Serious upgrading of a T42 with Radeon 9700/9800

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beeblebrox · #1 Post by **beeblebrox** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:54 am

A friend of mine has a 15" T42 which shows the typical graphics problems due to a loose GPU chip. Holding the notebook just at one edge immediately locks it up.
Otherwise it is working just fine, but is not reliable anymore.

Since it needs a re-flow soldering anyway we came across the idea to completely remove the Radeon 7500 and replace it with a Mobile Radeon 9700 (my friend is an avid gamer!) or maybe even a Radeon 9800 (if it could handle the heat!).
Since the Mobile Radeons all use the same FlexFit socket structure it should be easy to upgrade, according to ATI's spec sheets. The Radeon 9700 is MUCH more powerful than the 9600. It should give very good games specs.

We already have the better cooling fan assembly of the T43 which could help preventing an excessive heat build up.

Broken Dell laptops with Radeon 9700 are abundant on FleaBay so this should not bother us.

MY QUESTION: has anyone already done this? Any hints?

Brad · #2 Post by **Brad** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:58 am

Nice upgrade.

Is the T42p GPU the 128mb T2 an option?

Brad

djpharoah · #3 Post by **djpharoah** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:54 am

Umm.. are you going to remove the 7500 and then put in an 9700? Cuz that wont work. Im pretty sure they have different socket arrangements, different power requirements and huge difference in connection pins. The pins probably dont even match up in terms of what they do. I mean if you successfully remove the radeon 7500 congrats. But putting in the 9700 is going to be a nightmare! Plain and simple -there is a reason why the gpus are soldered onto the motherboard

I would say get an IBM T42p Motherboard - one with the ATi FireGL T2 128 - its basically a 9600. I have it (T41p) and its just amazing.

Troels · #4 Post by **Troels** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:01 pm

One thing may be that the ATI GPUs are pin compatible, but the configuration with the memory right around it on a single PCB is not necessarily standard.

beeblebrox · #5 Post by **beeblebrox** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:59 pm

djpharoah wrote:Umm.. are you going to remove the 7500 and then put in an 9700? Cuz that wont work. Im pretty sure they have different socket arrangements, different power requirements and huge difference in connection pins. The pins probably dont even match up in terms of what they do. I mean if you successfully remove the radeon 7500 congrats. But putting in the 9700 is going to be a nightmare! Plain and simple -there is a reason why the gpus are soldered onto the motherboard

I would say get an IBM T42p Motherboard - one with the ATi FireGL T2 128 - its basically a 9600. I have it (T41p) and its just amazing.

Sorry to differ here - but it seems to me that you have no clue what you are talking about.

Duuuh...! "I heard from a friend's his brother's uncle that he thought it potentially could not work" Aaaargh...!!!

There is a reason that there are unified motherboard design with sockets for the more expensive parts, such as the Intel Pentium. Within a product family you can upgrade, e.g. from 1.3Ghz Banias all the way up to 2.1GHz Dothan.

What is the difference between a T40 and a T42? None! Same design, just a few bells and whistles added.

Same with graphics. All the way from Mobility Radeon 7500 to 9800 ATI use FlexFit unified technology, so that the manufacturer can cheaply select the appropriate price class. Pin compatible, software compatible, drop-in compatible. Because the socket costs almost as much as the ATI chip and ATI does not provide end customer support, OEM manufacturers solder the chip directly on the board.

We are studying the chip detail specs here and it seems that the only problem would be heat dissipation, which would require the T43 modified fan assembly.
AGB 4x unfortunately due to Intel chip set. But we could drive it up to 450Mhz, which the clock generator seems to be able to (tested on a T41). But I guess 350MHz would be max. for the heat.

We will be scanning FleaBay to get cheaply a motherboard from a dead Dell Inspiron XPS for a Radeon 9700 or even a dead Sony A-series. That seems to be the major problem now.

#6 Post by **richk** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:12 pm

The graphics chip is not socketed. It is soldered onto a small board with VRAM chips by ATi. Are you talking about removing just the graphics chip or the entire BGA assembly? Either way, I am duibious.

beeblebrox · #7 Post by **beeblebrox** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:30 pm

richk wrote:The graphics chip is not socketed. It is soldered onto a small board with VRAM chips by ATi. Are you talking about removing just the graphics chip or the entire BGA assembly? Either way, I am duibious.

The Vrams are on top of the GPU. You would simply have to remove the whole BGA part from the motherboard.
If you reflow the chip you do reflow the balls of the BGA underneath. Either way, when you reflow you can also simply take the whole thing off, because the BGA ball are liquid.

We'll see if we can reball the 9700 and put it on, depending on the availabiliy of the infrared reflow machine.
The 9800 seems to be overkill. The heat could be just too much for the little heat tube.

