How does an older not-that-bright Flexview screen look?

[ssd_thinkpad]

I am wondering how an older T42 Flexview display would look. Background lightning is not as good as it was. Does it look like I dim my standard ips monitor? Goes background lightning back only on some parts on the screen or is it generally dimmer?

[Johan]

Hint: See Dark Patches on Corners of T42P 15" IPS Screen or T42p Screen Brightness or T42p Dust inside the Display - with pictures or (quite bad; not typical I'd say) T60p: Problem with Flexview display found via Google: "ccfl dark site:forum.thinkpads.com") or Search the Marketplace for "FlexView photo" and there you will find quite a few pictures of more-or-less aged FlexView LCD's and you'll find quite a few, such as this.

Johan

[ssd_thinkpad]

Hi Johan,

thanks for your very good insight views for the T42. As much as I read the dust problems are a special from UXGA displays where SXGA displays do not have this problems (as much). I am only buying the old Flexview computers because of its displays and therefore I am curious if it is up to date that they are really good today. I think, with the time they are not that good. The T60 displays therefore should be in better condition as they are mostly not so much used, right?

To compare these - old - Flexview computers with a new x301, which would you prefer?

[dr_st]

The SXGA+ Flexviews also have enough issues.

I've owned three of them so far, and everyone one of them had either 1) dust specs or 2) "backlight peering through" (code name: BPT) white spots, or any combination thereof. One of them even got a hair stuck in it.

From some reason, the right side of the screen, close to the bezel, is where 90% of these defects seem to happen.

Luckily, so far, Lenovo exchanges them freely for any such defects, and they still seem to be in supply. But it's pretty ridiculous.

6 months ago I bought a T60 with SXGA+ Flexview. Screen had BPT white spots all over the right side. Replaced.

2 months after that I turn on the computer and see that there is a freaking 1-inch long hair stuck inside the LCD. Replaced.

A week ago I purchased another T60 with SXGA+ Flexview. As soon as I got it home, noticed a BPT white spot. Will be replaced as soon as I get around to taking it to the lab.

The bonus - every time I replace such a screen, I get a brand new and bright one. Which is good, because they do lose a bit of brightness.

It's a shame I didn't take a picture of the two T60s side by side before I sold the old one. The 1.5 year-old screen looks visibly darker and yellower than the new, few months-old LCD.

[sjthinkpader]

I just measured the two 15 inch UXGA Flexview screens on my T42p and T43p, one is about 110 NIT and the other one 126 NIT. New one should be about 200 NIT. Even at these values, they looked bright enough. Equipment used for measurement is a Topcon luminance meter about one inch away from a blank WordPad page.

[Binh]

I just measured the two 15 inch UXGA Flexview screens on my T42p and T43p, one is about 110 NIT and the other one 126 NIT. New one should be about 200 NIT. Even at these values, they looked bright enough. Equipment used for measurement is a Topcon luminance meter about one inch away from a blank WordPad page.

Could you, please, measure luminance of black color on these displays ? I am curious about their constrast ratio.

[sjthinkpader]

Using the Topcon model BM-8, measuring two 15 inch UXGA on T42p/T43p.

Screen 1:
OS: Windows7
SW: Windows Paint
White: Block covering about 60% of screen in the center, ~152NIT
Black: Same block covering 60% of screen in the center, ~0.270NIT
Contrast ratio is about 563.

Screen 2:
OS: WindowsXP
SW; Windows Paint
White: ~158NIT
Black: ~0.330NIT
Contrast ratio is about 479.

The measurement in post above was done at night with lights off. Measurement in this post was done at day time with blinds closed. But it seems ambient light still affected the measurements. Related comparison of the two panels is still about same.

[Binh]

Using the Topcon model BM-8, measuring two 15 inch UXGA on T42p/T43p.

Screen 1:
OS: Windows7
SW: Windows Paint
White: Block covering about 60% of screen in the center, ~152NIT
Black: Same block covering 60% of screen in the center, ~0.270NIT
Contrast ratio is about 563.

Screen 2:
OS: WindowsXP
SW; Windows Paint
White: ~158NIT
Black: ~0.330NIT
Contrast ratio is about 479.

The measurement in post above was done at night with lights off. Measurement in this post was done at day time with blinds closed. But it seems ambient light still affected the measurements. Related comparison of the two panels is still about same.

Thank you very much. As it is expected, the IPS Flexview has a very good contrast (my bet it will be higher at the night time without ambient light).
My opinion is that the contrast plays much more important role for eyes than the brightness. My eyes are stressed after 1 hour working with T41 SXGA+ TN panel, but they feel very easy after 2-3 hours behind the FV IPS panel. Though I set the brightness on FV IPS a bit lower than that of TN.

