T4x GPU Problem - Alternate Fix - R51 Mobo w/Intel GPU!

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SaberX · #31 Post by **SaberX** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:46 am

underclocker wrote: For SXGA+, an R52 motherboard is the only alernative that will work, as far as I know. If you do the swap, you will effectively have a T43.

What about the T43 board with intel video?
I'm thinking R52 and the T43 intel video boards are "almost" the same.
After takeing this t41 around with me the past while,i just may put it up for trade for a small laptop.

#32 Post by **underclocker** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:08 pm

SaberX wrote: What about the T43 board with intel video?
I'm thinking R52 and the T43 intel video boards are "almost" the same.

I believe the Intel GPU motherboard part number between some T43's and some R52's may be exactly the same - it's just a matter of which model number was written to the BIOS. They actually use the same BIOS image, see below for description info from the T43/R52 BIOS update;

BIOS Update (Non-Diskette) - ThinkPad R52 (1858, 1859, 1860, 1861, 1862, 1863, 1958), T43 (1871, 1872, 1873, 1874, 1875, 1876)

That is why I say you would effectively have a T43 if you used an R52 motherboard in your T41.

#33 Post by **schen** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:01 pm

underclocker wrote:I believe the Intel GPU motherboard part number between some T43's and some R52's may be exactly the same - it's just a matter of which model number was written to the BIOS. They actually use the same BIOS image, see below for description info from the T43/R52 BIOS update;

That is why I say you would effectively have a T43 if you used an R52 motherboard in your T41.

I'll hopefully be able to check this out soon since I just bought an As Is R52 (1859) on eBay for my "Underclocker Special" T/R452 project. I recently picked up a 15" T42 chassis and am in the process of accumulating the missing parts and hopefully a 15" SXGA+ Flexview as well... someday.

#34 Post by **underclocker** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:54 pm

That is a really nice project. Definitley, post details as it comes together. With a little skill, it's amazing what you can piece together from inexpensive eBay parts.

We may need a new forum section for FrankenPads!

awake724 · #35 Post by **awake724** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:04 am

I have a T42 2378-FZU 15" ThinkPad that has started to experience the GPU problem and swapping the mobo seems like the best option for me.

Would I be able to use the R51 board? It's XGA...what else do I need to buy? Do you have a part num?

Lastly, was it a relatively easy thing to do?

Any advice is much appreciated!

#36 Post by **underclocker** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:17 pm

awake724 wrote: Would I be able to use the R51 board? It's XGA...what else do I need to buy? Do you have a part num?

Lastly, was it a relatively easy thing to do?

Yes, you can use the R51 board. 14 & 15" T42's (as do 14 & 15" R51's) use the same motherboard, there are just a few extender pieces on the 15" model which you will reuse.

The part number is 93P4201, but there might be others. You are looking for the one with Intel video and the 10/100 Ethernet port. The 10/100/100 Ethernet port version board will work, too, but it has a FireWire port, so you'd have to decide whether to fashion a connector hole in the T42 case or just disconnect the connector cable. I suppose you'd have a phantom FireWire port in your device manager (no big issue).

You need nothing else, you'll just reuse all of your existing parts except the dead motherboard.

Easy? That depends, for me I had to completely disassemble an R51 parts machine that I bought on eBay, then completely disassemble my T41, then rebuild the T41. It wasn't my first mobo swap, so I did it in under an hour. It's not hard, but it takes time and you have to keep all the screws and parts in order. Use the IBM Hardware Maintenance Manuals as a guide.

I've been using mine nearly every day for about a month and I love it. It's quiet, fast and reliable.

Good luck.

#37 Post by **schen** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:16 pm

We'll unfortunately, the R52 I picked up was dead (or at least black screen), so back to the drawing board.

However, I'm stubborn and will wait patiently until I find what I want at a price I'm willing to pay (which is to say..... low).

So the quest continues for an Intel GPU's R52 MB, and a 15" SXGA+ screen.

schmaud · #38 Post by **schmaud** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:25 am

first off all: this is one cool thread

Can anyone comment, if the battery life improves with the onter GPU?

cheers

r.

aaa · #39 Post by **aaa** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:35 am

schmaud wrote:Can anyone comment, if the battery life improves with the onter GPU?

Yes, only a little though (less than 10%).

