IBM quality questions....NO I AM NOT TROLLING!!!

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#1 Post by **aamsel** » Mon May 31, 2004 2:01 pm

I promise that I am not trolling in any form, shape or fashion.
I am considering pulling the trigger on a 15" T42 order, but had a few concerns:
I have been lurking here a few weeks, and read about various issues.
YES, I am quite aware that all computers and electronics have issues to be dealt with.
My questions:
1.) I have read about the keyboard "napkin fix" and lots of people saying their keyboards flex a lot. I had heard of IBM keyboards being "the best", and was surprised that anyone with a warped or flexing keyboard wouldn't have just sent it back for an initial replacement. All I really want to know is...have their keyboards gone down in quality, and has QA diminished at all recently???
2.) Does it take 8 dead pixels to RMA a Thinkpad?? If this number varies at the time of initial order receipt than from later during the warranty period, please let me know.
3.) Last time for this question: The T42 15" 1450X1024 IS A FLEXVIEW?
Andrew
Austin, TX

ryan · #2 Post by **ryan** » Mon May 31, 2004 2:25 pm

2. I think you can return a thinkpad for any reason for the first 30 days. Add to that that dead pixels do not generally develop over time, and you're not in a whole lot of trouble with dead pixels. In the case that they do develop, I have no idea, but I doubt enough of them would develop for you to care to go through the RMA junk.

3. Yes

ian · #3 Post by **ian** » Mon May 31, 2004 2:26 pm

1. The napkin fix, from what I can glean, applies exclusively to the T41 and NOT the T42 which seems to be an R50 in reality (without such problems)
2. Dunno
3. Yes

HTH

PS. I've some spare napkins (I don't own a T41) if you do decide to buy...

#4 Post by **erik** » Mon May 31, 2004 2:27 pm

1 - i don't own a T42 and will leave that up to others to answer
2 - link: ibm pixel criteria for lcd replacement
3 - the 15" SXGA+ (1400x1050) tft lcd is flexview

-erik

ryan · #5 Post by **ryan** » Mon May 31, 2004 2:42 pm

From that site:

IBM will not provide replacement if the LCD is within specification as we can not guarantee that any replacement LCD will have zero pixel defects.

Why the heck can't they? Dell tests notebooks before they ship, why can't IBM?

eriqesque · #6 Post by **eriqesque** » Mon May 31, 2004 2:44 pm

As for the dead pixels they usually appear or don't appear on initial use
They generaly don't start popping up here and there over time.
So if you get an LCD that has 1 or 50 you have 30 days no qustions asked return policy.

ian · #7 Post by **ian** » Mon May 31, 2004 2:52 pm

eriqesque wrote:So if you get an LCD that has 1 or 50 you have 30 days no qustions asked return policy.

That's not quite what the IBM site says now is it...

Leon · #8 Post by **Leon** » Mon May 31, 2004 3:13 pm

yes, the dead pixel policy (poor little pixels

) applies ANYTIME during the warrenty period... so, in spite of what others have said, IF more develop, they will replace within waaranty

#9 Post by **aamsel** » Mon May 31, 2004 3:17 pm

Is the T42 an R50 in reality?? If so, is this a step up, down or level from a T41 in terms of quality???
Andrew
Austin, TX

ian wrote:...the T42 which seems to be an R50 in reality...

ian · #10 Post by **ian** » Mon May 31, 2004 3:18 pm

I'm sorry, what I was trying to say was that the idea that *one* dead pixel will get your screen replaced is not true - sad really to think that we need scores of dead and dying pixels (I can hear the screams) before we get a perfect item...

eriqesque · #11 Post by **eriqesque** » Mon May 31, 2004 3:20 pm

ian wrote:
eriqesque wrote:So if you get an LCD that has 1 or 50 you have 30 days no qustions asked return policy.
That's not quite what the IBM site says now is it...

Well I wasn't quoting the IBM site
I am simply stating that within your 1st 30 days it doesn't really matter how many or how little dead pixels it has or doesn't have.
You can simply return it for ANY reason.

#12 Post by **aamsel** » Mon May 31, 2004 3:22 pm

No, in fact, for a 15" 1450X1024 SXGA screen it says:
"11 bright dots, 13 dark dots, 16 bright and dark dots". Wouldn't that be 16 DEAD PIXELS FOR REPLACEMENT!!!?????
Or, am I confusing pixels and sub-pixels??
Andrew
Austin, TX

ian wrote:
eriqesque wrote:So if you get an LCD that has 1 or 50 you have 30 days no qustions asked return policy.
That's not quite what the IBM site says now is it...

dt · #13 Post by dt » Mon May 31, 2004 3:25 pm

The napkin fix, from what I can glean, applies exclusively to the T41 and NOT the T42 which seems to be an R50 in reality (without such problems)

I have a T42 14" (2378FVU), and it has the keyboard problem. I will reseat the keyboard and try the napkin fix.

ryan · #14 Post by **ryan** » Mon May 31, 2004 3:40 pm

aamsel wrote:No, in fact, for a 15" 1450X1024 SXGA screen it says:
"11 bright dots, 13 dark dots, 16 bright and dark dots". Wouldn't that be 16 DEAD PIXELS FOR REPLACEMENT!!!?????
Or, am I confusing pixels and sub-pixels??
Andrew
Austin, TX

I think the "and column" means you can have for example 10 bright dots and 6 dark dots to send it back.

