Please, opinions from T20 and T23 users

Message

Thinker · #1 Post by **Thinker** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:27 pm

Hi,

I am finally getting an X31 as opposed to a T42 as my primary machine, but I am going to get a backup unit as well. It is between the T20 and T23.
I don't need a fast computer, just a solid and reliable one.
Are there any issues with the T20 as opposed to the T23?
What makes the T23 superior besides a faster bus speed/CPU/GPU?

Also, are they hardware (I am talking about the outer casing, ports, etc) compatible? Meaning that if I got my hands on a T23 system board, could I just replace the T20 system board in the future and it would become a T23 (FrankenT23 if you wish?)

I remember when the T20 came out it used to be the top of the top, is it still a good machine?

Thanks,

Ruben

SimonCC · #2 Post by **SimonCC** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:58 pm

simple: get a t22 - i have one as my back-up, they are lightning quick and very reliable. I use mine with Win 98se and it is perfect! Dont bother paying more for a t23, you wont notice any differance and dont bother with a t20 as its a step backwards (its also very noisy). I swear that the build quality on the t22 is just incredible as is the performance especially for simple tasks like mailing, office work etc.

Thinker · #3 Post by **Thinker** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:34 pm

SimonCC wrote:simple: get a t22 - i have one as my back-up, they are lightning quick and very reliable. I use mine with Win 98se and it is perfect! Dont bother paying more for a t23, you wont notice any differance and dont bother with a t20 as its a step backwards (its also very noisy). I swear that the build quality on the t22 is just incredible as is the performance especially for simple tasks like mailing, office work etc.

Hi Simon,

Interesting...I hadn't consider the T22, because I thought I remembered that when it came out there were a bunch of complaints from users coming up with lots of problems regarding the build quality (I distinctly seem to remember problems regarding the screen going blank because of loose connectors or something). Maybe I'm confusing this with another T model?
Ok, I'm considering the T22 then as an alternative.
Thanks for your thoughts.

Ruben

SimonCC · #4 Post by **SimonCC** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:39 pm

just make sure that you buy grade A stock - these are excellant and usually come with 3 month warranties, so should anything go wrong within that time you are covered, you might even be able to extend it although im not sure, good luck!

Thinker · #5 Post by **Thinker** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:46 pm

Hey thanks

I assume the T22 doesn't have any of this hidden partition business, and so it is easier to backup/image than the newer models, right?

If you haven't messed with this aspect of the T22 just don't respond, no big deal.

SimonCC · #6 Post by **SimonCC** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:01 pm

yep, thats right.

tselling · #7 Post by **tselling** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:22 pm

I have previously owned all the T2x series Thinkpads and the main differences that I found are: The T22 added support for booting from a USB floppy (T20 and T21 cannot boot from USB). The T23 can take up to 1gb ram (PC133) but the T22 and older models take a max of 512mb (PC100). Some T23 models have built-in wireless.

Also the t20, t21, t22 can swap systemboards. But the T23 doesn't fit in those models.

Conmee · #8 Post by **Conmee** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:42 pm

T23 uses PC133 v. PC100 memory, and is also expandable to 1GB v. 512MB for T20/21/22... and two USB ports instead of 1 for the 20/21/22 models... also T23 generally comes with larger hard drive, and supports an 802.11b wireless Mini-PCI card so you don't have to use one of the PCMCIA ports to get basic wifi connectivity with the T23.

Daniel.

awolfe63 · #9 Post by **awolfe63** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:28 pm

1) T23 has two USB
2) High-end T23 has SXGA+

beeblebrox · #10 Post by **beeblebrox** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:08 am

I have been using the T20 since it came out in 2001. Upgraded it to 900MHz, full memory and new silent drives.

Excellent machine, when working in office, it is dead-silent. No fan, no drive noise, nothing.

However, I would suggest to get rather the T23 (in SXGA+ if possible), because the memory and I/O system is faster. The disk operations are way faster (DMA 100/66 instead of 33) and the built-in wireless is great. Further, the second USB is very important, when you need it ( I have a mouse and a printer plugged in, so on the T20 I need a USB hub).

Otherwise, if you don't need very high performance, the T20-T22 are dirt cheap on eBay these days.

