T40, T41, T42 or T43? Which to buy?

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jamnkats · #1 Post by **jamnkats** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:22 am

I currently have 2 T30's that I personally use (one is a backup and awaiting a visit to the US for parts) and a T40 my son uses. His T40 (in my signature) has either a backlight or inverter problem and works just fine with an external monitor. But when we're back in the US we'll get that fixed (researching how hard it will be to replace the LCD now).

I would like to replace the Toshiba my other son uses with a T4x and purchase another T4x for my daughters to share (and as a backup-backup for me). We live in Mexico and it is incredibly expensive to get parts imported in. So I was thinking to stay with the T4x line as we'd hopefully be able to swap parts around. All 4 of the kids will be playing graphic intensive (Runescape) games and educational software and my T30 gets too hot running those games but the current T40 is just fine. So I'm thinking the T4x line should be a decent choice for them.

The problem is which T4x to get. I know the T43's are very different from the T40-2. So I know not to get those, but is there a huge difference between the T40-2? Should I look only for Dothan with 64+M video RAM or will 32 (what the current T40 has) be just fine? I'm aware of the GPU issues and we'll just have to cross that bridge if and when we get to it. Otherwise, will it make a big difference in which T4x I get?

Thanks so much in advance!

#2 Post by **Johan** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:32 am

I suggest you see some recent discussions on the very same subject - such as Another "Which Thinkpad should I get" thread and Thinkpad for my parents! and What ThinkPad should I get?. Many more of these discusions are found in the GENERAL ThinkPad News/Comments & Questions sub-forum.

Me, myself... I am very attracted by T42/p's, so I know what I would get!

Johan

madkat · #3 Post by **madkat** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:02 am

honestly?
a T43 with Intel Graphics... you won't have to deal with ATi graphics problems... (which you said you are aware of)
and the performance of a T43 /w intel is the same if not better than of a T40/41 with ati...

Tantalus · #4 Post by **Tantalus** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:13 am

Well a T43 would be the best to get. All the nice features of the previous generations along with better performance. If you get the T43P with ATI then your likely not to have issues with the graphics and its a big step up from the ATI Mobility 9000 in the T40. I play San Andreas on high with 1x antialiasing on the t43 with ATI Mobility x300 (64mb) just fine. Plus theres also the concept of longer battery life, faster cpu etc etc.[/b]

ajkula66 · #5 Post by **ajkula66** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:41 pm

Another vote for T43. Quite a few of them will have warranty remaining as well, a big plus in my book...

If you don't do anything graphic-intensive and can live with XGA resolution, Intel-powered machines (models starting with 187x) are the way to go.

Should all of the above prove too much to bear, ATi-powered T43 is the way to go. Noisy and hot they may get, but that's what the ThinkPad Fan Control is for...

#6 Post by **underclocker** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:56 pm

The T43 and other T4x's are not that different. Other than the louder fan and faster performance, you'll think you're holding a T40.

The Intel-GPU T43 is a fine choice.

Other great choices in the $400 or less category (all the Intel GPU's models);

-Z60t (thin, light, 14.1" widescreen)
-Z60m (thick, heavy, 15.4" widescreen)
-R60 (thick, not too heavy, 14 or 15" 4:3 LCD)
-T60 (the thin, light standard in 14" 4:3 LCD, also available in heavy 15.4" widescreen)

Yes, some T60's sell right around $400.

sjthinkpader · #7 Post by **sjthinkpader** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:05 pm

The R52 is a very similar machine to T43s. There are many intel GPU versions available. I just picked up a R52 with a small warranty (one month left) for $100 s/h included.

#8 Post by **underclocker** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:05 pm

Yes, I've owned several, but forgot about the R52. As good as a T43, but a little thicker. Of course an Intel-GPU based R51 would work, too. Either model is available with 14" or 15" 4:3 LCD's.

jamnkats · #9 Post by **jamnkats** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:07 am

Cheaper is definitely better and since we live in Mexico and these will be for my boys (14 and 12), I need something very reliable. Now that more numbers

are coming at me, does that help narrow the field?