Now getting a dead motherboard with a working GPU might be a little tricky. Those Dell XPS machines seem to be in high demand, even when broken.

#8 Post by **richk** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:41 pm

The GPU is one chip on the BGA array. The entire BGA array is removed as a unit when you reball it. The pins on that are the same as the 7500. I have no idea if the configuration of a BGA array is the same or even the same size. I have tried removing the individual chips from the array without success.

whizkid · #9 Post by **whizkid** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:14 pm

beeblebrox wrote:What is the difference between a T40 and a T42? None! Same design, just a few bells and whistles added.

CPU on-die cache: 1MB vs 2MB
Memory: PC2100 vs PC2700

That's not nothing. HDAPS and the fingerprint reader are differences too, but not as major.

Mikem95626 · #10 Post by **Mikem95626** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:28 pm

I have always wondered if this mod was possible.
I can't wait to hear your results.
Good luck!

Pyroraptor · #11 Post by **Pyroraptor** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:54 pm

whizkid wrote:
beeblebrox wrote:What is the difference between a T40 and a T42? None! Same design, just a few bells and whistles added.
CPU on-die cache: 1MB vs 2MB
Memory: PC2100 vs PC2700

That's not nothing. HDAPS and the fingerprint reader are differences too, but not as major.

The CPU cache is on the CPU itself, not the logicboard, and the RAM speed is just due to a newer northbridge. Not very big changes.

gunston · #12 Post by **gunston** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:18 am

SO
how was the progress so far?

success?

xyz · #13 Post by **xyz** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:15 am

I've seen the mod done to swap from the 7500 to the 9000 and the 9600 on the chinese forums.

Nicola · #14 Post by **Nicola** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:55 pm

Instead the passage from 9600 to 9700 is "automatic"?

In Internet I have not found null on the Mobility 9800. It exists?

Bgradid · #15 Post by **Bgradid** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:43 pm

I thought the mobile version of the 9700 was simply a clocked up 9600 (still lacked the extra pipelines and was still far behind the performance of the desktop version)

I could be mistaken though

ulrich.von.lich · #16 Post by **ulrich.von.lich** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:03 pm

The mobile version of the 9800 does seem to exist. Check it out!

However I doubt the doability of this upgrade. If it's possible, it should've already done by someone. Some important information has to be collected before processing (compatibility of BGA as richk mentioned). Some people may have successfully swapped the 7500 to the 9000 or the 9600 but all the three cards can be found on IBM motherboards.

All I can do is to wish you best of luck!

Nicola · #17 Post by **Nicola** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:12 pm

Bgradid wrote:I thought the mobile version of the 9700 was simply a clocked up 9600 (still lacked the extra pipelines and was still far behind the performance of the desktop version)

I could be mistaken though

9700 drift also from 9600 for desktop. Beyond to a greater frequency it has a greater number of unity of calculation (shader model for example) and your transistor are built with Low-K (less consumptions).

ulrich.von.lich wrote:The mobile version of the 9800 does seem to exist. Check it out!

This videocard seemed minipci-express

Radeon HD 3000 (GPU Mobile)

Bgradid · #18 Post by **Bgradid** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:32 pm

Nicola wrote:
Bgradid wrote:I thought the mobile version of the 9700 was simply a clocked up 9600 (still lacked the extra pipelines and was still far behind the performance of the desktop version)

I could be mistaken though
9700 drift also from 9600 for desktop. Beyond to a greater frequency it has a greater number of unity of calculation (shader model for example) and your transistor are built with Low-K (less consumptions).

but the 9700 desktop version came out a full year before the 9600. The 9700 desktop version has twice as many pipelines than the 9600, though the 9600 is technically a more advanced design (just not as fast).

The 9700 mobile version however seems to have as many pipelines as the 9600 mobile version, as well as identical transistor counts, just a higher clockspeed.

Nicola · #19 Post by **Nicola** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:43 am

I read in a technical paper that the 9700 mobile is a "9600 plus" and not derivative from 9700 desktop.
I have deducted that also the 9700 mobile derivative from 9600 desktop, like the 9600 mobile.

Sace · #20 Post by **Sace** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:17 pm

Interesting project!

In fact, i have a deal in progress on a defective medion laptop - with Radeon 9700 graphics!

If i get it, i will pull the CPU and HDD, and the rest would be for sale.

Nicola · #21 Post by **Nicola** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:43 am

EXIST

N O ! No in thinkpad!

inglese
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2171&p=1

Francese
http://www.erenumerique.fr/ati_radeon_m ... 85-20.html

The 9700 have been made single in chip or also in small card?