[dr_st]

My opinion is that the contrast plays much more important role for eyes than the brightness.

Indeed you are right. Eyes want high contrast and not-too-high brightness. The recommended value for working with text under normal lighting conditions is ~100nit.

[sjthinkpader]

....
My opinion is that the contrast plays much more important role for eyes than the brightness. My eyes are stressed after 1 hour working with T41 SXGA+ TN panel, but they feel very easy after 2-3 hours behind the FV IPS panel. Though I set the brightness on FV IPS a bit lower than that of TN.

I measured my A31p in use and the result is as following:

White: 105NIT
Black: 0.180NIT
Contrast Ratio: 583

This A31p is driving a 21 inch Mitsubishi CRT next to it. The old CRT is not set at full brightness of course:

White: 42NIT
Black: 0.050NIT
Contrast Ratio: 840NIT

Yes, this A31p has 1600x1200 + 1600+1200 desktop. I have other A31p and will measure them later.

[archer6]

<snip> Using the Topcon model BM-8, measuring two 15 inch UXGA on T42p/T43p. <snip>

Thanks for the great posts and contributions to our forum. I have five ThinkPads with IPS/Flexview displays each of various ages, the most recent being a T60p. Not having the equipment to test them, I can only go by what I see. And in my opinion, even the ones that are dim from age, still show quite well as compared to regular TN. I've been quite lucky with mine, even though brightness is down, they are sill illuminating the screens evenly. To read your test results has been fascinating.

Cheers...

[Binh]

I measured my A31p in use and the result is as following:
White: 105NIT
Black: 0.180NIT
Contrast Ratio: 583

This A31p is driving a 21 inch Mitsubishi CRT next to it. The old CRT is not set at full brightness of course:
White: 42NIT
Black: 0.050NIT
Contrast Ratio: 840NIT

Thank you again for additional measurement. Very consistent result of contrast ratio, which means that the IPS production of ID Tech was very stable. Hope that my UXGA T42p has the same ~500 constrast ratio

At home I have a Dell 2001FP monitor with UXGA S-IPS panel produced by LG-Phillips. In comparison with T42p UXGA, the desktop monitor has much more vibrant color, but a bit lower contrast ratio and noticeable crystalline effect. The main disadvantage of this desktop monitor is that my eyes are stressed after 2-3 hours of work. So IMO, the ID Tech UXGA IPS panel is the best one for my eyes (I have never seen the Boe-Hydis UXGA IPS, so I can not say about it).

[sjthinkpader]

....
At home I have a Dell 2001FP monitor with UXGA S-IPS panel produced by LG-Phillips. In comparison with T42p UXGA, the desktop monitor has much more vibrant color, but a bit lower contrast ratio and noticeable crystalline effect. The main disadvantage of this desktop monitor is that my eyes are stressed after 2-3 hours of work. So IMO, the ID Tech UXGA IPS panel is the best one for my eyes (I have never seen the Boe-Hydis UXGA IPS, so I can not say about it).

I have an old 20 inch NEC DVI monitor from the late nineties that I've used for 8 years. I will hook it up and measure it.

I got a X41 Tablet coming with that Boe-Hydis LCD. It is not quite as good as the T60p 15 inch version but it will be interesting to see its performance.

Most of the 15 inch UXGA I measured can beat rated 400:1 contrast ratio. I wonder if the contrast ratio would be worst when they were new and very bright.

[ssd_thinkpad]

I am wondering how contrast on T4x UXGA IPS panels is as I am planing on buying one.

[archer6]

I am wondering how contrast on T4x UXGA IPS panels is as I am planing on buying one.

I have both a T42p and T43p and the contrast of the IPS UXGA display is excellent.

Cheers...

[sjthinkpader]

I posted T4x UXGA contrast ratio in post #7.

[ssd_thinkpad]

Oh I am sorry I was thinking about the SXGA+ panels as of course UXGA panels are already measured - even twice! This is really a great forum and the more I learn about thinkpads IPS panels its hard for me considering any other thinkpad to buy ...

[ssd_thinkpad]

Some more questions:

- Does contrast decreases within time like background light?
- Have T4 and T6 the same displays or have T6 displays have more contrast?
- Have SXGA+ and UXGA displays different contrast? I won't buy a Txp model and therefore only get a SXGA panel. Are these panels better or worse than uxga panels in regard of contrast?

Thanks a lot!

[ajkula66]

The only LCD that has stronger contrast is Boe Hydis UXGA used on T60p machines, sporting 500:1 as opposed to 400:1 on all the rest.

Dying backlight will diminish contrast less than it will affect colour palette.

Hope this helps.

