T23 Pictures (Like New from eBay)

[Thinker]

Hi,

Sorry for the double posting
It won't happen again.

First of all thanks to Bill and everyone in the group that has given me their support. That means a lot to me.
I have uploaded some pictures to my personal website so that you can see the condition of this laptop for yourselves. Feel free to let me know what you think.

First, some pictures of the OUTER CASING. Is this what a like new T23 is supposed to look like?

http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/OuterCasing1.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/OuterCasing2.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/OuterCasing3.JPG


Let's now open the laptop and check out the SCREEN (off), and the KEYBOARD):

http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/ScreenOff.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/ScreenOffDetail.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/DirtyKeyboard.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/ShineyKey.JPG (A little blurry)


If you feel like playing detective, what is this substance supposed to be?

http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/UnknownSubstance.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/MoreUnknownSubstance.JPG


I forgot that a like new Thinkpad should always have a STUCK LATCH:

http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/StuckLatch.JPG


The INTEL STICKER on a Like New T23 should be in this condition:

http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/LikeNew.JPG


Ok, just for kicks let's turn the computer on and see the SCREEN ON. Notice the nice bright spots (background diffusor foil damage, anyone?)
Not bad for a screen described to me as "perfect, with no faults":

http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/BrightSpots.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/MoreBrightSpots.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/BrightSpotDetail.JPG


Let's take a look at the PORTS, which should be clean. By the way, could anybody familiar with a T23 in new condition (really in new condition) tell me if that is a missing part in the first picture?

http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/ProbableMissingPiece.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/BackView.JPG

These next 2 pictures need to be retaken (they are blurry)
http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/DirtyPort.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/MoreDirtyPort.JPG


Finally, let's look at the BOTTOM. Ironically, it is the best part of this ThinkPad. But still not new. There are two scratches, one of which can be seen on the bottom right of this picture:

http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/Bottom.jpg


Let me know if you require more detailed pictures. I will fixed the blurred ones and upload them later.

Ruben
_________________
I will own a Thinkpad T series soon!!!!!

Ruben

[cj3209]

What is your point in posting these pics? Obviously you were misled. Can you tell us who this eBay seller is so everyone can avoid him/her in the future?

[lvlolvlo]

if you don't mind me asking how much did you pay for this unit?

[dr72]

how much did you pay? for a unit as old at the T23 I wouldn't say it is in too bad of shape - certainly not "new" but then...

[fb3]

Thinker--

I completely sympathize with you. Anyone who called this "like new" intended to mislead you. That said, however, the dirt seems less pronounced than I'd imagined from reading the other thread, and it also seems sort of superficial, like a once-over with some canned air and a soft rag might do wonders for its appearance.

still, if memory serves you paid top dollar for this ($700 or so?) and at that price I would have thought the seller would have done the cleaning.

I also bought a T23 recently and am awaiting its arrival. It, too, said "like new" in the eBay description. I paid less ($560) but it may be a lesser configuration. If it comes in looking like this I'll make an effort to clean it up so that I can see what I've got.

A lot of that little white specky stuff on the screen etc is dust, right? Caught in the flash of your camera? I hesitate to say what the "foreign substance" on the screen bezel might be.

Still, you are well within your rights to ask for a refund or replacement. ANd thanks for the pictures.

[Thinker]

What is your point in posting these pics? Obviously you were misled. Can you tell us who this eBay seller is so everyone can avoid him/her in the future?

My point in posting this pictures is that several people in the forum asked me to do so, so being the nice guy that I am I went and did.

I needed to take the pictures to document the state of the laptop anyway, so posting them wasn't too much of a deal.

Regarding the identity of the seller I can't disclose that at the moment, since I am still trying to get my money back. For what it's worth, this person doesn't deal with ThinkPads and this was his personal computer. Furthermore he says that he won't repost it in eBay, so everyone around here should be safe from bidding in his auctions.

[Thinker]

if you don't mind me asking how much did you pay for this unit?

Hi,

I paid $679.00. It is a mere 1 Ghz CPU model (albeit with 512 Mb RAM). However, I was assured it was in pristine like new condition, and that's what I was bidding for. As a matter of fact, I paid $679.00 for a like new, with no wear or defects T23. I never got that, and instead I got what you saw in the pictures. My Tecra 8100 is 4 years old and looks way better than this. (And, if I sold my Toshiba in eBay, rest assured I would never use the words "virtually perfect" or "like new").