#40 Post by **underclocker** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:23 am

One important update (I updated the original post with this info, too) - R51 motherboards only support ONE PC Card slot (T4x's support two)!

NOTE: R51 motherboards have one single slot PC Cardbus Controller. Therefore, with this swap you will loose the ability to use two Type I or two Type II PC Cards at one time. You will be able to use one Type I, one Type II, or one Type III PC Card. (Thanks to sojourner for identifying and researching this limitation.)

The controller chip on the R51 motherboard is a TI PCI1510. The controller chip on the T40/T41/T42 motherboard is a TI PCI1520.

The R51 motherboard will physically accept the dual slot cage from the T4x, but only the top slot will work. I'd suggest sticking with the R51 cage, since the lower slot is active, which would permit the continued use of Type III PC Cards (the double height ones) that connect from the bottom.

Since T43's and R52's had one PC Card slot (for one Type 1 or one Type II PC Card, Type III PC Cards not supported) plus one ExpressCard slot, there really isn't any way to get an Intel GPU motherboard with two PC Card slots in a T4x chassis.

Sorry to have to report this, but hopefully the need for two PC Card slots isn't that common. (Obviously, Lenovo didn't think so since they dropped down to one slot on machines after the T42, with the addition of an ExpressCard slot on some models.)

(It also appears that R50's and R51's with ATI video only support on PC Card slot, so all the posts about the motherboards being the same or interchangeable, often do not mention this limitation. Even the R50p only supports one PC Card.)

awake724 · #41 Post by **awake724** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:54 pm

Thanks for the help.

My T42 is a M735 1.7mhz - would the swap with a R51 retain this speed and processor?

Domdogg123 · #42 Post by **Domdogg123** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:20 pm

I just swapped an R51 mobo into my T40 case and I can report it's working flawlessly.

#43 Post by **underclocker** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:44 am

awake724 wrote:Thanks for the help.

My T42 is a M735 1.7mhz - would the swap with a R51 retain this speed and processor?

Absolutely.

virge · #44 Post by **virge** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:20 pm

I've read somewhere that T4X and R5X machines with the Intel GPU don't support DVI output via a docking station. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

#45 Post by **underclocker** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:26 pm

virge wrote:I've read somewhere that T4X and R5X machines with the Intel GPU don't support DVI output via a docking station. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

I believe this is correct, the Intel GPU based R51's do not support the DVI output connector on the Mini-Dock or Port Replicator II.

If you are using a DVI display via either dock listed above with an ATI GPU T4x, then you would loose this feature if you swapped in an Intel GPU motherboard.

However, with the more expensive Dock II, you can install a PCI DVI adapter and use a DVI connector LCD display.

I will note this in the first post. Thank you.

mdurisseau · #46 Post by **mdurisseau** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:21 pm

What about the software? I am considering this, but don't want to have to reinstall XP or something...

sparta.rising · #47 Post by **sparta.rising** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:57 pm

I'd say that replacing a motherboard is a lot more involved and complicated procedure than reinstalling Windows...

mdurisseau · #48 Post by **mdurisseau** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:04 pm

sparta.rising wrote:I'd say that replacing a motherboard is a lot more involved and complicated procedure than reinstalling Windows...

What I was trying to say was that I would rather not if I didn't have to! The motherboard part is the easy part, as far as I am concerned!

#49 Post by **underclocker** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:47 pm

mdurisseau wrote:What about the software? I am considering this, but don't want to have to reinstall XP or something...

No XP reinstall necessary. The IDE controlers are the same, so it boots without an issue. A couple of drivers are automatically recognized and installed. The only thing missing is the video driver, it defaults to a Windows driver, so you have to install the Intel driver from Lenovo.com.

Or just run the Lenovo System Update utility, it upgrades all needed drivers. (If you are swapping out a T40 board for an R51 board, for instance, the Active Protection System software/driver would also install, since the R51 has APS and the T40 does not.)

#50 Post by **underclocker** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:07 pm

All is still great with the custom TR451.

I came across a Bluetooth II BMDC from a T41 and I tested it out. NO GO.

Intel GPU based R51's were offered with Bluetooth III only.

Therefore, only the Bluetooth III (BMDC200 rev. B) module is supported with R51 Intel GPU motherboards. With the incorrect BMDC, the 1803 Unauthorized Daughter Card error prevents booting. Any modem CDC daughter card works fine.