I read about also Ati Radeon Mobility 9500

Esben · #22 Post by **Esben** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:07 pm

Impressive project! I hope it works out well.
Resoldering a BGA GPU must be some of the most difficult soldering I could think of. The idea is good, if everything GPU-related is in that BGA. Normally I'd think the BIOS chip, and VRMs would be another place.

Nicola · #23 Post by **Nicola** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:44 pm

This is not a project. This is a real!
Modern notebook have this video card, unfortunately.
Greater space occupied, greater weight, greater consumptions.

jimmy274 · #24 Post by **jimmy274** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:55 am

@beeblebrox

Hey, where did you find the specs for ATi Mobility Radeon - I'm looking for them myself, but I need complete specs for Mobility Radeon 9000 with 32MB onboard. If you have any kind of specs for Mobility 9000/9200/9600... please send them to me (of course, only if it's not a problem).
Thanks in advance...

aaa · #25 Post by **aaa** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:39 pm

Interesting link I found, to give an idea of the (dismal) success rate.

http://www.firstphasetech.com/ibook-repair-g3-g4.html

Reballing a GPU (no memory chips) - 50% success. They don't even do the GPUs with memory chips, which are the ones we're talking about.

LegendaryKA8 · #26 Post by **LegendaryKA8** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:16 am

Hey... I'm a lurker, but taking a look at what you're trying to do here...

I own a first-gen Inspiron XPS; it replaced my T40 when my GPU issue cropped up and I needed another notebook fast(don't worry, the T40's been disassembled and waiting on the re-flow treatment). This machine has the Radeon Mobility 9800 and I've been using it for a couple months. I see two major obstacles to your upgrade path:

Firstly, the Mobility 9800 in the XPS is mounted on a separate card(Dell originally planned a series of 'upgrade' video cards as time went on, but they only delivered with the 9800). If you managed to get the T42's GPU off of the mainboard without damage you might not be as fortunate getting the 9800 back on, and I'd think the success rate would be pretty low.

Also, I'm not totally sure about the GPUs in the T4x notebooks, but aren't they using shared video memory? I can't really run mine right now so I'm not 100% sure. However, the 9800 is a 256MB onboard card and I'm not sure they'd be compatible.

And... the 9800 puts out some serious heat. The card itself has a heat sink about 2/3 the size of a T4x's long fan. If you managed to get that up and running in a T42 heat issues would be your biggest enemy, to be quite honest.

Don't get me wrong. The 9800's a pretty decent card. My XPS will run pretty much anything I'd care to play and run it decently(HL2 in particular is pretty smooth with max graphics settings). However, I don't think the upgrade would be possible in a T4x.

ricerocket · #27 Post by **ricerocket** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:24 am

So how about swapping a T43 mobo w/ an x300?

DX9 calls your name.

Nicola · #28 Post by **Nicola** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:29 am

I read that Radeon Mobility 9800 is a videocard PCI-EXPRESS and not PCI. It does not derive from the 9600 but from the advanced family (non 9700 or 9800 ma X...).

jimmy274 · #29 Post by **jimmy274** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:34 am

@Nicola
Ok, fine, it doesn't really matter... All I wanna know is the pin count of the BGA package (Radeon 9000 with 32MB) - I might be able to reball in Serbia if it hass less than 800 "pins". I'm sick of reading datasheets anyway...

beeblebrox · #30 Post by **beeblebrox** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:31 pm

Hi folks,
so many comments here, I am surprised there is so much interest.

First, yes the mobile and desktop Radeons have nothing or little in common.
A mobile 9800 is very different to the desktop 9800. The Mobile 9800 is too hot for the small T40 fan assembly. There is no single chip version available right now, only the discrete subassembly. BTW, it's power requirements would blow the SMD overload fuses at the Thinkpad. The 9800 will not work.

The 9700 should be ok, but then better in a larger R50 frame with some more copper inlays, or maybe downclocked then it is no problem at all.

Reballing a single BGA is only possible with a professional machine, our industry contact can not reball large BGAs with on-top memories because they have metal heat stamp, he rather recommended simply getting a new 9700 chip from somewhere (i.e. one of the smaller generic laptop manufacturers that went bust).

We try to reach another industry contact who can solder via infrared from both sides.

I might contact a friend at AMD, maybe they have a few of those lying in a drawer. Unfortunately those mobile Radeons are so outdated now, it might be difficult to get a hold of one.

Unfortunately these MXM boards which were used by Dell and Alienware never got any chance. They cost a few dollars more and in today's market firms tend to save every penny on production costs.

In addition we were not able to get a hold of a working Dell at Fleabay. Either they worked and were expensive due to ridiculous bidding contests or their GPU was fried. Duuuhh...!!

Btw. technical material is available at ATI Radeon archives. They do not post them anymore on their homepage.

Serious upgrading of a T42 with Radeon 9700/9800

Serious upgrading of a T42 with Radeon 9700/9800

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