Got the GPU loose issue? Please post your graphic card

[ulrich.von.lich]

For those whose machine is suffering from the infamous GPU issue, sorry it has to happen. Your experience with the particular graphic card may be very useful to us.

If you own a T4x and don't have the GPU issue, please also post your graphic card so we might be able to have a general idea about the failure rates among different GPUs.


Symptoms: sudden freezing, LCD shutoff, garbled screen, refusing to come out of sleep/hibernate, blank LCD on initial boot from time to time etc (copied from ajkula66's post. thanks!)

Necessary Diagnostics: please make sure the problem is not caused by: RAM, wireless card, modem etc.. Remove them to eliminate the possibilities.

[KristianJ]

I currently have a T42p w/ FireGL T2 and T42 w/ Radeon 9600. Both good.

[ulrich.von.lich]

I just realized you can't vote for more than once. For those lucky TP owners who happen to have more than one T4 machines, please vote for the one which you spend the most time with

[aaa]

I think age would be a factor as well... the 7500 has been around the longest and thus will have the highest failure rate. Plus it's probably the most common one as well.

[Robbyrobot]

Sorry, but the limit of one vote and only one board doesn't allow a representative result. I have both a bad 7500 and a bad FireGL T2, but couldn't enter the negative vote on the second one.

To be frank, I also wonder what the point of such a poll is. There are plenty of people with such problems in a T4x with the possible exception of the T43, there have been plenty of threads on this issue and as good as no specific/concrete information on how to treat it. Questions regarding specifics are generally ignored.

From lengthy reading on the subject, my impression is that the issue can sometimes be fixed, at least temporarily, by heat treatment (being anything from waving a hot air gun around to a professional reflow oven). Often, however - and here I have personal experience - the heat treatment makes the situation worse.

Possibly the issue can be really treated by reballing the BGA package - but if anyone has ever actually done this, he certainly hasn't written about it. And there are no reports on doing this anywhere I've looked or asked.

So my personal conclusion is: buy a T4x and you risk a total loss unless you happen to be under warranty. These machines are light, powerful, sexy - and delicate as hell. Anyone with a GPU issue has only one viable option: a new mainboard, with no guarantee that the same thing won't happen again in the next 6 months or so.

Anyone with a different opinion, please correct me with loads of details about how, where and under what circumstances he repaired a defective T4x board (what type, details of symptoms). I'm definitely interested, but have seen enough conjecture, assumptions and heresay to last me quite a while.

[ajkula66]

Instead of submitting a single vote, which would be very misleading, I'm going to be slightly more detailed, to the best of my belief and recollection. So here we go:

T40/41/42 with Radeon 7500: Too many to count...both good and bad. Way too many bad ones...

As above, but with Radeon 9000/9600: Owned about 75-80, three with bad GPU.

P series with FireGl T2 : Owned 100+, 3 bad GPUs, 2 on R50p (one went bad after the sale, one bought that way) and 1 on a 14" T42p (bought that way.)

T43 with X300 and T43P with V3200: Owned about 500 total, one with bad GPU.

Hope this helps.

[FTC]

Hi, yoou should allow for more than one response or the statistics will be biased, because you will not be counting the behavior of extra machines and/or replacement boards. In my case I've worked with 3 different motherboards :

I've had a T40/7500 experiencing the GPU loose after 4 usage years.

I have a T42/9600 still going strong after 3 years

I have the T40 with a swapped T42/9600 motherboard going strong after 6 months.

[pianowizard]

My T42 has 64MB ATI Radeon 9600 and it's working flawlessly. However, the previous owner had this machine repaired by IBM just before selling it to me in August 2007. I suspect he experienced problems with the GPU.

I think the T40, 41 and 42 are the least reliable Thinkpads ever made. Considering that they are now 3 to 5 years old, and that the great majority of them no longer have warranty, I would not want to buy one unless it's very cheap (<$200 for a T40, <250 for a T41, and <$300 for a T42).

