future of a dead t42?

[irus]

hi my t42 was an amazing piece of machinery which died an ignominous death! a faulty motherboard! the screen was incredible SXGA+ 14.1 inch with all the security parapharnelia.

now i'm wondering what to do with it? options are
1. sell off part by part all of it
2. sell it as a whole
3. buy a refurb mobo (is a new one available anywhere? FRU 39T5470?)
4. just keep it lying around
5. try a heatgun reflow?

what have you guys done with dead T42s here? Thanks!

[sktn77a]

Do a web search for notebook motherboard repairs or thinkpad motherboard repairs (check e-bay, too). Some places offer $100 repairs no matter what the problem is - and if they can't repair it, there's no charge. A T42 with an SXGA+ display is too nice a notebook to let go.

[poshgeordie]

Sorry to hear of your problems. Retrun carriage costs from UK / Europe to India I know are very expensive indeed.

Regarding the FRU number of the board, I cannot easily find any details about it (though I can see it is a T42 board!).

Could you send me the actual T42 part number which is on the base and is something like 2373-AB2. From that I'll check out any other equivalents and see if I can find some prices.

Also the best thing you could then do is to place a WTB on the Market place too.

[irus]

Do a web search for notebook motherboard repairs or thinkpad motherboard repairs (check e-bay, too). Some places offer $100 repairs no matter what the problem is - and if they can't repair it, there's no charge. A T42 with an SXGA+ display is too nice a notebook to let go.

thanks for the suggestion i did the search and came up with two-three likely places worth sending to. Can you tell me which one will be the best?
1. http://cgi.ebay.com/MOTHERBOARD-REPAIR- ... 7C294%3A50

2.http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-Thinkpad-Workpa ... 7C294%3A50

3.http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-Motherboard-GPU ... 7C294%3A50

The last one is Superior Reball in IL and they do GPU repair. Now i dont know if my board has a GPU issue or a Power Circuit Issue. I guess both. I read a bit about this company here in the forums it wasnt very positive, but these guys seem reasonable. I want to send only the mobo not the whole laptop, to save on some shipping! Any Suggestions?

[irus]

Sorry to hear of your problems. Retrun carriage costs from UK / Europe to India I know are very expensive indeed.

Regarding the FRU number of the board, I cannot easily find any details about it (though I can see it is a T42 board!).

Could you send me the actual T42 part number which is on the base and is something like 2373-AB2. From that I'll check out any other equivalents and see if I can find some prices.

Also the best thing you could then do is to place a WTB on the Market place too.

Hi the website http://www.indiapost.gov.in/tarifffgn.a ... %2C1%2C%2C suggests an Air Parcel of 1000 Grams (approx weight of mobo) would cost Rs 690 to send across to USA. Around GBP 7.00 or USD 15 which is reasonable!

the number is 2373-P44. Whats a WTB?

[irus]

i found thinkpadmedic.com as well selling a 39t5470 for $270, a refurb board... v expensive. any comments on these guys as a last resort?

[poshgeordie]

Regarding the comments about Superior Reball, please read this very recent post.

The site mods here don't sticky such posts without very good reason. I can only say decide for yourself if you want to use them.

[poshgeordie]

WTB is Want To Buy - if you go to the Market Place part of this forum you can place a WTB request for a new board.

I'll do a bit of work on the model number and get back to you.

Regarding postage from UK back to India, the price is around £54 (Rs 4212). This was for a stripped down board in the smallest package I could get it safely into - it's bad I know but that's the UK for you.

Also PM will be sent - has now been sent!.

[irus]

WTB is Want To Buy - if you go to the Market Place part of this forum you can place a WTB request for a new board.

I'll do a bit of work on the model number and get back to you.

Regarding postage from UK back to India, the price is around £54 (Rs 4212). This was for a stripped down board in the smallest package I could get it safely into - it's bad I know but that's the UK for you.

Also PM will be sent.

I did read that post about reball co. and now it seems the entire idea of sending the board for repairs is too costly (as u've pointed out). The original mobo in this at the time of purchase was 27k9985 which is replaceable by 39t5470 as per the ibm hq here. now im wondering if its best to order from ebay singapore? can i use this opportunity to upgrade to a t43p board 39t0479? will that fit in the machine and run the 14inch sxga+, current ram hdd, processor tcpa and fps. Thanks!