So, you can have 11+ bright dots and 0+ darks, 13+ darks and 0+ brights, or any combination of the two that adds to 16+.

#15 Post by **aamsel** » Mon May 31, 2004 3:47 pm

So, is it common knowledge that the current keyboards are more flimsy than on past models?? With more flex??
I ask because I just saw an HP nc8000 and it was solid as a rock (case, keyboard, etc.) No flex whatsoever, and I am trying to decide what I want. (Yes, I know that the HP is thicker and Klutzier, but it is a solid machine.)
Andrew
Austin, TX

dt wrote:
The napkin fix, from what I can glean, applies exclusively to the T41 and NOT the T42 which seems to be an R50 in reality (without such problems)
I have a T42 14" (2378FVU), and it has the keyboard problem. I will reseat the keyboard and try the napkin fix.

akerman · #16 Post by **akerman** » Mon May 31, 2004 4:00 pm

The keyboard is still worldclass, even though it flexes a tiny bit in the right side.. it's not something you notice when typing.

Edit: How do you count the number of faulty pixels on your monitor? Because I have a whole line of them - making it very difficult, to count how many there actually are, because the pixels are so tiny, and sit so close together.

Edit2: ARGH!! The "8 dead pixels" number is only for XGA... *cry* I'll never reach 11 dead pixels... bhuuhuu

cynic · #17 Post by **cynic** » Mon May 31, 2004 4:05 pm

The T42 is not a R50p. THe T42 with the 15" is similar to the R50. The T still has the same T series attributes of case materials. It is similar because the T with the 15" is slightly larger in order to fit the bigger screen.

The keyboard on the 15" is supposedly better supported in the corner than the 14"T models. This is not a "keyboard" issue. The keyboard is still great. It is a design issue for support of the metal plate that the keys of the keyboard are mounted to. The "napkin/business card" fix creates another support point for the keyboard so that it doesn't depress quite as far down near the arrow keys. I'm guessing since the 15" models have more room around the keyboard due to being wider, there were more support points added to that side (probably just one)

The "not laying flat" keyboards are not within IBM spec. This must be a problem associated with assembly or manufacturing of the keyboards (I just realized that IBM has added another source-company for the keyboards for newer models-- I wonder if has anything to do with that; they now have 2 companies making the keyboards for the T series) BTW, I've never read anyone say "their keyboards flex a lot."

IBM does check models as much as Dell does (if not more) This is an official policy (every company has one, including Dell) and it is to VESA specs on LCDs (yes, even the 16 sub-pixels issue.) The amount allowable by VESA increases as there are more pixels to deal with (so higher resolution, more sub-pixels allowed to go bad) If you are in the US, and buy from IBM, you have 30 days to return no-questions-asked (and then you just order another one.) Problem solved (if there is even a problem in the first place.) IBM's official policy doesn't vary over the course of ownership, just what you can do (so due to the 30 day guarantee, you can send back and reorder to get a perfect screen) Dell's policies work the same way. Also, the VESA numbers are in sub-pixels and so is that IBM policy (each pixel has 3 sub-pixels)

It is rare for pixels to die down the line of ownership.. more common problems with LCDs is cable fraying (since all laptop cables have to go through the hinge at some point) or backlights failing (sorry, they're just bulbs so eventually they'll go.) Cable fraying symptoms are vertical lines on the LCD of either dead or haphazard colours. Backlight failing usually looks like the screen having a pink ovecast creeping in from the edges and at reduced brightness modes, it get a lot worse because the backlight isn't burning bright enough to illuminate the whole screen.

The T42 15" SXGA+ is a FlexView. The resolution is a proper 1400x1050, which is 4:3 standard ratio. You've written the wrong pixel numbers enough times that I'm guessing it's not a typo anymore.

As for QA, it hasn't gone down at all and is still the highest of any companies' products I've seen. Realize, some of us just like things tailored a bit more to the way we work (I'll admit it, I complain when things aren't "my way"

) The issues being discussed are mostly very, very minor.

edited for resolution name typo

cynic · #18 Post by **cynic** » Mon May 31, 2004 4:10 pm

aamsel wrote:So, is it common knowledge that the current keyboards are more flimsy than on past models?? With more flex??
I ask because I just saw an HP nc8000 and it was solid as a rock (case, keyboard, etc.) No flex whatsoever, and I am trying to decide what I want. (Yes, I know that the HP is thicker and Klutzier, but it is a solid machine.)
Andrew
Austin, TX

OK, now that's funny.