[ssd_thinkpad]

Is this Boe Hydis panel configured in all T60 UXGA models?

[ajkula66]

Yes, in two versions, but they look and perform the same.

[Troels]

- Have T4 and T6 the same displays or have T6 displays have more contrast?
- Have SXGA+ and UXGA displays different contrast? I won't buy a Txp model and therefore only get a SXGA panel. Are these panels better or worse than uxga panels in regard of contrast?

As correctly stated by George, it is 400:1 vs. 500:1, however, i must say that while the latter has higher contrast it does not behave too well with regards to grayscale tracking and the impression of blackness is not as good. Some colors are also not tracked as well, for example the blue ebay auction setups have a purple tint to it. In other words, there are more parameters than contrast and brightness you should look at also, parameters which are not measured - so the best would be to see it in real life.
If you get a new'ish thinkpad, it will have the LG/Philips LP150E05, and if this panel is not a custom product other than the one listed here: http://www.lcdsolar.com/UpFiles/LcdKits ... 01.20).pdf the CR is typically 550:1 (with a relatively large toleration though). I have not read or heard of anyone complaining, except for those unfortunate persons who received some batches which had a grainy polarizer.

[archer6]

I have a 15" T60 with an IPS Boe Hydis SXGA+ as well as a 15" T60p with an IPS Boe Hydis UXGA display. Both of these look exactly the same except for the obvious difference in the resolutions. I would call these the finest laptop displays ever. Period. By a very wide margin.

My T43p has an 15" UXGA IPS made by ID Tech and while it's certainly better than a standard non-IPS display. It's simply not as crisp and clear as the Samsung on my 15" UXGA T42p or the Boe Hydis units which are hands down, simply stellar.
Cheers...

[Johan]

...It's simply not as crisp and clear as the Samsung on my 15" UXGA T42p ...

Eeeh - what? Did Samsung manufacture an UXGA 15" FlexView/IPS for T42p's?? I never heard of that before Didn't you mean IDTech (and not Samsung) on your T42p, too?

Johan

[archer6]

Eeeh - what? Did Samsung manufacture an UXGA 15" FlexView/IPS for T42p's?? I never heard of that before Didn't you mean IDTech (and not Samsung) on your T42p, too?

Oops, sorry for the typo. I got it confused with my other T42p... I have too many ThinkPads...

Just _one_ of my two T42p models has a Samsung, and it's the 15" SXGA+. The other 15" T42p does indeed have a ID Tech UXGA IPS display. Thanks for questioning me, as I try to be accurate and I certainly missed the mark on that one.

Cheers...

[dr_st]

You meant 14" SXGA+ on your T42p, right? T42p's in general never came out with 15" SXGA+, and Samsung never made any IPS panels for Thinkpads or at all.

SXGA+ panels on T42/T43 came either from IDTech or LG (the latter becoming more popular on late T42 and T43 units), UXGA from IDTech only. On the T60, Boe-Hydis replaced IDTech as the sole supplier of UXGA panels and co-supplier (again with LG) of the SXGA+ panels.

[archer6]

<snip> You meant 14" SXGA+ on your T42p, right? <snip>

Yes, you are right... it's TMT, (Too Many ThinkPads) for me....

Cheers...

[sjthinkpader]

...
As correctly stated by George, it is 400:1 vs. 500:1, however, i must say that while the latter has higher contrast it does not behave too well with regards to grayscale tracking and the impression of blackness is not as good. Some colors are also not tracked as well, for example the blue ebay auction setups have a purple tint to it. In other words, there are more parameters than contrast and brightness you should look at also, parameters which are not measured - so the best would be to see it in real life.....

Very good comments. In the early days when there were not enough bits to create the 64 shades, dithering were used to create in between shades. The result were not very good by today's standards. Often the in between shades were closer to one side or the other. Even in today's panels, some have observable uneven grayscale.

I took a look at the X41 Tablet that I returned to seller. That LCD was rated at 450:1 and looked pretty good. But I didn't get a chance to measure it. When the replacement comes, I will do the same measurements.

[sjthinkpader]

I got the replacement X41t yesterday and measured it's BOE-Hydis Flexview display just now.

It was measured at night in a dark room. Procedure is same as before with a Topcon BM-8 meter and a black and white patch in Windows Paint:

White: 138NIT
Black: 0.230NIT
Contrast ratio: 600:1

This display does look pretty good.

[Binh]

It was measured at night in a dark room. Procedure is same as before with a Topcon BM-8 meter and a black and white patch in Windows Paint:

White: 138NIT
Black: 0.230NIT
Contrast ratio: 600:1

This display does look pretty good.

A very good contrast ratio, but the brightness is a bit low for an ultraportable tablet.