Ruben

[Thinker]

how much did you pay? for a unit as old at the T23 I wouldn't say it is in too bad of shape - certainly not "new" but then...

dr72,

That's the whole point. If I had found that T23 in a garbage can I would be a happy guy. However I paid $679.00 because it was supposed to be "like new". If you bought a computer described as "like new" and got what you have seen, wouldn't you be a little [censored] off too?
My old laptop (4 years) looks way better than this piece of crap.
Of course, I guess I could turn around and sell it in eBay with the same description that I was given. However I am not cut to prey on poor souls that way, specially after feeling the pain myself.

Ruben

[Thinker]

Thinker--

I completely sympathize with you. Anyone who called this "like new" intended to mislead you. That said, however, the dirt seems less pronounced than I'd imagined from reading the other thread, and it also seems sort of superficial, like a once-over with some canned air and a soft rag might do wonders for its appearance.

still, if memory serves you paid top dollar for this ($700 or so?) and at that price I would have thought the seller would have done the cleaning.

I also bought a T23 recently and am awaiting its arrival. It, too, said "like new" in the eBay description. I paid less ($560) but it may be a lesser configuration. If it comes in looking like this I'll make an effort to clean it up so that I can see what I've got.

A lot of that little white specky stuff on the screen etc is dust, right? Caught in the flash of your camera? I hesitate to say what the "foreign substance" on the screen bezel might be.

Still, you are well within your rights to ask for a refund or replacement. ANd thanks for the pictures.

Hi fb3,

Thanks for emphathizing. It does really suck to be misled (defrauded) like this. I hope you have much better luck with your T23.

I understand what you mean about thinking that there was more dirt from my previous description. I guess it's relative. However, I bought this as a "virtually perfect", "like new" laptop. The amount of dirt is inexcusable.

Another thing is that the dirt is just the beginning of the problems with this "perfect" laptop. The left latch is broken, there is a lot of wear in the outer casing (not like new by far), the screen has defects (bright spots), etc.

I don't know if this is just dirt. When I confronted the seller about the dirt he mentioned that he "tried to clean" everything before shipping. "Tried to clean"? Does that mean that it can't be done, or that he didn't try hard enough, or what? I made up my mind that I wouldn't try to clean anything in this laptop since the very moment I took a look at it. The last thing I want is the seller to accuse me of "damaging the screen" while attempting to clean it, for example.

How about what appears to be a missing piece on the back of the unit? You can see what appears to be the ribbon connector to the LCD screen. Is this normal in a T23? If it is I am a little dissapointed in the finish of the unit. If it is not, add that to the long list of misrepresentations that the seller incurred in while selling me this turd.

Thanks again, and sorry if I sound a little bitter.

Good luck with your T23!

Ruben

[beeblebrox]

Hello Thinker,

interesting thread of yours about cheaters on eBay, at least what I have read before I saw your photos. It sounded like you got a crappy machine.

However, how much time did you spend with typing your complaints and taking and uploading those photos?

Actually, why don't you just take a soft cloth and dish detergent and clean the Thinkpad with a few minutes?

I don't see anything wrong with the notebook, just some dust and dirt. But hey, Thinkpads are meant to be worked with and not put into the shopping window.
I checked with mine, and there is no part missing on yours. The stupid sticker was the first thing I peeled off after unpacking my new Thinkpad. Cleaning the keyboard is mandatory once a month anyway and shiny keyboards appear within a few months of usage (even on brandnew T42s!!).

So, what is the point? I think you overpaid. For $700 I could get a used T40...

Just think, the T23 is about 3-4 years old. You are expecting a brandnew machine?

Just my thoughts...

[fb3]

Let's take a look at the PORTS, which should be clean. By the way, could anybody familiar with a T23 in new condition (really in new condition) tell me if that is a missing part in the first picture?

http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/ProbableMissingPiece.JPG

Actually, there may be a piece missing if that's the hinge just above the port.

I got my T23 today and it was in very good shape. Not new, at all, but clean and operational.

I didn't want to suggest that you clean this one up and see what it looks like then, and I agree you paid a premium price, so if you can get your money back, maybe that's the best idea. But, if you get stuck with it, don't despair, all this THinkpads seem to clean up pretty well. I use rubbing alcohol, but I think this is a WRONG THING and you shouldn't. Maybe others have good suggestions (I could use them, too) for cleaning up a dirty Thinkpad.

Anyway, good luck!

[KillaByte]

I use rubbing alcohol, but I think this is a WRONG THING and you shouldn't. Maybe others have good suggestions (I could use them, too) for cleaning up a dirty Thinkpad.

A 50/50 mixture of water and isopropanol might do the job. For nasty cases try pure isopropanol.