We have 2 of those at work and no one wants to use them (they're now used as loaners for visitors because no one wanted to work on them.) The keyboard on the HP nc8000 is horrible compared to the T4x series keyboards. If you think that keyboard is rock solid, you've got nothing to worry about with any of the T models. I'd definitely say that thinkpad owners are a pickier bunch.

ian · #19 Post by **ian** » Mon May 31, 2004 4:11 pm

I humbly beg everyones pardon (I'm in fact flaying myself as I write this) I did not mean to imply that the T42 was an R50 - more that the case, AND the top cover (Ultranav etc.) have already been used in the R50.

Sorry, I'll try to be more explicit in future

#20 Post by **aamsel** » Mon May 31, 2004 4:12 pm

Not a typo, just a matter of being dead wrong! I do it all the time! <grin>
Andrew
Austin, TX

cynic wrote:...The T42 15" SVGA+ is a FlexView. The resolution is a proper 1400x1050, which is 4:3 standard ratio. You've written the wrong pixel numbers enough times that I'm guessing it's not a typo anymore...

cynic · #21 Post by **cynic** » Mon May 31, 2004 4:16 pm

aamsel wrote:Not a typo, just a matter of being dead wrong! I do it all the time! <grin>
Andrew
Austin, TX

cynic wrote:...The T42 15" SXGA+ is a FlexView. The resolution is a proper 1400x1050, which is 4:3 standard ratio. You've written the wrong pixel numbers enough times that I'm guessing it's not a typo anymore...

Didn't want you to be disappointed with missing pixels...

#22 Post by **aamsel** » Mon May 31, 2004 4:20 pm

This is precisely the information that I really want, because I can't see a T42 until I order one. Anybody that has seen both the HP and the Thinkpad are the people that I would like to here from. PM me if you prefer. I realize this forum will be heavily biased toward the IBM (obviously) so honesty greatly appreciated. The T42 and the nc8000 are not the only notebooks I have considered (in that I have considered them all). One of my finalists is the ASUS M6N and Mitac 8050 which are less money, more features, questionable quality compared to an IBM or even HP business class notebook. Anyone with any advice, please send it my direction, because I need to make a final decision THIS WEEK.
Also, in NO way am I trying to be negative about the IBM models, I just want to know as much of the truth about everything as I make a decision.
Thanks,
Andrew
Austin, TX

cynic wrote:
aamsel wrote:So, is it common knowledge that the current keyboards are more flimsy than on past models?? With more flex??
I ask because I just saw an HP nc8000 and it was solid as a rock (case, keyboard, etc.) No flex whatsoever, and I am trying to decide what I want. (Yes, I know that the HP is thicker and Klutzier, but it is a solid machine.)
Andrew
Austin, TX
OK, now that's funny.

We have 2 of those at work and no one wants to use them (they're now used as loaners for visitors because no one wanted to work on them.) The keyboard on the HP nc8000 is horrible compared to the T4x series keyboards. If you think that keyboard is rock solid, you've got nothing to worry about with any of the T models. I'd definitely say that thinkpad owners are a pickier bunch.

atlacatl · #23 Post by **atlacatl** » Mon May 31, 2004 4:35 pm

ryan wrote:From that site:

IBM will not provide replacement if the LCD is within specification as we can not guarantee that any replacement LCD will have zero pixel defects.
Why the heck can't they? Dell tests notebooks before they ship, why can't IBM?

Hm? I beg to differ on Dell's laptop LCD checking: I personally had to return a Inspiron 8200 because of dead pixels. The original and 2 replacements. After the 3rd LCD, I gave up and just got my money back - I was within 30 days of purchase.

cynic · #24 Post by **cynic** » Mon May 31, 2004 4:35 pm

Well, where I work, we've done some business for HP so they gave us those notebooks as a gift and we get substanial savings on anything from them. So far we haven't taken them up on any of their offers (though we're considering getting an Itanium from them for cheap just to play around with EPIC programming) Those notebooks left a bad taste in our mouth: the 1600x1200 resolution screens were kind of washed-out, they got very, very warm, and no one likes the keyboards.