[poshgeordie]

PM now sent - & I reworked the carriage for a package of up to 1kg and this works out at £40.43 (Rs 3155).

A T43 board won't fit in a T40-1-2 base.

Your T42 is based on 2373-K5A which is fitted with Radeon 9600 graphics chip, also known as ATI M10-64.

From the IBM parts list, the only T42 board in this category are

93P4158
27K9908

I'm sure there will be others but I'm quoting the 'official' list here.

I found a thread on T42 board FRU's which indicates the parts list is out of date or inaccurate.

eBay searches doesn't reveal much at the moment either and what is on offer does not always look like the right graphics chip's fitted so be careful.

<EDIT: added board and chip information>

[irus]

PM now sent - & I reworked the carriage for a package of up to 1kg and this works out at £40.43 (Rs 3155).

A T43 board won't fit in a T40-1-2 base.

Your T42 is based on 2373-K5A which is fitted with Radeon 9600 graphics chip, also known as ATI M10-64.

From the IBM parts list, the only T42 board in this category are

93P4158
27K9908

I'm sure there will be others but I'm quoting the 'official' list here.

I found a thread on T42 board FRU's which indicates the parts list is out of date or inaccurate.

eBay searches doesn't reveal much at the moment either and what is on offer does not always look like the right graphics chip's fitted so be careful.

<EDIT: added board and chip information>

hi thanks posh!

i went through the parts manual on the site and didnt find 27k9985(originally fitted in my t42)/39t5470(current rohs compliant replacement) but i found 27k9911 which has 64mb ati card +tcpa+fps and fits a 14.1 inch t42 system. I guess it fulfils all requirements. Besides that the board 27k9912 has same features but has a 128 mb ATI chip. Is the VGA chip issue common in 27k9912(i.e. 128 mb ATI chips?)? i might order from acsoutlet.com or ebay singapore when any of these become available.

another set of boards which i found were like above except did not have FPS were 27k9981 and 27k9908, current rohs compliant replacement for either being 39t5468. Can u confirm if these will work as i think they will in a 14.1" t42 chassis?

summary
14.1+ati64+tcpa+fps (original board replacement)
27k9985
39t5470
27k9911

14.1+ati128+tcpa+fps (looks like a good upgrade, is the VGA chip issue common on 128 ATI's too?)
27k9912
27k9987
39t5475

14.1+ati64+tcpa (last resort as it doesnt have FPS)
27k9981
27k9908
39t5468

i suspect the manufacturing process will be different and materials used different too in the 39 series (since its rohs compliant) compared to 27 series boards. Maybe the VGA chip issue is fixed in 39 series?

[poshgeordie]

Short answer to the chip problem being fixed in the 39 series - NO!

I'll get back with answers on the board details you've sent.

[irus]

update: thanks to all of you guys esp posh ive located a board on ebay and its on its way here. finally settled at $81 +$35 shipping and probably $20-$25 import/custom duty here! the board has Finger print support, security chip, ATI 64 mb and is of old vintage 27k series not the 39k rohs ones, so the soldering should hold up good. should be here in 5-7 days.

now the next step is installing the fan/heatsink on the board. my motherboard has the long fan type but after removal of the heatsink has no pink pad and the surface is slick copper - all black goo removed. i suspect the board which is coming will have a slick/clean ati chip too.

in that case whats the best way to ensure maximum contact between the ati chip and heatsink? also should i use arctic silver 5 or the regular white paste type thing? or should i hunt for the pink pad?

thanks!

[poshgeordie]

That's seems a reasonable price.

Regarding the contact between the heatsinks, mount the fan assembly and check if it physically touches the GPU top (with no pink pad). Also remember the fan assembly heatsink is held down via a fairly flexible mounting hole point by one of the keyboard mounting pillars.

If the two surfaces touch OK (which certainly with some gfx chips they do), then I'd say a THIN layer of Arctic Silver will do the job.

If not then you'll need a pink pad. I'll source one for you later on for you.

[poshgeordie]

Thermal pads - suggest putting 'thermal pad' into eBay - and selecting "other laptop accessories" or similar.