PS:
Whoops - I just noticed that rubbing alcohol actually *is* isopropanol

[JaneL]

>Maybe others have good suggestions (I could use them, too) for cleaning up a dirty Thinkpad.
>

Others have had good suggestions, and those suggestions are archived, oddly enough, in the FAQ at http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=1689

[Thinker]

Hello Thinker,

interesting thread of yours about cheaters on eBay, at least what I have read before I saw your photos. It sounded like you got a crappy machine.

However, how much time did you spend with typing your complaints and taking and uploading those photos?

Actually, why don't you just take a soft cloth and dish detergent and clean the Thinkpad with a few minutes?

I don't see anything wrong with the notebook, just some dust and dirt. But hey, Thinkpads are meant to be worked with and not put into the shopping window.
I checked with mine, and there is no part missing on yours. The stupid sticker was the first thing I peeled off after unpacking my new Thinkpad. Cleaning the keyboard is mandatory once a month anyway and shiny keyboards appear within a few months of usage (even on brandnew T42s!!).

So, what is the point? I think you overpaid. For $700 I could get a used T40...

Just think, the T23 is about 3-4 years old. You are expecting a brandnew machine?

Just my thoughts...

Hi beeblebrox,

Thanks for expressing your opinion. You make a couple of good points there. For example, you are right about the age of the T23 (this one happens to be 2 1/2 years old), and as such I shouldn't expect a brand new machine. The thing is that I wasn't expecting a brand new machine, but a LIKE NEW machine, with no wear or defects. After all, that's what I paid for. If that's what it looks like to you from looking at the pictures, contact me immediately since I have a bunch of like new stuff that I would like to sell to you at the corresponding price. (In case you can't tell, I'm being sarchastic).

The simple fact is that I bought a laptop that was supposed to be like new, with no visible wear or defects. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the seller blatantly misrepresented the condition of this computer. If you are OK with that, that's fine. But I am the one who paid for the laptop, so if anyone has the right to feel cheated and [censored] off it's me.

The Intel Sticker picture was just posted as a sort of anecdotal detail. The laptop has lots of wear, there is dirt everywhere (screen, keyboard, ports), the screen has a bunch of bright spots (when I was told it was perfect).

As for your comment that ThinkPads are meant to be worked on and not put in the shopping window...If you got a new ThinkPad from IBM and it arrived with tons of wear, really dirty, BUT FUNCTIONAL, would you be OK with that? What if you complained to IBM and they dismissed your concerns and told you that ThinkPads are meant to be worked on and not put in the shopping window? Wouldn't you feel cheated and [censored] off? Just use your common sense.

How much time did I take to complain and upload the photos? I don't know. A couple hours perhaps. What's your point? If somebody defrauded you, wouldn't you like to let other people know? I needed to take the pictures anyway to document the state of the laptop, and the uploading wasn't too much of a deal really.

Finally, I realize that some of my comments about the state of the machine might seem a little bit exaggerated (that's why you thought I got a crappy machine). The problem is I ACTUALLY got a crappy machine, because I was paying for a like new machine with no wear or defects.
You are probably looking at this from a different perspective than I am (most likely due to the fact that the seller has my money and not yours).

Finally, don't you really think that there is a missing part on the back edge of the screen cover, close to the hinge axis? I mean, I can see the ribbon cable leading to the LCD. I know that my X31 is not like that. Is that the case for the T23? Wow, I guess I am really disappointed in IBM's design of that laptop then.

Thanks again for your comments

[Thinker]

Let's take a look at the PORTS, which should be clean. By the way, could anybody familiar with a T23 in new condition (really in new condition) tell me if that is a missing part in the first picture?

http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/ProbableMissingPiece.JPG

Actually, there may be a piece missing if that's the hinge just above the port.

I got my T23 today and it was in very good shape. Not new, at all, but clean and operational.

I didn't want to suggest that you clean this one up and see what it looks like then, and I agree you paid a premium price, so if you can get your money back, maybe that's the best idea. But, if you get stuck with it, don't despair, all this THinkpads seem to clean up pretty well. I use rubbing alcohol, but I think this is a WRONG THING and you shouldn't. Maybe others have good suggestions (I could use them, too) for cleaning up a dirty Thinkpad.

Anyway, good luck!

Hi fb3,

First of all, congratulations for getting your T23 in very good shape and clean. That must feel pretty good

That really is the hinge above the ports, and it does really look like there should be a piece there, since I don't believe IBM would design a laptop with a hole like that (I can see what looks like the ribbon cable going to the LCD).

Great, time to contact the seller again and let him know about the new defect that I found.

Thanks for your very reasonable suggestions.

Ruben

[JHEM]

Thinker,

Thank you for sharing your tale of woe with the Forum members, I hope you can get this straightened out with the seller.