Conmee · #11 Post by **Conmee** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:48 am

Awolfe and beeblebrox,

Good call, I forgot about the faster I/O and SXGA+... Go T23!!! lol

Daniel.

Thinker · #12 Post by **Thinker** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:54 pm

tselling wrote:I have previously owned all the T2x series Thinkpads and the main differences that I found are: The T22 added support for booting from a USB floppy (T20 and T21 cannot boot from USB). The T23 can take up to 1gb ram (PC133) but the T22 and older models take a max of 512mb (PC100). Some T23 models have built-in wireless.

Also the t20, t21, t22 can swap systemboards. But the T23 doesn't fit in those models.

Hi Teresa,

That's some great information. I wasn't aware about the USB floppy boot support. Nice to know T20, T21, and T22 can swap system boards.

Thanks!

Ruben

Thinker · #13 Post by **Thinker** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:56 pm

Conmee wrote:T23 uses PC133 v. PC100 memory, and is also expandable to 1GB v. 512MB for T20/21/22... and two USB ports instead of 1 for the 20/21/22 models... also T23 generally comes with larger hard drive, and supports an 802.11b wireless Mini-PCI card so you don't have to use one of the PCMCIA ports to get basic wifi connectivity with the T23.

Daniel.

Hi Daniel,

Indeed, 1Gb is a big issue for me. Not so much the wireless card support, but good to know anyway.

Thanks!

Ruben

Thinker · #14 Post by **Thinker** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:59 pm

awolfe63 wrote:1) T23 has two USB
2) High-end T23 has SXGA+

Andrew,

Two USB sounds good, but I'm using external Firewire and USB 2.0 HD enclosures myself, so I usually connect them with PCMCIA interfaces. But it's always good to have some spare USB connections just in case.

Thanks,

Ruben

Thinker · #15 Post by **Thinker** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:02 pm

beeblebrox wrote:I have been using the T20 since it came out in 2001. Upgraded it to 900MHz, full memory and new silent drives.

Excellent machine, when working in office, it is dead-silent. No fan, no drive noise, nothing.

However, I would suggest to get rather the T23 (in SXGA+ if possible), because the memory and I/O system is faster. The disk operations are way faster (DMA 100/66 instead of 33) and the built-in wireless is great. Further, the second USB is very important, when you need it ( I have a mouse and a printer plugged in, so on the T20 I need a USB hub).

Otherwise, if you don't need very high performance, the T20-T22 are dirt cheap on eBay these days.

Beeblebrox,

What CPUs do you upgrade a T20 with? Is it Pentium III, or Pentium III M?
Can the T20 take just regular PIII (as in desktop computers) CPUs. I'm a newcomer to the mobile world, and I don't even know if Pentium III CPUs specifical for laptops existed.

To tell you the truth, I'm leaning more and more towards a T23.

Thanks for all your help guys!

Ruben

matty · #16 Post by **matty** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:04 pm

I use a T21 with 1400X1050 resolution (sxga?)
I upgraded the HD to 60GB and I have 500MB Ram. Also CDRW DVD.
It totally is fantastic and I never have had a problem.

I don't have $1500 for a new T4x so this machine will do.
Go for the T23. It has the faster I/O motherboard.
Try to get the wireless and the SXGA screen.

<rant> why spend over $1000 for speed that you will only use less than 1% of the time? Email and web browsing does not need more than PIII 800MHZ / 256MB Ram... (at least for the next 12 months)! This computer was $500. I get 1.5Hrs Battery life too. What else do i need? I don't do graphics/video work... only sys admin.

Also, if you take care of your windows XP (defrag/chkdsk/don't install bad software), your computer will stay fast! My laptop has at least 50 programs on it, and it still performs faster than some of my clients T40s, and they only run outlook and IE!

Faster and faster and faster the computers go, Would you buy a $3000 dishwasher that washed your dishes with 1 cup of water in 15 seconds? Yeah, thats really cool, but I can buy a lot of sponges for that.
</rant>

beeblebrox · #17 Post by **beeblebrox** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:29 am

Hello Ruben,

you can put any Pentium III into the T2x series, as long as it is a micro-PGA2 type. These are only mobile Pentium III porcessors. The range is from 600-1100Mhz. However you need the larges cooling system for range above 850MHz.

