm 80 gig hard drive, etc? I can buy through the employee purchase program, so I'll get a better deal there than I can through anywhere else. The old dilemma of buy now or wait just a little longer...

[DentdHalo]

I'm in the same boat.

I can buy now, or wait a bit later. Decisions decisions...

[lfeagan]

So, the real question here is just what will Alviso do for me. Here are the specs you will be seeing on Alviso:

• 533 MHz (133x4) FSB
• 1 x PCI Express x16 (For external graphics cards typically)
• 4 x PCI Express x1
• Calexico 2 802.11 a/b/g chipset
• 4x SATA 150 Support
• DDR400 / DDR2 533 Support
• 8x USB 2.0 Ports
• Intel Extreme Graphics 3

You should be aware, those are the chipset spcs, obviously your laptop will not be having 5 PCI Express expansion slots, though hopefully PCI Express video cards will be coming to laptops (as it seems both Nvidia and ATI have layed firm plans to do so...but you never know).

The increase to a 533MHz bus should have nice benefits from a performance standpoint. The CPU will still be a Dothan, but Intel may decide to scale back the 2MB cache and save some cash. The faster clocked FSB should make up for the removal of some cache if they go that route. The logic here being that the typical reason you add cache is to hide latency or a lack of bandwidth at key times. A faster clocked bus would increase the bandwidth available, though it often does come at some slightly penalty in terms of latency due to having more pipeline stages often times involved in getting the data to the bus.

You will see Intel's own a/b/g chipset. I am not so sure this is a good thing. I personally love the Atheros chipset. It is in my Lucent Gold a/b/g card and my T42p and I find it to be very good in terms of range and linux support.

Alviso will signal the introduction of SATA to the laptop sphere. This won't make any performance difference, it should just mean more convenient form factors for manufacturers.

The "Extreme" graphics 3 is another low performance chipset from Chipzilla. The name "Extreme" seems to imply fast...but we all know it means it is slow as molasses on a cold winter day. They added more support for shaders....in software of course. Alviso is the 915GM chipset and I have seen benchmarks of the 915GV, which also uses EG3 and it was a total piece of crap even with a Pentium 4 3.4EE (yes, the EE) powering it. A Radeon 9600 will blow it out of the water by over 5x and often times 10x the frame rate in many games and other applications.

As far as the length of the wait, I would say the percentage chance of seeing one on a T43 by March 2005 is about nil. IBM isn't noted for being the first to market with new chipsets like that, and the launch is set for 1Q 2005 by Intel. I would expect there to be some delays in getting it out the door as is pretty typical. Although it is sampling, I have heard there are issues too. So, not wanting to look like goofballs again, Intel is trying to make sure they don't ship a laptop chipset with any issues, as replacement of a laptop chipset = replacing the whole CPU and everything else on the motherboard, which is about $500 dollars of stuff on a lot of laptops. Replacing a desktop motherboard, on the other hand, likely costs about $50. So, they don't want any weirdness with it by the time it ships.

So, to answer your question: Should I wait for the T43? Well, if you are the type who has to have the newest goodies, then yes, you should wait. Also, if you want to keep your laptop for a really long time, it might also be a good idea to wait. I would suspect that although ATA interfaces for hard drives will still be around a long time for laptops, they will become less and less prevalent in the marketplace. I would bet that by three years from now finding an ATA laptop drive would be pretty difficult if you wanted the latest and greatest hard drive. SATA laptop drives should be the standard for the next 5 years at least. Sometimes I wonder if I should have waited, but then I realize how much use I will get out of my notebook over the next 5 months and I realize I made the right choice. If you are feeling the urge to upgrade, then go for it and get a T42 now. It really probably won't be for 5 months until you see a T43 at the earliest, perhaps 6 months, which is 1/2 year if you think about it. If you are still perfectly content with the laptop you have then wait. I really needed the weight reduction from 8lbs to 5 lbs, so it made sense for me and I am very glad I made the move.

[lvlolvlo]

I want to get me an IBM Tablet PC when it comes out. I liked the Toshiba M205 but the keybaord was weird. Hence now I anxiously await the release of the Tablet PC's hopefully Spring/Summer 05?

[Dr Dan]

Hi all,

I'm itching to get my hands on a T42 14.1", but those missing features keep nagging me...