The reason is that there are various thicknesses of pad, and if you need a pad then you'll have to select the right thickness one.
Regarding the dimensions, I'm fairly sure you can use a pair of scissors or a knife to cut it to size.

[irus]

thanks for the ebay link. so i understand that first a thin layer of arctic silver goes on the gpu then on the copper surface of heatsink and inbetween a fresh/clean thermal pad sits?

another point is artic silver is a metalic based thermal compound which could interfere with circuitry around the board. is the arctic silver ceramique (non conductive) better? i dont want to take chances with the circuitry and re application of thermal compound too often. something like do it once and forget it for a long time is what i want.

[poshgeordie]

thanks for the ebay link. so i understand that first a thin layer of arctic silver goes on the gpu then on the copper surface of heatsink and inbetween a fresh/clean thermal pad sits?

Not quite. It's an either / or thing.
IF you need a pad then you use the pad only.
IF you don't need one (ie the two metal surfaces are in good contact already) then I suggest using heatsink compound.

In both cases both mating metal surfaces should be spotlessly clean and scratch free so don't use screwdrivers etc to remove old compound. If really necessary use some methelated spirits but elbow grease usually works!

another point is artic silver is a metalic based thermal compound which could interfere with circuitry around the board. is the arctic silver ceramique (non conductive) better? i dont want to take chances with the circuitry and re application of thermal compound too often. something like do it once and forget it for a long time is what i want.

Have a look at the specs here for Arctic Silver 5. Especially refer to this para:

Not Electrically Conductive:
Arctic Silver 5 was formulated to conduct heat, not electricity.
(While much safer than electrically conductive silver and copper greases, Arctic Silver 5 should be kept away from electrical traces, pins, and leads. While it is not electrically conductive, the compound is very slightly capacitive and could potentially cause problems if it bridges two close-proximity electrical paths.)

When you apply any heatsink compound Less is definitely More. It should be applied as thinly as possible and then more thinly than that!! Some people apply a tiny dot to the centre of the metal component surface and tease it over the surface using something like a credit card or knife blade.

What you're aiming to do is to fill in the tiny imperfections between the two mating metal surfaces. Using too much puts a physical paste barrier between the two mating surfaces, and causes poor heat conduction from the component to the heatsink.
So to answer your question, there's no problem using Silver provided it's applied correctly.

Ceramique is also fine to use as well.

[irus]

ok if the copper surface of heatsink is slightly scratched already then would it be wise to have a near transparent rubbing of AS5 on it to fill up the ridges and then stick the thermal pad on the heatsink and leave the gpu as is?

can the same thermal pad be cut in size for the cpu too? for some pressured contact. and similarly rub as5 very lightly on copper contact area to even out the ridges if any. or will this make the thermal pad stick improperly to the heatsink?

[irus]

i just experimented with a transparent layer of white paste on the heatsink and tried sticking on a post-it note (to simulate a thermal pads sticky side). it kept slipping. so that wont work

so i figure since the gpu surface is very smooth ill stick the thermal pad on the gpu and rub a v v small quanitity of as5 on the heatsink part which contacts the gpu. this should work well ?

in reverse of the above since copper surface where cpu contacts the heatsink is smooth ill stick the thermal pad on the heatsink. and apply a very thin layer of as5 on the cpu itself. should work well again?

btw on the side i figured using post it notes on the transparent layer of white paste halves the paste on the heatsink which can be spread using a finger there after. the resulting metal is very shiny meaning the ridges are filled up and its reflecting light marvellously well and the layer is extremely thin since the copper is clearly visible.

[irus]

http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content ... /26951.pdf

refering to the above it seems mixing thermal pads and AS5 is strictly prohibited!

in that case

As5 for cpu.
and
As5 for gpu too

but if i use the pad then what about the black goop? thats still missing?!

and another thing i removed the white metalic faceplate of the ATI 64 mb chip from the current mobo and it looks like this
http://www.legitreviews.com/images/revi ... remove.jpg

except it has ATI branding. All the four memory modules had their thermal paste dried up and were like cement (pic attached),
however the shiny mirror chip in the centre sits lower by 1 mm than the memory modules and as u can make out from the white plate (in the pics attached) it had no thermal compound on it, just the slight embossed centre to ensure contact is there.


is it recommended to remove the ati faceplate which contacts the gpu and put a thermal pad instead? along with that renew the thermal cement with AS5 on the memoery modules and the shiny mirror interface?
or is that calling for trouble? like the guy here has done http://forums.legitreviews.com/about2713.html

thanks!