The T23 is very different. Similar to the new T43, which is very different to T40-T42, because of a completely new chip set. The T23 uses the much better Mobile Pentium III-M.
Faster, larger cache, and in 130nm, instead of 180nm technology (less power consumption).
The new chip set is way faster.

If you have the choice of a T20-T22 and a T23, definitely go for the T23 even for a small upgrade fee.

Thinker · #18 Post by **Thinker** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:17 pm

matty wrote: Faster and faster and faster the computers go, Would you buy a $3000 dishwasher that washed your dishes with 1 cup of water in 15 seconds? Yeah, thats really cool, but I can buy a lot of sponges for that.

Matty,

I am very interested in this product, can I send you a money order right now for it? Just kidding

You are absolutely right, if at some point (let's say 2 years ago) you were productive with some software running on some machine, there's no reason you can't still be productive with the same software and hardware two years later.

Of course, there are areas in which hardware advances are just a plain necessity (try ripping a DVD to MPEG, or rendering/editing digital video), but what is sad is that most home users that don't know any better get conned every 2 years by believing they DO NEED to buy the newest/latest so that they can surf the web, write email, or watch DVDs in their computer at "blazing speeds". It's really a matter of knowing which software to use for the task. So much of newer software products is just bloated crap designed to slow down your hardware, that you can't but wonder if there is some sort of conspiracy going on.

Thinker · #19 Post by **Thinker** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:24 pm

beeblebrox wrote:Hello Ruben,

you can put any Pentium III into the T2x series, as long as it is a micro-PGA2 type. These are only mobile Pentium III porcessors. The range is from 600-1100Mhz. However you need the larges cooling system for range above 850MHz.

The T23 is very different. Similar to the new T43, which is very different to T40-T42, because of a completely new chip set. The T23 uses the much better Mobile Pentium III-M.
Faster, larger cache, and in 130nm, instead of 180nm technology (less power consumption).
The new chip set is way faster.

If you have the choice of a T20-T22 and a T23, definitely go for the T23 even for a small upgrade fee.

Hello Beeblebrox,

Thanks for the clarification. It does seem that the T23 should have perhaps received another denomination (Maybe T30?), since it seems to be a substantial upgrade on the previous members of the T2x class.

I was actually looking in eBay for Micro PGA2 processors, and there isn't much of an offering (Wasn't able to find anything above 850 Mhz, and what is being offered looks exclusively like system pulls).

Perhaps upgrading a CPU from 750 to 900 Mhz won't have such a noticeable effect as upgrading the HD to 72K and doubling the memory.
I wonder if upgrading a 42K drive to a 72K one would give any problems due to overheating.

Thanks,

Ruben

JHEM · #20 Post by **JHEM** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:34 pm

Thinker wrote:Perhaps upgrading a CPU from 750 to 900 Mhz won't have such a noticeable effect as upgrading the HD to 72K and doubling the memory.

The number one thing you can do to increase the performance of a laptop is to max out the memory.

Thinker wrote:I wonder if upgrading a 42K drive to a 72K one would give any problems due to overheating.

The 7K HDs actually run cooler than many older HDs.

Regards,

James

Thinker · #21 Post by **Thinker** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:45 pm

JHEM wrote:
Thinker wrote:Perhaps upgrading a CPU from 750 to 900 Mhz won't have such a noticeable effect as upgrading the HD to 72K and doubling the memory.
The number one thing you can do to increase the performance of a laptop is to max out the memory.
Thinker wrote:I wonder if upgrading a 42K drive to a 72K one would give any problems due to overheating.
The 7K HDs actually run cooler than many older HDs.

Regards,

James

James,

I have heard that about the memory, thanks for confirming. The T20 maxes out at 512 Mb, but that will be more than sufficient for this machine (As of now I am using a Tecra 8100

with 384 Mb ram, and it is more than enough for my requirements).

Regarding the 7K drives running cooler than some older and slower HDs I guess it shouldn't be too surprising due to the advances in technology, but I really didn't know that. Thanks for pointing it out.

Regards,

Ruben

beeblebrox · #22 Post by **beeblebrox** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:13 pm

Ruben,
I actually upgraded from 750Mhz to 900Mhz, and it is the MAGIC step!
Because at around 850MHz or higher, I can finally use WinDVD with the DOLBY Surround settings turned on.
With 750MHZ the performance is just a bit too low. But at 900Mhz it is perfect.