[ulrich.von.lich]

To be frank, I also wonder what the point of such a poll is. There are plenty of people with such problems in a T4x with the possible exception of the T43, there have been plenty of threads on this issue and as good as no specific/concrete information on how to treat it. Questions regarding specifics are generally ignored.

I've seen people who wanted to buy a used T4x (T42/p mostly) but hesitated because of the GPU issue, so I thought it might be helpful if we collect some feedbacks on different GPUs. Since many T4s are out of warranty, it's better to be careful when purchasing. I agree the vote doesn't seem to work out since everyone can vote only once and I never thought anyone could own hundreds of T4x... (but thanks George your post counts a lot). I guess we can never say the 9600 is less affected than the 7500 until enough votes are collected. Yes age would be a factor too. And the 7500 is probably the most common GPU used in T4 series, so naturally there are more broken ones.

As for the solution, I only know they can be fixed (maybe only temporarily) by reflowing. I wonder if the process would be the same regardless of the GPU. If someone can share his experience of reflowing, I'm sure it'd be useful for some technicians here. However for other people who don't have or know how to use a heat gun, it's better to pick up a relatively safer machine. (such as the T43 with Intel graphics)

Thanks for sharing the info everyone!

[ajkula66]

ulrich.von.lich wrote:

I agree the vote doesn't seem to work out since everyone can vote only once and I never thought anyone could own hundreds of T4x... (but thanks George your post counts a lot).

You're very welcome. That's called being a reseller who actually tests his machines before putting them up for sale...

I'm glad you haven't done this poll on a FireGL 7800, I would've had to do a lot more thinking and calculating...

[rbena]

Sorry, but the limit of one vote and only one board doesn't allow a representative result. I have both a bad 7500 and a bad FireGL T2, but couldn't enter the negative vote on the second one.

To be frank, I also wonder what the point of such a poll is.

Just gathers very general numbers on good and bad GPU's. But the limited options means the results are not totally representative. Need to allow multiple entries to provide accurate numbers - or limit the survey to 'single unit owners' only (not really representative).

[whizkid]

I have a healthy 7500 (T42) and a healthy FireGL (T41p), but couldn't vote the second time.

[underclocker]

A better set of poll questions might be to see if any T4x models are less prone to failure. Maybe set up choices for T4x's and specific GPU combinations and only check one that has failed on you.

Maybe the poll could look like this;

No failures
T40 - ATI failure
T41 - ATI failure
T42 - ATI failure
T43 - ATI failure
T43 - Intel failure


We know that every GPU type in the T40, T41 & T42's can fail. We don't know much about T43's. We also don't know how much the poduction improvements to the board helped between the first T40's and the last T42's.

Have people had the T43 ATI's fail?

[ulrich.von.lich]

Thanks underclocker for the advice, however I thought it'd be better if we could tie the problem to specific GPUs. What do you think? I've never heard of any problem with the Intel graphics, but there seems to be some T43s with bad ATI chips.

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... rboard+t43
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... rboard+t43

The T43 is often considered to be less prone to the issue than other T4x but let's not forget it's also the youngest T4 and many of them are still in warranty. So if the owner can get the machine fixed by Lenovo, he probably wouldn't need to come here for help.

Need to allow multiple entries to provide accurate numbers - or limit the survey to 'single unit owners' only (not really representative).

Correct me if I'm wrong but I couldn't set up a poll that allows multiple entries. I agree that'd be nicer. So if you own more than one machine, please feel free to post the details in the thread.

[Thomcat]

I'm thinking the long cpu heatsink and fan on models NOT having Radeon 7500s is the differentiator here. The extra cooling on the other GPUs due to them having a heatsink over the graphics chip means longer life. It's a $25 part from eBay. Those of you with healthy 7500s may want to upgrade their cpu fans for piece of mind.

[Robbyrobot]

As for the solution, I only know they can be fixed (maybe only temporarily) by reflowing. I wonder if the process would be the same regardless of the GPU. If someone can share his experience of reflowing, I'm sure it'd be useful for some technicians here.