> Flexview screen
> Firewire
> Decent speed +/- DVD writer (and maybe even dual layer)

Any ideas when we may start to see machines with some or all of these features? To be honest, the screen is my biggest concern. I currently have a samsung X10 - and the screen is pretty poor as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks for any insight.

Dan.

[nicpottier]

I too am waiting for the next generation..

My powerbook is growing long in the tooth and I'm not holding my breath for Apple to release a G5 anytime soon.

I've always loved ThinkPads, and currently Intel really has the edge when it comes to mobile power, so I've been lurking the T-series for a couple weeks.

Main things holding me back are:
- new chipset due out in Q1
- better graphics cards afforded by new chipset. (Fire GL is nice, but a bit limited)
- the inevitable performance increase for your $
- maybe a widescreen, I've grown very used to my powerbooks widescreen and think I might miss it, but it's not a deal breaker

My primary use is for development (mostly Java) at home as my only computer. I've grown too used to working anywhere, having my life be portable to ever own a desktop again.

Anyways, I'm anxiously waiting for details of the T43 or whatever is next, and saving my pennies until then.

-Nic

PS. Anybody know how Bill's prices (which seem awesome) compare to those through IBM and their stockholder program? Is it worth buying a few shares?

[lfeagan]

I decided to offer some commentary on the things you want, they are predictions, but I thought they might help you in your decision.

- new chipset due out in Q1
my comment: Yes, this will be a good thing, worth waiting for if you can wait, sounds like waiting 5 months won't be an issue for you.

- better graphics cards afforded by new chipset. (Fire GL is nice, but a bit limited)
my comment: don't bet on it having a x800 XT. Any Thinkpad T series is going to be fairly power conservative and even putting an 9800Pro in it would really annihilate its battery life. The 9800 Pro uses like twice the power of the Dothan CPU!!! The 9600 Pro is much lower in its power usage due to 0.13u SOI process and 1/2 the # of pixel pipelines.

- the inevitable performance increase for your $
my comment: yeah, totally

- maybe a widescreen, I've grown very used to my powerbooks widescreen and think I might miss it, but it's not a deal breaker
my comment: I don't see this coming to a Thinkpad near you unless IBM has a sudden massive change in philosophy. We have had some discussions on here about a month ago about the widescreen on IBM thing. I just don't see it happening and I know all the research showing how widescreens are better for females, and all the other things that make them appealing. I just don't see them as being part of the market that IBM sees itself as targeting. Note that I said what *they see*...not necessarily the way they should be doing things.

[nicpottier]

- better graphics cards afforded by new chipset. (Fire GL is nice, but a bit limited)
my comment: don't bet on it having a x800 XT. Any Thinkpad T series is going to be fairly power conservative and even putting an 9800Pro in it would really annihilate its battery life. The 9800 Pro uses like twice the power of the Dothan CPU!!! The 9600 Pro is much lower in its power usage due to 0.13u SOI process and 1/2 the # of pixel pipelines.

Ya, I think the key for me really is the swich to PCI-Express. In theory that means the cards will be user upgradeable right? That's a pretty big win in my opinion. Graphics cards are getting faster at a much faster rate than processors these days, so being able to swap in a new card in a couple years seems well well worth it.

Then again, my only really graphics intensive task is Photoshop (don't game much at all) so it's all probably a moot point.

Speaking of user upgradeable. I've seen a few posts on people upgrading their processors. Is that possible? I always imagined laptops were so compact that they couldn't bother with sockets CPU's. If so, that's an even stronger argument towards waiting for the 533mhz FSB, as that'll probably last over a year and I'll be able to upgrade to the last of that line. (instead of the last of the current line which is likely 2.1ghz?.)

-Nic

[monty cantsin]

Ya, I think the key for me really is the swich to PCI-Express. In theory that means the cards will be user upgradeable right?

In theory also today's AGP solutions are upgradeable (and some notebooks already feature replaceable video cards).

http://www.heise.de/bilder/47479/1/0

But I'm not so sure whether IBM will really integrate Nvidia's MXM or, perhaps more likely, ATI's AXIOM solution. AFAIK, mostly ODM's have announced to utilize such standards yet, because of the cost reductions WRT cheaper notebook designs. These cards also take up quite a bit of space, so I'm not sure if there is enough room in more compact notebook designs (like that of the T-series) for such a gimmick. I'd rather expect to see them in some bigger notebooks like the R-series first (if ever). But I could be wrong, we'll see.