I haven't worked with any of the whitebox laptop makers (or rebranded versions) so I can't give you any insight there. I will wholeheartedly admit that IBM laptops aren't perfect... it's just that they happen to be heads-and-tails above any other laptops out there at the moment. It's come to the point that when I want to venture off the path (HP, Dell, Sony, Fujitsu), I always get burned so I've learned my lessons. In today's market, I don't even see I have a choice in laptops since the IBMs are the only ones that come close to measuring up to what I'm looking for. It's either that or go for a desktop. This is actually bad, IMO, because I'd like a little more competition for the dollars I'm willing to spend; at least IBM is always developing new tech or ergonomics to better the user experience and isn't resting on their laurels. Whatever the case, if IBM quality were to go down, I'd probably stop buying laptops until another company finally "gets it" on how to make a great laptop and what's important to mobile users.

kangazoom · #25 Post by **kangazoom** » Mon May 31, 2004 4:37 pm

cynic -- but if you return a thinkpad within the thirty days, don't you still have to pay a 15% restocking fee ?

cynic · #26 Post by **cynic** » Mon May 31, 2004 4:40 pm

kangazoom wrote:cynic -- but if you return a thinkpad within the thirty days, don't you still have to pay a 15% restocking fee ?

There's no restocking fee for any of their models. (You suddenly reminded me of Apple's great policies

)

You only have to pay shipping back (which comes to about $8.00 UPS ground with insurance from California)

#27 Post by **aamsel** » Mon May 31, 2004 4:41 pm

OK, great, so forgetting about the HP then (I won't get one), if anybody who has a T41/42 series has seen an ASUS M6N and can comment on the pros and cons of either, I would be all ears.
Andrew
Austin, TX

cynic wrote:Well, where I work, we've done some business for HP so they gave us those notebooks as a gift and we get substanial savings on anything from them. So far we haven't taken them up on any of their offers (though we're considering getting an Itanium from them for cheap just to play around with EPIC programming) Those notebooks left a bad taste in our mouth: the 1600x1200 resolution screens were kind of washed-out, they got very, very warm, and no one likes the keyboards.

I haven't worked with any of the whitebox laptop makers (or rebranded versions) so I can't give you any insight there. I will wholeheartedly admit that IBM laptops aren't perfect... it's just that they happen to be heads-and-tails above any other laptops out there at the moment. It's come to the point that when I want to venture off the path (HP, Dell, Sony, Fujitsu), I always get burned so I've learned my lessons. In today's market, I don't even see I have a choice in laptops since the IBMs are the only ones that come close to measuring up to what I'm looking for. It's either that or go for a desktop. This is actually bad, IMO, because I'd like a little more competition for the dollars I'm willing to spend; at least IBM is always developing new tech or ergonomics to better the user experience and isn't resting on their laurels. Whatever the case, if IBM quality were to go down, I'd probably stop buying laptops until another company finally "gets it" on how to make a great laptop and what's important to mobile users.

akeskira · #28 Post by **akeskira** » Mon May 31, 2004 4:52 pm

(2) My X30 developed one morning after about 18 months of use a dark ~3x3 pixel area. On the first call IBM said they wouldn't replace it, but when I asked our sysadmin to call again and push a little they agreed to have a look at the display. IBM sent the Airborne Express box and after two days I had my X30 back with a flawless new display.

Antti

asiafish · #29 Post by **asiafish** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:25 pm

cynic wrote:Whatever the case, if IBM quality were to go down, I'd probably stop buying laptops until another company finally "gets it" on how to make a great laptop and what's important to mobile users.

I'd go back to an ancient monochrome 486 laptop before I switched to a desktop machine. I'd give up any amount of speed and perhaps even quality not to be tied to a desk.

Well if IBM (or Lenovo) every did cheap out the ThinkPads, I'd just go buy a bunch of older T-series on eBay and stay with the old ones.

dvorak · #30 Post by **dvorak** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:52 am

To sum all the current design flaws/quirks/annoyances one may exhibit on his T42:
1. Keyboard flex near the right side.
- Fixable with some foam/napkin/card etc
2. Crack on the right side of the LCD bezel, also the LCD moves a bit, does a clicking sound when pressed on the right side.
3. Palmrest creak just next to the touchpad, right side.
4. Palmrest creak just below touchpad buttons, when pressed directly.
5. Battery loose.
- Fixable by getting a Sony battery or applying foam and heating the hooks.
6. Battery bending the LPT/AC "station", hence some electronic-components are visible from the crack that's between the LCD and battery.
7. Top cover a bit loose, hooks don't close tight.
8. Slow red pixels on LCD, near the bottom, when switching to black screen, dissapear within 10 seconds.
9. A darker side on FlexView LCDs, kind of yellowish.
10. A reported higher vertical brightness lines on FlexView LCDs when windows are open on a black background.
11. Vertical color inconsistency on non-FlexView LCDs.

None the less, when compared to the rest it's the best.
Not to mention the service, which is truly a pleasure to deal with when needed.

IBM quality questions....NO I AM NOT TROLLING!!!

IBM quality questions....NO I AM NOT TROLLING!!!

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