Unless they have an X-ray machine to examine the BGAs before and after, I doubt it. This is nothing for DIYers, regardless of the occasional reports in YouTube.

My experience? I have two boards, one T41 with ATI 7500 graphics and one T41p with FireGL. The ATI 7500 board could be started if you pushed down on the GPU while pressing the power button. Once started, it would run quite nicely. The FireGL board was bought as a "flexing victim" and showed no signs of life when the power button was pressed, even when pressure was applied to the GPU or the PCB twisted.

These two boards were sent to a helpful PCB designer who has access to a "vapor reflowing oven". The way he described this is that a reflowing fluid is heated and vaporized, the vapor rises and engulfs the PCB (on a rack above the fluid), gradually heating it to the desired temperature. The temperature gradient can be programmed, and cooling is similarly gradual. Professional equipment, by the way, and very expensive - the designer had permission from his company to heat treat boards for fellow Thinkpadders on his own time, reimbursing the company for expenses. He normally uses the equipment to make pilot PCBs with SMD components.

The results were disappointing to say the least.

The FireGL board was as dead as ever, and the ATI 7500 graphics board would now no longer start. Only the fan started - and never stopped - and the board could also no longer be shut off with the power button - you have to pull the plug.

Neither of the boards were examined before or after by X-ray inspection, since unfortunately this was not available. My guess is that there is a short in the BGA graphics chip array in both boards, but that is only a guess.

The PCB designer has meanwhile ceased such treatments since the overall rate of success was very poor, although the method appeared to be both logical and promising.

This is why I personally feel that any treatment without X-ray examination is a total gamble. Flip a coin, roll the dice and maybe you can achieve something with a heat gun or a simple reflow. But if you're looking for something with any real chance of success, you're probably looking at reballing with X-ray inspection of the work. And who does that at an acceptable price?

Dead silence. Don't everyone start talking at once

[jimmy274]

Speaking as an electronics engineer... Sure, you can find someone who can just heat up the oven to 500C and burn everything, but I can find people here in Serbia that do a good BGA rework. Don't tell me that developed western countries have less experienced technicians than country that's literally falling apart.
Similar to this, everyone told me not to try to switch the CCFL in my old T23 on my own, since it's very hard and a lot of people break at least 3 CCFLs before they do it right. I opened it up, took the old one out, put the new one in, and admired the new backlight. I even twisted the backlight while installing it - nothing. I accidentally dropped the old one and it fell from the table on the hardwood floor - nothing, still working.
Have you ever heard of optimists Robbyrobot? The only problem I see is that there are a lot of people telling others what they can't do, not what they can. I'll tell you one thing you should never do - taking other people's hope, just because you have none - we're dealing with facts here, and a fact can hardly be based upon one case only...

[ulrich.von.lich]

Thanks Robbyrobot for sharing your experience with the reflowing and sorry to hear it didn't work out for you. An X-ray check seems unrealistic for many people. I believe anyone would only aim his mobo with a heat gun if the choice was that or mobo replacement. So basically you have nothing to lose.

I remember reading a thread on the forum where some member claims having high success rate of reflowing. But I can't remember his alias now.

[Paul Unger]

I'll tell you one thing you should never do - taking other people's hope, just because you have none...

I can respect that, jimmy274. There are some days I'd appreciate having you around--days when I could use your hope!

Don't tell me that developed western countries have less experienced technicians than country that's literally falling apart.

I've seen some things done in non-Western countries by people who are decidedly not technicians that would blow trained technicians away. There is a certain amount of resourcefulness required, for example, to keep an outboard engine running year after year in a salt water environment with few tools, no spare parts, no manuals, etc. It sounds to me like your Serbian friends are cut from the same cloth: "Don't tell me I can't do it because no one has done it before; let me try first, and then tell me I can't do it."

Well, enough of that. As for my T42s:

ATI7500: dead GPU; IBM replaced under warranty
ATI9600: still working, though I've seen garbled screens from time to time . . .