MXM card (Nvidia):

http://www.heise.de/bilder/47479/0/0

AXIOM card (ATI):

http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/news/200 ... ont_bg.jpg
http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/news/200 ... ack_bg.jpg

Some more references:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/mobile/dis ... 40932.html

http://www.ati.com/companyinfo/press/2004/4755.html

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/05/28/ati_axiom/

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1 ... 850,00.asp

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1 ... 940,00.asp

[whizkid]

Ya, I think the key for me really is the swich to PCI-Express. In theory that means the cards will be user upgradeable right?

Why would that be the case? When built-in video was on ISA bus... NOT upgradable. When it was on PCI: NOT upgradable. Now it's on AGP: NOT upgradable. When it comes to PCIe? There's no reason to think that another connector and space for a separate removable card would be added to machines.

[Dr Dan]

Hey lfeagan (or anyone else) - I'd be interested to hear your comments on this list!

> Flexview screen
> Firewire
> Decent speed +/- DVD writer (and maybe even dual layer)

[AtmosMan]

Speaking of user upgradeable. I've seen a few posts on people upgrading their processors. Is that possible?...If so, that's an even stronger argument towards waiting for the 533mhz FSB, as that'll probably last over a year and I'll be able to upgrade to the last of that line.

You pretty much got it. Users on this board have upgraded their Banias Pentium M to a Dothan Pentium M. They use the same chipset, so there won't be a problem doing that. I posetd a link a little while ago that was from Intel's web site. It turns out that they get their benchmark numbers by using Thinkpads, and under the configurations, they retrofitted a T41 with a Dothan processor.

Now, waiting for the 533MHz FSB: I am doing it. The memory bandwidth alone will help me out a lot, plus all of the other goodies that is coming along with Alviso. I don't know for sure what the top clock speed for that chipset will be, but the highest I have seen it in roadmaps is 2.26GHz which should be as fast a Pentium 4 3.4GHz desktop processor!

[ZPrime]

Hey lfeagan (or anyone else) - I'd be interested to hear your comments on this list!

• Flexview screen
  Get a 15". That's the only way you'll see it. I dislike the slight weight addition and size difference on my 15" T42p (vs. the 14" T42s I just worked on for a client), but the 1600x1200 flexview is FAR better than the 14" 1024x768 screen on the client's laptops.
• Firewire
  Buy a pcmcia/PC card. Do you really use firewire that much on your laptop? I have a card and have used it maybe twice.
• Decent speed +/- DVD writer (and maybe even dual layer)
  This is one thing I could potentially get behind, although i have a nice dual layer dvd+/- in my desktop. i honestly have NOT needed to burn dvds much at all with my thinkpad - it just doesn't come up. I couldn't live w/o the cd burner though, and would love to have one doing 48x or 52x rather than having to wait on 24x burns. a USB floppy that is faster than 1x would be a cool addition as well, to make those painful instances of working with floppies go by faster.

[Dr Dan]

So we'll never see a 14.1" flexview?

How do sony make such nice screens in their small ultraportables?

[lfeagan]

So...in order we proceed.
Flexview 15" (14" ???)--The 15" Flexview is pretty according to many users. For the Photoshop users out there, that might be a big plus. For me, I enjoy my 1 pound of weight saved and the smaller overall size. I also appreciate the lower response time of my 14.1" 1400x1050. Based on how the Flexview seems to be implemented in the 15" model, it would seem unlikely to migrate to the 14" as it would make the notebook a lot thicker. On the other hand, a 14.1" T43 Flexview might be in the works. Perhaps they will thin it down. I do have a feeling that the 14.1" T42p users out there are in a super-minority group compared to the 15" Flexview T42p users. I bet 90% of the T42p buyers get the 15" Flexview. In that sense, I don't see IBM making a strong push to thin down flexview and cram it into the current T42p 14" form factor case.

Firewire--Gawd I would love to have built-in Firewire. I have a ton of Firewire things. I don't see this coming to the T43...sad but true. I would bet that other than the things directly on the Alviso chpiset that there would not be any other peripherials that duplicated functionality. In other words, I would expect that the sound will be from the Hi-Def audio on board Alviso, etc etc.... This makes the integration cost for IBM very cheap. It really simplifies their lives greatly and brings lower cost products to us. Remember, integration is the key to lower costs.

Decent speed +/- DVD RW drive-- I have no clue on this one. But someone else had some speculation about it yesterday I thought.