Note: R52 Intel GPU motherboards support the Bluetooth IV (BMDC300) module.

#51 Post by **schen** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:28 am

underclocker wrote:Note: R52 Intel GPU motherboards do support Bluetooth.

Ed,

Would you happen to know which BT cards?

#52 Post by **underclocker** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:54 am

Yes. The R52 and T43 used the same combo BT/modem adapter. The correct adapter is called the Bluetooth IV or BMDC-3 or BMDC300 adapter. There are also a few different IBM part numbers.

Link here --> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/IBM_Integ ... m_(BMDC-3)

madkat · #53 Post by **madkat** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:20 am

i can now report another Frankenpad up and running

i transplanted a R51 intel mobo in a T41 - it works great - the fit was perfect (except for the firewire connection), kept the original T4x PCMCIA cage

i can though make some comments - i have bluetooth working - from the "donor" R51, and also the wireless from the R51
withe the BT card from the T41 it indeed gives the 1803 error

and another issue - the R51 processor is a 1.6Ghz while the T41 was a 1.4 - and the fan doesnt seem to be powerful enough... it stays in idle around 50 degrees... and to anticipate your question - yes, i've alpplied Arctic Silver 5 ... before AS it was awful - it was shutting down whenever i was running something "demanding"

possible cause might be the difference in size of the 2 fans - the R51 has a much bigger one...

later edit:
any ideas where to place the firewire connector? i'd really like to use this feature... between the pcmcia and the heatsink it's definately not possible - it's not a good idea to chop the heatsink - any other location suggestion? maybe get rid of the irda port?

later later edit:
it has surprised me - how different are the T4x from the R5x... like they are made by different manufacurer... the clunkiness of the R compared with the "finesse" of the T's ... the amount of cheap plastic, rubber and empty unused space of the R's compared to the tightness and neatness of construction of the T's ...
sorry to say this - for the R owners... but its the first time i've worked under the hood of a R, and the differences amazed me...

#54 Post by **underclocker** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:12 am

Congrats on the transplant!

Please list the part number of the original R51 and the Bluetooth BMDC for future reference.

Since the ATI GPU motherboards are effectively interchangeable between the T4x and R5x machines, I do not think there is any issue with using the T4x vs. R5x fan - the R5x fan is physically larger, but may not be any "stronger".

Regarding the temps., assuming your fan is fine (and it sounds like it is), I have two comments;

1) I've had Mobile Meter running since I did my swap almost 3 months ago. I use the machine almost every day. While on battery, I have a custom power profile that sets the CPU to adaptive and the LCD to level four. While surfing the web, the machine usually idles along around 40 degrees. When doing software updates, especially the Lenovo System Update, the temp may climb to over 50, but the fan rarely turns on. In fact, the fan rarely turns on ever.

I think this is not due to any problem, but because there are several temperature sensors on the T4x and R5x mobos. Mobile Meter is only monitoring the CPU and HD temps. The BIOS is checking about 8 or 9 sensors. So, if the fan isn't needed, it doesn't turn on. I think the ATI GPU mobos activated the fan more often because they ran hotter, in turn that would reduce the CPU temp. Bottom line, it's probably OK if the CPU temp reads higher after the swap because the overall temperature inside the case is lower - the fan isn't needed.

At first I used the original Atheros a/b/g adatper. I noticed that the fan went on somewhat more often and I could feel the heat below the case. I swapped the adapter with an Intel b/g and the heat went away, the temps. dropped and the fan almost never goes on now. There must be a thermal sensor near the wifi adapter (which makes sense).

Finally, the machine has to be buttoned up to get accurate results. The first time I checked temps the palmrest wasn't installed and the optical drive was removed. The CPU temp rose to over 60 degrees before the fan turned on - more evidence that the BIOS is checking multiple thermal sensors before turning on the fan and that a CPU temp over 40 degrees isn't an issue.

One more note, I didn't notice any temp difference between the 1.6 Banias and 1.7 Dothan CPUs.