A used Thinkpad described as "like new" or "as new" should be just that, a used machine showing minor wear and tear to the case and keyboard but otherwise clean and fully functional. The one you received looks as though it has spent some time in a cement mixer and I applaud your stand to take the seller to task for his fraudulent behavior. I hope that he doesn't attempt to say that the machine was damaged by you in shipping and it's a good thing that you've documented everything in photos.

Keep eBay apprised of your further adventures in this transaction just in case things go awry!

Yes, there's a piece missing from the hinge area that protects the display cable. This is an indicator that someone has opened the display housing for some reason as the piece can't just "fall out".

Sharing the seller's eBay ID is something you can do after this matter is resolved, or if it falls apart. No need to stick your finger in the guy's eye until after you receive the money order, or if he should fail to send it.

Good luck,

James

[Thinker]

Thinker,

Thank you for sharing your tale of woe with the Forum members, I hope you can get this straightened out with the seller.

A used Thinkpad described as "like new" or "as new" should be just that, a used machine showing minor wear and tear to the case and keyboard but otherwise clean and fully functional. The one you received looks as though it has spent some time in a cement mixer and I applaud your stand to take the seller to task for his fraudulent behavior. I hope that he doesn't attempt to say that the machine was damaged by you in shipping and it's a good thing that you've documented everything in photos.

Keep eBay apprised of your further adventures in this transaction just in case things go awry!

Yes, there's a piece missing from the hinge area that protects the display cable. This is an indicator that someone has opened the display housing for some reason as the piece can't just "fall out".

Sharing the seller's eBay ID is something you can do after this matter is resolved, or if it falls apart. No need to stick your finger in the guy's eye until after you receive the money order, or if he should fail to send it.

Good luck,

James

Hi JHEM,

Thank you for taking the time to look at the pictures and comment on them, I really appreciate it.

Your opinions mean a lot (especially coming from a Senior Member, and someone who obviously has known ThinkPads for a long time). To be honest, I was starting to think that I had been unreasonable believing that the condition of this computer had been awefully misrepresented to me. I am the first to acknowledge that I have high standards (call me picky if you want), but after the extensive questions that I asked the seller and the corresponding responses, I just couldn't believe the state of the laptop when I received it.

Thanks for confirming that there's a piece missing as well. The fact that it means that the seller must have disassembled the screen just makes things even more disturbing.

The laptop is going out to the seller tomorrow, and I hope that after a few days I will receive the money order for $650.00 that the seller has promised to send. Bottom line, I am out of about $100.00 even so. Although a pricey lesson, it has been a valuable one, and I hope one from which some of ThinkPads.com members might learn as well.

I never (I mean never) will buy any computer in eBay again. I'm not saying that other people shouldn't either, but if you do always pay using a Credit Card (via PayPal or otherwise). This might save you a lot in the long run in Psychiatrist bills and ulcer medication, believe me.

Ironically, this wasn't my last computer bought in eBay (everybody, call me stupid at once, it's OK. I will just put on a Dunce hat and go to the corner for a while). I bought a T20 the same day that I bought this T23, and that one has been damaged by UPS throwing it over to my patio aparently. So tomorrow I am going to the Post Office to send back the T23, and to UPS to issue a claim. Two T2x hells in 2 weeks. Can anyone top that?

Thanks again for your comments. I hope I am not taking too much space in this great forum with my misfortune. I will let everyone know how things
work out.

Regards,

Ruben

[JaneL]

>Thanks for confirming that there's a piece missing as well. The fact that it means that the seller must have disassembled the screen just makes things even more disturbing.
>

Well, I disagree with James about this. I'm staring at the back of my T23 right now, and it looks the same to me. It just looks to me like yours has a ding in it.

[Thinker]

>Thanks for confirming that there's a piece missing as well. The fact that it means that the seller must have disassembled the screen just makes things even more disturbing.
>

Well, I disagree with James about this. I'm staring at the back of my T23 right now, and it looks the same to me. It just looks to me like yours has a ding in it.

nonny,

Thanks for taking a look. Try looking at this one, which offers perhaps a clearer view:
http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/BackView.JPG

It is hard to tell from the picture, but I am almost (99.9%) positive James is right. I have a T20 besides the T23, and there is clearly a black plastic piece that hooks up between two plastic notches, which in the case of the T23 is missing. I will try taking some better pictures later, since it is very hard to tell with the ones I have right now (but better perhaps with the link above than with the previous one). What you perceive as the piece with a ding in it is just the ribbon cable and some shadowing.