[Doug]

Anyone with a different opinion, please correct me with loads of details about how, where and under what circumstances he repaired a defective T4x board (what type, details of symptoms). I'm definitely interested, but have seen enough conjecture, assumptions and heresay to last me quite a while.

I repaired a bad T42 board and wrote a long detailed post about my experiences in the "T42 shuts down when I move it" thread. So far, it has been working great since the reflow.

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... &start=210

[djtopcat]

add another p.o.s 7500 to the pile!

[Robbyrobot]

Have you ever heard of optimists Robbyrobot?

Sure, those are people like me before they experienced the reality.

I'll tell you one thing you should never do - taking other people's hope, just because you have none - we're dealing with facts here, and a fact can hardly be based upon one case only...

I reported facts, not hopeful fiction. What you make of them is your business. But I personally think you're doing nobody a favor by nourishing false hopes. This is not a simple matter and it is not something that can be simply fixed by any layman. If it were, there would be a good deal fewer threads begging for help and advice on the subject.

@Doug...
Thanks for the link and the story, but unfortunately this just reinforces my feeling that you can flip a coin on such treatments. Maybe they work, maybe they don't. However, as ulrich.von.lich noted, if you have nothing to lose, why not?

[underclocker]

And the 7500 is probably the most common GPU used in T4 series, so naturally there are more broken ones.

This is probably the most useful comment on this thread. There must be 10 times as many ATI 7500-based T4x's than any other model.

ALL ATI-based T4x's are potentially affected by flex, causing the loose GPU and general machine failure. Although there isn't much/any information on loose T43 X300 GPU's.

I just picked up a T43 with the ATI X300 with the loose GPU issue.

Update (1): I thought it had the issue. It booted fine with pressure on the keyboard above the mouse buttons. Eventually, I reseated the wifi adapter and this cleared up the problem! I still can not believe it.

Update (2): It wasn't the wifi adapter, it seems to have the GPU issue when warmed up. It's going back to IBM under warranty. Pressure on the keyboard keeps it alive.

Update (3): IBM service replaced the motherboard under warranty. Apparently, the X300 GPU can come loose.

It appears that the most reliable T4x is the T43 with integrated Intel video - the jury is still out on ATI-based T43's.

Please provide feedback on these if you have any.

[Doug]

However, as ulrich.von.lich noted, if you have nothing to lose, why not?

Exactly! If your board affected by this issue and out of warranty, you have no other options other than attempting repair or replacing the board. I had already located a replacement board on ebay when I embarked on my heatgun endeavor. Even if the repair had failed, I still learned a lot in the process and actually had a bit of fun (wow, the fact that I had fun doing this makes me a HUGE nerd, doesn't it?).

Using a heatgun for reflow isn't that hard, as long as you do it properly. Use a thermometer to measure the temp of the GPU so you know when the solder is melted. Remove all the plastic insulating tape from the board because it can warp and pull components off if it gets too hot. Be very careful, methodical, and patient when disassembling and reassembling things.

Even if reflowing with a heatgun only works 10% of the time, it beats doing nothing, or paying ~$250 for a replacement part.

That being said, I think anyone planning on reflowing should go into it expecting it to fail. That way, if it works you will be pleasantly surprised. If it doesn't work, at least you will have had an interesting experience, and you can then feel good about buying a new board since you exhausted all other repair options.

[ajkula66]

Doug wrote:

That being said, I think anyone planning on reflowing should go into it expecting it to fail. That way, if it works you will be pleasantly surprised. If it doesn't work, at least you will have had an interesting experience, and you can then feel good about buying a new board since you exhausted all other repair options.

I couldn't agree more. My main A31p had the solder reflown about 3 months ago, garbled on me once when I first pulled it out of the box, and has been fine ever since, being on for about 18-20 hours a day. Will it fail again at some point? Most likely. But since it's sitting in one spot and being used as a desktop replacement, I've probably bought six months or a year of good use out of it.