Hope this makes sense and helps. (I really can't stress how pleased I am with this configuration. My TR451 is perfect.)

madkat · #55 Post by **madkat** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:29 am

thanks!
i'll post the numbers - as soon as i get home
regarding the temperatures - during the w/e i did some testing - with the wireless turned on, plugged in (set with NHC at max processor speed) it idles at around 50 and max 60 under load, fan running moderately often. On battery (set to adaptive) it idles around 45, under load max 60.
with the wireless turned off - idle temps are the same as above, but the load temps are 5-7 degrees lower - and the fan rarely turns on - so your hypothesis with the wireless heating things up is true
other than that its working absolutely great - incerdibly silent and fast
two more questions - the donor R51 came with a Fujitsu-Siemens HDD - 40gb at 5400, with one partition and Xp - it's a VERY silent HDD
the original T41 had a Hitachi 40gb 5400 hdd, also unpartitioned, but a little louder unit...
the question is - what should i do - choose from the following 4: keep the Fujitsu as it is, format and partition it and reinstall everything, keep the Hitachi as it is, format and partition it and reinstall win?

overall i'm extremely pleased with the machine i've "built" - i think it's good enough to convince me to sell the T30

sjthinkpader · #56 Post by **sjthinkpader** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:51 pm

By my experience, Fujitsu drives are more reliable than other drives.

As for temperature, set the CPU power profile to Adaptive.

#57 Post by **underclocker** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:57 pm

sjthinkpader wrote:As for temperature, set the CPU power profile to Adaptive.

This is a good idea and the setting that I use whether plugged in or on battery power.

Regarding the drive, I think Hitachi has the brand name and marketing edge since they are market leaders and are seen as innovators, but over time, I've found most laptop drives to be equally reliable; Hitachi, Fujitsu, Toshiba, Seagate included. (I don't have much experience with Western Digital or Samsung to form a long-term opinion yet.)

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I did a little research and found that one of the quietest 5400 rpm drives is the Samsung Spinpoint MP0402H. I swapped out a Hitachi TravelStar for the Samsung. It is quiet.

I vote for quiet.

madkat · #58 Post by **madkat** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:52 pm

Thank you for the suggestions
i'm typing from the TR451 now

used the Fujitsu drive - for the reasons above and the thing that is less energy-hungry... the hitachi is rated with 1.0Amps, and the fujitsu only 0.6A...

upgraded the RAM to 1.5G (swapped one 512 module with the 1.0G from the T30)... and it's absolutely "flying"

details about the two machines:
T41 - 2373-2FG
R51 - 2887-K2G
i cannot tell you yet the details you've asked about the bluetooth card - because i'm running the machine now...

about the profiles - as i'm typing now, and surfing the web, while transferring files from my T30's hard drive - the temperature is 43degrees, and the fan comes on and off - think its ok

other than that - great topic - inspired me in making this transplant - and making myself a great machine

edit: and still no idea how to make some use of the firewire port...

madkat · #59 Post by **madkat** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:09 am

the temperature issue is solved... the rumours about the AS5 taking some 3-4 days to reach maximum heat transfer properties are true
now its idling between 38-41 - and now when i'm surfing the web, writing on the forum etc - it stays on 43-44 (with a bittorent running too)
under load - scanning, photoshop etc - it doesnt run over 54 degrees
and overall with the 1.6 processor, 1.5Gig of Ram and the fujitsu drive - it is oh so fast and silent!

madkat · #60 Post by **madkat** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:38 pm

update:
played with undervolting this weekend
results (for 1.6 Dothan) - first figure is the multiplier - second figure is "Volts":
6 .732
8 .796
10 .844
12 .892
14 .956
16 .1148
it runs in normal load (like now - surfing the net, archiving some files etc) - at 33-35 degrees - and under full load barely reaches 50...
and the fan hardly starts at all - it is incredibly quiet machine now
battery life increased from 2hrs 15mins to over 2hrs 30mins
(profile is adaptive - fan is the "normal" T41 short, AS5 applied responsibly)

later edit: some notes about the swap:
- the BT CDC is the BMDC III (from the original R51)
- i kept the PCMCIA cage for the "looks" of two levers - at first - now, because i use all the time a "hide-away" USB card, which heats up a little, i'm happy it's located in the top slot, thus not influencing the mobo beneath (and in its turn, not being influenced by the heat from the mobo)
- there are BIG differences between T4x and R5x - as far as the BIOS is concerned - the T4x has twice the setting options... at first that annoyed me (especially the power management features) but after some time - they dont bother me - it wors equally fine without them... but i thought i emphasize this - for others to know

T4x GPU Problem - Alternate Fix - R51 Mobo w/Intel GPU!

battery life?

Re: battery life?

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