I really appreciate all the comments so far!

#10 Post by **underclocker** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:20 am

Since it's for the boys, I'm thinking they won't be taking them out of the house much. If that's the case, 15" or 15.4" LCD's would be nice for on-line learning and game sites.

My boys are too young to express a preference, but my brother's boys do like the 15.4" widescreen that they share.

I'd definitely recommend a Z60m (or if you can stretch, a Core Duo Z61m). In addition to having a 15.4" widescreen, they have an SD memory slot and slightly better speakers than others. Some of the Intel-GPU models even had the cool titanium covers (good looking, but they scratch easily and weigh more!)

There aren't all that many Z60/1m models available, so it takes a while to find them in the low price range, but Z60m's should start around $300 and Z61m's around $400. If you pick up a Celeron model, it can easily be upgraded for very little ($25) to a Pentium M (Z60m) or a Core Solo or Duo (Z61m).

For the lowest cost option, a 15" R51 or R52 would work.

DrThinkpad · #11 Post by **DrThinkpad** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:24 am

madkat wrote:honestly?
a T43 with Intel Graphics... you won't have to deal with ATi graphics problems... (which you said you are aware of)
and the performance of a T43 /w intel is the same if not better than of a T40/41 with ati...

I beg to differ, any T4X laptop with a discrete GPU performs better than a T43 with Intel graphics (from personal experience)

For your choice, I wouldn't be be bothered too much for the GPU problem if the machine was bought from a forum member and if you continue to handle it with two hands, there shouldn't be any problems. As for the model, the T40 are less expensive because of the 400mhz FSB and PC2100 memory, but for the majority of tasks there shouldn't be a difference. T41/T42 have a 533mhz FSB and take PC2700 memory but are a tad more expensive. With the T43, you get DDR2 memory which is a plus and some of these have warranty left. They will cost more than the 3 other models.

As for the T4Xp, these have FireGL graphics (discrete) and are not known for GPU problems.They all carry the very nice SXGA resolution. The T40p has a 64mb GPU while all the others have 128mb. T40p has a slower bus speed too. T41p/T42p have the faster FSB and the 128mb GPUs and they do cost more than a T40p. T42p seems to be the all-time thinkpads.com favorite

The T43p has DDR2 and some have warranty left, but their high price puts them in the T6X ball park and that can hurt...

I'd recommend getting a T40p/T41p as the T42p seems to cost more for not much.

dr_st · #12 Post by **dr_st** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 1:11 pm

DrThinkpad wrote:I beg to differ, any T4X laptop with a discrete GPU performs better than a T43 with Intel graphics (from personal experience)

That would depend on whether the discrete GPU is Radeon 9600 / FireGL T2 or Radeon 7500 / FireGL 7800. The latter are rather old and weak, and I fancy the GMA 900, coupled with the faster CPU on the T43, would beat them by quite a margin.

#13 Post by **underclocker** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 1:39 pm

DrThinkpad wrote:...As for the model, the T40 are less expensive because of the 400mhz FSB and PC2100 memory, but for the majority of tasks there shouldn't be a difference. T41/T42 have a 533mhz FSB and take PC2700 memory but are a tad more expensive. With the T43, you get DDR2 memory which is a plus and some of these have warranty left. They will cost more than the 3 other models...

Just to clarify, T40/T41/T42's all have the 400MHz bus. The 533Mhz bus was introduced with the T43 and is used in the R52 and Z60t/m's as well.

In my experience, for general computing (web browsing, MS Office, etc.), all the 533MHz bus machines with the newer, integrated Intel GPU's feel much more responsive than even the T40p and T41p models. The T42p models came with even faster CPU's and I haven't owned those, so I can not report on their "feel". But I can assure you they run hot!

ajkula66 · #14 Post by **ajkula66** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 1:57 pm

DrThinkPad wrote:

As for the T4Xp, these have FireGL graphics (discrete) and are not known for GPU problems.