You can check on your system setting how much memory your system requires. Actually 384MB should be ok for most things, with 512 being always better.

I don't like the 7200 drive, it is way too noisy, I can't concentrate on my work. Rather would I buy a 5k80 which is almost as performant and way more silent.

beeblebrox · #23 Post by **beeblebrox** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:45 pm

The T20/T21/T22 use the Mobile Pentium III (up to 1Ghz, 180nm, 100MHZ FSB, 256kb cache), the T23 has the newer chipset and the Mobile Pentium III-M (up to 1.2Ghz, 130nm, 133Mhz FSB, 512kb cache).

You can not exchange processors or DRAMs between the two.
The T23 uses much faster disk I/O with the newer chip set and is more lively with daily work (faster, uhmm... is faster!).

However, if you use word, powerpoint etc. then the CPU is in idle mode most of the time anyway. Check what you want to do and possibly save 100 bucks and get the T21/T22.

starbot · #24 Post by **starbot** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 7:04 pm

I've been using a T22 machine for several years now. The lcd suffered damage and eventually became unusable, so i took it off. It is now just the bottom half keyboard/cpu unit tied to my 14" crt. I can't afford anything more at this time, but as others have said, it works perfectly for most of my needs (although an lcd would be nice

).

For what it's worth I'd definately recommend the T22, it's and excellant, reliable, and robust machine.

I personally can't wait to get a T50 for college next year.

Thinker · #25 Post by **Thinker** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:16 pm

beeblebrox,

Thanks for that great information. It seems the T23's battery should indeed last longer and run cooler due to the 130 micron process as opposed to the 180 one.

As you probably know, I decided on a T23 (A nightmare of its own due to the eBay seller absolutely misrepresenting the condition of the unit). However, I then ordered from IBM's Certified Used program, and my computer should arrive within a few days.

starbot,

Have you thought about replacing the LCD screen yourself? Maybe you can come across a cheap LCD part and then install it yourself following the Hardware Maintenance Manual instructions from IBM. On the other hand, if it works fine with your CRT and you don't need to make it portable, why bother.

Thanks for your comments about the build quality of the T22. Are all the members of the T2x group supposed to have the same exterior build components (as far as outer casing) pretty much, or did the design change some time within the T2x line?

Ruben

ambientscape · #26 Post by **ambientscape** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:38 pm

Overall T22 is a bomb proof machine!! hahaha! Used it for almost 3 years now....still working fine and just upgraded the hard drive to 60GB 5400rpm....it boot up like a champ!! faster than the original 20GB 4200rpm......
Even the T22 is kinda obsolete now....but it still stand out in the crowd..

beeblebrox · #27 Post by **beeblebrox** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:10 am

For Thinker:

In terms of battery life, there is no difference between 130nm and 180nm, because due to the chip's higher packaging density, Intel put in more cache (sucks more current) and features and increased the speed.
So power consumption stays almost the same (check Intel pages... around 25Watts).

The T23 housing is somewhat different (different motherboard and venting system, more USB ports, etc. different material). But no much difference.

Actually, I still believe, that the T2x series had one of the best notebook design ever.

Thinker · #28 Post by **Thinker** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:02 pm

beeblebrox wrote:For Thinker:

In terms of battery life, there is no difference between 130nm and 180nm, because due to the chip's higher packaging density, Intel put in more cache (sucks more current) and features and increased the speed.
So power consumption stays almost the same (check Intel pages... around 25Watts).

The T23 housing is somewhat different (different motherboard and venting system, more USB ports, etc. different material). But no much difference.

Actually, I still believe, that the T2x series had one of the best notebook design ever.

beeblebrox,

Thanks for the explanation about energy consumption and built of the T23.

I agree about the T2x being a very nice design (I'm just talking from the standpoint of looks here, since I have only been on a T23 for 20 minutes or so, so I can't comment about usability).
The first time I saw a T21 (about 4 years ago, after buying a Tecra 8100) I was immediately impressed. Actually, it made me think for some reason about a laptop that Darth Vader might use, due to the black casing and the sharp corners.

Please, opinions from T20 and T23 users

Please, opinions from T20 and T23 users

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