Take care,

Ruben

[fb3]

Thanks for taking a look. Try looking at this one, which offers perhaps a clearer view:
http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/BackView.JPG

Here's a picture of the back of my "like new" T23 for comparison.
http://www.publicscrutiny.net/DSC00373b.jpg

Cheers--

[msilano]

Thinker,

I have to admit - from your initial description, I believed that you had been sent a PPP-owerbook or something like it. However, the photos (IMHO) show that you have a "well-used" Thinkpad rather than a "Like-new" Thinkpad.

As other posters have stated, you could probably restore this Thinkpad to a better condition by using some canned air and some cleaner. I think your beef ought to be with the seller who described it as "Like-new" and if that seller were to offer you, say, $100 back, that would (again, IMHO) close the case on this.

The case you are seeing (ok, everything in this post is IMHO) is standard wear & tear on a 3+ year old machine. Nothing more, nothing less.

Good luck, I have bought and sold many machines on ebay and had good luck so far. I would not let this discourage you.

[Insert blatent plug here] By the way - in the next month, I may be selling a T30 for a little more than what you paid for the T23. Let me know if you are interested. I think I am missing a similar hinge on the back of mine - I'll be sure to note it if I am.[End blatent plug]

Good luck.

[JHEM]

Thanks for taking a look. Try looking at this one, which offers perhaps a clearer view:
http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/BackView.JPG

Here's a picture of the back of my "like new" T23 for comparison.
http://www.publicscrutiny.net/DSC00373b.jpg

Thanks for the picture fb3, you've saved me the trouble of posting one of my T23. Anyone (Nonny!) who cares to open the two photos can easily see the difference and note the missing display cable protector.

BTW, all of my T2X machines have this display cable protector piece, as does my T30.

[Thinker]

Thanks for taking a look. Try looking at this one, which offers perhaps a clearer view:
http://home.comcast.net/~nxcm/BackView.JPG

Here's a picture of the back of my "like new" T23 for comparison.
http://www.publicscrutiny.net/DSC00373b.jpg

Cheers--

Ah, thanks a lot. That clearly shows the piece I'm missing on mine.
By the way, your laptop looks real clean and in nice condition (at least what I can see of it). Congrats!

Ruben

[Thinker]

Thinker,

I have to admit - from your initial description, I believed that you had been sent a PPP-owerbook or something like it. However, the photos (IMHO) show that you have a "well-used" Thinkpad rather than a "Like-new" Thinkpad.

As other posters have stated, you could probably restore this Thinkpad to a better condition by using some canned air and some cleaner. I think your beef ought to be with the seller who described it as "Like-new" and if that seller were to offer you, say, $100 back, that would (again, IMHO) close the case on this.

The case you are seeing (ok, everything in this post is IMHO) is standard wear & tear on a 3+ year old machine. Nothing more, nothing less.

Good luck, I have bought and sold many machines on ebay and had good luck so far. I would not let this discourage you.

[Insert blatent plug here] By the way - in the next month, I may be selling a T30 for a little more than what you paid for the T23. Let me know if you are interested. I think I am missing a similar hinge on the back of mine - I'll be sure to note it if I am.[End blatent plug]

Good luck.

Hi msilano,

I don't know what standard wear and tear is in a 2 1/2 year old T23, but I suspect it's close to (but not quite as much as) the wear and damage (yes, damage) on my "like new" T23. However, like you mentioned, this was purported to be like new. I understand that from my description you might have concluded that the laptop was still in worse shape than it is. The fact is that my comments are placed in the context of what I know, and of what the seller told me. I asked ad nauseum about any defects, any wear, etc. I was told the laptop was perfect, like new, with no wear. I don't know, maybe I should post the email communication here so that you all see what I'm talking about.

I don't believe any like new machine should have missing pieces, busted screen latches, or damaged screens. (Believe me, the screen is damaged because there are a few annoying bright spots which are not stuck pixels or anything, but which seem to be damage to the back reflector in the screen assembly. This is unacceptable, as I need to work with graphics often (and even if I didn't, it would still be unacceptable for a screen that was supposed to be perfect).

For what it's worth, it is tough to see in the pictures the amount of dirt that this laptop has. Dirt anywhere is not right in a laptop. A laptop is something that should always be maintained (more or less) clean. Especially, the dirt in every port interface is unacceptable. I'm not going to plug to a dirty port equipment that then I need to use on ACTUALLY like new equipment.

I know I am not being too impartial with eBay right now. I knew the rules of the game, and I took my chances. If anything else, eBay should at least make it mandatory to offer pictures of the actual item being sold (for some items anyway).

About the T30...Thanks a lot, but I am never buying computers on eBay again. I mean that. I am sure your T30 will be a good buy though for whoever has the good luck of bidding in your auction.

Regards,

Ruben