I'm sad to say that this is not true. T41p and T42p are almost as prone to GPU failures as their more standard siblings. Only T43p fares better here, but not because of its GPU, but because of a different soldering technique applied.

Intel-based T43, with a proper 5400rpm HDD and maxed-out RAM will be above and beyond sufficient for anything short of serious gaming and video-intensive applications. In XP and most Linux distros these machines leave very little to be desired.

Unless one seriously needs a workstation-quality GPU (such as FireGl T2 or V3200), they are a waste of money and battery life.

My experiences only.

suba · #15 Post by **suba** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:35 pm

May I suggest that you also consider buying an Advanced Dock II as well?

Attach a printer and scanner, for example, and any user can simply dock to print or scan.

You can also attach an external monitor or, with an adaptor, a hard drive.

Another option would be to swap over the adaptor for an Ultrabay 2000 optical drive.

#16 Post by **underclocker** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:57 am

ajkula66 wrote:...Intel-based T43, with a proper 5400rpm HDD and maxed-out RAM will be above and beyond sufficient for anything short of serious gaming and video-intensive applications. In XP and most Linux distros these machines leave very little to be desired.

Well stated, precisely my experience as well.

jamnkats · #17 Post by **jamnkats** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:10 am

Doesn't anyone worry about the heat on the T43? That is the only thing that has me concerned about those. I guess mostly, because I can't let the kids use my T30 due to heat issues. I'm leaning towards the flexview T42's in the Marketplace but would like to spend less. I'm going to look at the other numbers offered, but I'm really prejudiced against anything other than a thinkpad. They have been amazing workhorses - we live in an RV and they have held up to the strain of that and the kids.

jamnkats · #18 Post by **jamnkats** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:13 am

suba wrote:May I suggest that you also consider buying an Advanced Dock II as well?

Attach a printer and scanner, for example, and any user can simply dock to print or scan.

You can also attach an external monitor or, with an adaptor, a hard drive.

Another option would be to swap over the adaptor for an Ultrabay 2000 optical drive.

We live in an RV so space is at a premium. One boy uses his laptop at the RV dinette (where I sit) and the other uses the area that WAS used by the TV (we took the TV out). No-one has a real need to print - when I need something printed I just go to an Internet café and print from a USB thingie. One boy has an external monitor (which he hates because he is TIED to that area). I might get a dock for myself, but I can justify that as it is for work and my AC adapter is funky.

Why are you suggesting a dock? To avoid the flexing of the motherboard?

jamnkats · #19 Post by **jamnkats** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:23 am

underclocker wrote:Since it's for the boys, I'm thinking they won't be taking them out of the house much. If that's the case, 15" or 15.4" LCD's would be nice for on-line learning and game sites.

My boys are too young to express a preference, but my brother's boys do like the 15.4" widescreen that they share.

I'd definitely recommend a Z60m (or if you can stretch, a Core Duo Z61m). In addition to having a 15.4" widescreen, they have an SD memory slot and slightly better speakers than others. Some of the Intel-GPU models even had the cool titanium covers (good looking, but they scratch easily and weigh more!)

There aren't all that many Z60/1m models available, so it takes a while to find them in the low price range, but Z60m's should start around $300 and Z61m's around $400. If you pick up a Celeron model, it can easily be upgraded for very little ($25) to a Pentium M (Z60m) or a Core Solo or Duo (Z61m).

For the lowest cost option, a 15" R51 or R52 would work.

Ok, looking at Z60m's now along with R51's and R52's. Thanks! I've never owned anything but a T model...

sjthinkpader · #20 Post by **sjthinkpader** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:59 am

Yes, the 533Mhz Dothan are higher power than 400Mhz versions. Just set the CPU performance profile to Adaptive.