Robbyrobot and Jimmy274, both very dear to me, have completely opposed approaches, and each of them has a grain of truth in it...now, the way I see it:

What Robbyrobot suggests, with use of x-rays and everything else involved, would be the proper way to go. However, with T4x series machines now in $300 range, not too many people would find it's worth their time and effort. And not too many people would buy a board for, say, $200-250. I'd junk the machine first myself. Not to mention the fact that careful use (or lack of abuse while handling it) would still remain the main issue, because on a T4x you can probably mess up a perfectly good mobo within months by putting unwanted stress on the case.

Once Jimmy274 leaves his neck of the woods, he'll find out that real resourcefulness ends where prosperity begins. What I've seen done on cars and many other things in the land of origin that we share, would leave most of western techs and restorers absolutely speechless, at best. And, honestly, I'd trust a local reflower in Belgrade more than I'd trust one in New York, for one simple reason: if you mess up my board over there, I'll come back and blow your brains out-or crush all of your fingers at least-because I'll have to go through months of serious trouble to get the replacement. So people make sure that they don't take jobs that they can't handle, and try to keep the few customers that they do have happy. In New York, unless you are really out of luck, the worst thing I can do to you is take you to court.

In the western world, people go by books, manuals and videos. And, in worst case, replacement may be costly but is available.

In the former socialist countries, books and videos may be available, but replacements are not, at least not on western terms...that's where improvisation and ingenuity come into the play, and many a times, create the winner. I've had small local shops make critical body parts for Citroen D-series more than two decades ago, long before anyone in the western hemisphere had decided that there was money in it...to make myself perfectly clear, none of us had gone into this to make money, but out of sheer despair....some money was eventually made by selling these to DS buffs abroad, but that has been just the icing on the cake...

Back to the original topic, good luck to anyone going into reflowing. And let's all hope and pray that we won't see the failure rate on these GPUs like one on FireGl 7800, which is probably 25-30% at this point at least...

Just my $0.02, obviously........

[jimmy274]

Excellent post, George... I'm speechless...
I still cannot believe that FireGL 7800 have had such a terrible reflow failure rate...

[Paul Unger]

real resourcefulness ends where prosperity begins.

That's what I was trying to say. Nicely said!

[ajkula66]

jimmy274 wrote:

I still cannot believe that FireGL 7800 have had such a terrible reflow failure rate...

I've been referring to the failure rate altogether, not the reflow failure rate...the scariest part is the fact that it's very similar to Radeon 7500...will we be seeing the same thing once most of the T40s hit the age of five, like A31p machines just have...

[Robbyrobot]

And not too many people would buy a board for, say, $200-250.

You'd be amazed what good T4x boards sell for over here, then. We're talking 200 Euros, which at the moment is around $290. Anything cheaper than that is a great exception.

So the incentive to repair defective boards is quite high, even if the options are even less than in the States (at least you have two professional reflowers/reballers of which I am aware - we have none).

The PCB designer I mentioned now plans to try reballing BGA graphics chips, as reflowing was so ineffective. I wish him luck, but the basic problem remains that you have no real control over what you're doing without X-ray graphics. And that's something very few have access to.

My opinion is that these contact problems with BGA chips in notebooks will only increase over the years, and represent a major ongoing problem until someone finally discovers the market and starts specializing in repairs. From what I've seen here in Germany, there are plenty of potential customers, and I'd be very surprised if the situation in the States were greatly different, even if good T4x boards are cheaper in your neck of the woods.

[jimmy274]

Ok guys... We need a jamiphar for PCBs
Seriously, I'll be receiving a bad R50 board tommorow, and my dad just brought me a pro heat gun - Bosch Professional GHG 660 LCD which his company uses for PVC melting (isolating rooftops). I'll be trying that out as soon as I get my hands on a infrared thermometer, and we'll see just how hard it is to reflow a R50 board. Needless to say, I'm posting as soon as I'm finished.
For those of you who aren't familiar with the R series, an R50 board is pretty much the same like T41's board.