I have a 2.5Ghz P4-M in my A31 and it works ok in Adaptive mode and only gets to 60+ deg C when doing a big job.

R51 and R52s are great and I have quite a few of these along with T42 and T43s.

SteveS · #21 Post by **SteveS** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:34 pm

One point that has not been brought up on the T43 integrated Intel versus discrete ATI graphics choice is DVI support. While only available with a dock or port extender, it is not supported at all with the integrated Intel chips. Users weigh the importance of DVI differently. I put high value on it, ruling out consideration of the Intel GPU T43 models (18xx series).
BTW, I have bought, used and sold over a dozen T43 machines with ATI GPUs and have not had a single failure. About half of the T40,41, and 42 machines I have had experienced this plague. One T40 spent its entire operating life docked, and still the GPU to board connection failed – giving some anecdotal support to the theory other members have expressed that flexing as well as thermal cycle from powering on and off can cause the problem.

jamnkats · #22 Post by **jamnkats** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:36 pm

Squeeeeeee!

The boys are on either side of me, both on their new T42's! My 14yo moved his HDD (which I'd recently purchased from underclocker) from his T40 directly into the T42 and it seems to be working fine (except for the Atheros card).

After seeing these beautious machines I'm quite jealous.

GnatGoSplat · #23 Post by **GnatGoSplat** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:29 am

I have a T43 and I think it's awesome. No problems at all. I upgraded to an unsupported 80GB drive, but even that works great and only adds 2-seconds and an annoying beep to the boot process.
Another reason I like the T43 is it uses DDR2 so RAM upgrades are cheap. I missed the deal, but during Black Friday Fry's had 2x2GB DDR2 laptop RAM for $15 after rebate. That would have been pretty darn cheap to go to 4GB. Mine has the SXGA+ screen with ATI X300 graphics and it's definitely fast enough for less demanding 3D games. I also run Vista Ultimate on mine with Aero and it's plenty fast enough that I don't know what people who don't like Vista are complaining about.

I am switching to the Z61t, but the only reason is because I'd like something a little smaller and lighter.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't notice till too late the last post was an update that you already bought T42's. Glad you like them, but I still wholeheartedly recommend T43's for anyone in the market.

sjthinkpader · #24 Post by **sjthinkpader** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:12 am

GnatGoSplat wrote:.... I missed the deal, but during Black Friday Fry's had 2x2GB DDR2 laptop RAM for $15 after rebate. That would have been pretty darn cheap to go to 4GB. ...

I wish I did missed the deal. One of the two modules caused errors and I made the mistake of doing a SP3 update. It took me the whole day to realize what is happening and to fix it. It was the Corsair 4GB kit.

GnatGoSplat · #25 Post by **GnatGoSplat** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:25 am

sjthinkpader wrote:
GnatGoSplat wrote:.... I missed the deal, but during Black Friday Fry's had 2x2GB DDR2 laptop RAM for $15 after rebate. That would have been pretty darn cheap to go to 4GB. ...
I wish I did missed the deal. One of the two modules caused errors and I made the mistake of doing a SP3 update. It took me the whole day to realize what is happening and to fix it. It was the Corsair 4GB kit.

I'm sorry to hear about your frustration! They have a lifetime warranty though, don't they? Once you get good modules, it'll be a good deal.

There is a really nice memory checking program I use every time I get new RAM called MEMTEST86. I usually wait to add new RAM before I go to bed, then let MEMTEST86 run all night and all throughout the work day. It's saved me a lot of headaches, but it took some major headaches with bad PQI RAM before I learned to use this program every time I add RAM.

thinkxplx · #26 Post by **thinkxplx** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:37 pm

I was in the market for a thinkpad and found the reviews very helpful. I am debating between T42 or T43. T42 from what I understand have GPU problems while the T43 have noisy fan. How bad is the noise? I use an office supplied T42 and its excellent and I would be very happy owing one. But since I am buying it for personal use, I am trying to make sure that I can use it for at least 2-3 years without having to worry too much. Any suggestions will be appreciated.

sjthinkpader · #27 Post by **sjthinkpader** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:16 pm

T42s are great too and I am typing this post on a nice T42p. The advantage of T43/R52 is that they use DDR2 and much cheaper to upgrade RAM.

But the T4x series all use the soon to be extinct PATA HDDs. So be sure to upgrade the HDD upon purchase. I have a small stock in reserve now.

The fan noise is really in the fan capacity. It is needed for the 533Mhz FSB Dothans. So it is a given with the performance upgrade from 400Mhz FSB used in T40, T41, T42. T43 fan uses a 0.3A motor and others use 0.2A, 0.19A motors. An older T42 0.2A long fan can be used but it will bring down the CPU temperature slower.

vadarfone · #28 Post by **vadarfone** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:00 am

I have a T42 and a T43. I only just got the T43, so it is early days yet.

The T42 has been an excellent machine. It was a major step up from the old Sony Vaio crap I was using before.

The USBs broke on the T42 though, and I hear it is a common issue. Fixed with a PCMCIA USB hub though, so its all good.

My only gripe with my T43 so far is that the screen rez only goes to 1024x768. I would love to get something higher out of it.

The T42 I have goes much higher, despite being lower in the product range. Irony.

I am not sure yet, but I suspect there may be an issue with my T43 and a Hitachi Travelstar 7200RPM drive I want to use with it... I hope not, but I can feel it in my bones!

Both great machines though, and you will be good with either.

dr_st · #29 Post by **dr_st** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:46 am

vadarfone wrote:My only gripe with my T43 so far is that the screen rez only goes to 1024x768. I would love to get something higher out of it.

The T42 I have goes much higher, despite being lower in the product range. Irony.

Both T42 and T43 had units that went as high as 1024x768, or 1400x1050, or 1600x1200, depending on the model. Each product was offered in a wide range of configurations, and most certainly there were some very high-end T42 and very low-end T43 models (and priced accordingly). There is nothing ironic in that. You just need to look closely at what you buy.

Nameless · #30 Post by **Nameless** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:41 pm

vadarfone wrote:I am not sure yet, but I suspect there may be an issue with my T43 and a Hitachi Travelstar 7200RPM drive I want to use with it... I hope not, but I can feel it in my bones!

If you do, it'll probably be the dreaded "2010" error, but only if you bought an OEM drive (meaning from newegg, zzf, etc). If you bought it from IBM/Lenovo you have zero problems. There's a loooong thread here (sticky "non-thinkpad option drives on T43") but bottom line, T43/p's have a PATA->SATA bridge chip and it seems that only certain drives (make, model, & firmware rev) were qualified to be compatible with this bridge chip and the APS system. These qualified drives are in a bios whitelist, and an OEM drive will trigger this "2010" error which you can bypass, but it pauses and makes an annoying beep every bootup. It does this even though physically hardware-wise, the drives are identical to IBM ones.

The thread I mentioned above has directions for flashing the OEM drive with IBM firmware. People have had mixed results, I was actually successful at flashing my OEM HTS721010G9AT00 (a Hitachi 7K100 100GB 7200rpm PATA drive) , but YMMV, use at your own risk, I'm not responsible for anything, etc etc etc.

After I flashed it I ran PC-Doctor's full drive test suite with no errors, and the 2010 error went away. The only other thing I might want to do eventually is run Hitachi's DFT tool on it just to make triple-sure everything is 5x5 post-flash.

The only known/suspected side effect of the IBM firmware for these drives is that 48-bit LBA addressing may be disabled by it, but if the drive's smaller than 128 GiB it's a non-issue (which mine is). I'd much rather not have to listen to the annoying beep.

Hope this helps!