PS this is what my t42 looks like (reference to the white plate removed from the ATI 64 mb chip and some thermal cement residue on the memory modules)
http://yfrog.com/0a23062009116jx

[poshgeordie]

Not sure where to start here....!

Replying in no particular order but from what has immediately occured to me...

I agree (as I've said before ) that thermal pads and paste don't mix. The pads are designed to work by themselves. They aren't sticky but also they aren't non-sticky either. You should be able to press them in place and they'll stay there.

The black goo is a kind of adhesive (which does dissolve with meths or flux remover BTW). It's purpose has always been a slight mystery to me, but I guess was meant to keep the mating surfaces together in a rather crude fashion.
Personally I've never repaced it but just made sure that there's a decent contact between the surfaces.

Re the links with the Nividia chip, to start off with this chip has even more problems than 'our' ATI one - I'm doing a lot of reflow work on laptops fitted with them. (also just done one with a VIA GPU - where will this end?!)
Also I don't like to compare what someone with an 'Nividia' laptop has done and then link it to an 'ATI' one. There are too many variables and to make such a link involves side-by-side study of the two machines and to list the similarities and differences and to then come to some conclusions.

What really worried me was the statement that a visible gap between the GPU chip and the heatsink was filled with heatsink compound. when "trowelled" on like this, heatsink compound just cannot do its job, which is to fill in any minute imperfections between two metal surfaces (including a screwdriver scratch or two BTW). It's not there to bridge a gap, and if there is one, then a thermal pad of the correct thickness should be used instead - this is what they were designed for.

Interesting link to how to correctly use heatsink compound on an ATI CPU - OK I haven't studied it in detail, but the overall theme appears to be to use just enough heatsink compound to fill the surface imperfections.

Removing the plate worries me because depending on how it's done, it'll put a huge strain on the solder balls ball grid array (BGA) and if a GPU doesn't suffer from the graphics problem before removing the plate, then it sure will afterwards!!!
Seriously though, I'd suggest not removing the plate if your GPU is working OK.

BTW - how did you remove the plate?

Re the embossed centre section - yes I would add a superthin layer of heatsink compound between actually all 5 components on the GPU chip assembly and not just the central GPU.
As to how you're going to re-bond the plate back onto the GPU assembly, I've no idea.

Reading your second to last post and using post-it notes etc. Again don't mix thermal pads and heatsink compound (read above). Also if you're using post-it's then there must be such a small gap (or none at all?) between the mating surfaces that a thermal pad isn't needed but just compound.

Overall I get the impression you're making a big mountain out of a molehill (so to speak!). Maybe take a step back and remember what you're trying to achieve - a decent thermal connection between the CPU and GPR and the fan assembly mating surfaces. Just use the right materials for the job.

Interesting discussion though...

[irus]

haha i agree on the mountain out of the molehill idiom! and yes it surely is interesting

i removed the top cover of the gpu by using a knife and sawing away from the 4 edges of the chip towards the centre through the cement on the memory modules slowly. at the end a slight bit of shaking is required to take off the cover.

there is no way of putting things back, those 4 patches of cement/adhesive is what holds it down. but could this dried up cement and lack of contact with the gpu and embossed heatsink area be causing the problems so widespread instead of the bga problem?

if this is the structure underneath the white cover, reflowing could harm the cement on memory modules by drying it out too much or shrinking/burning the thermal pad between the gpu and embossed white cover.?

despite this ph.d research and analysis ill not be playing with the new motherboards gpu when it comes in!! and also will keep it simple with the pad on gpu and as5 on cpu!

[poshgeordie]

I think you'll find the embossed part of the plate will be touching the centre GPU heatsink, but it'll be a 'dry' metal to metal contact.

I think you make an interesting point about this contact in that using AS5 just on that chip surface can do no harm; however I'd only apply it if the plate's already been removed.

Regarding gluing the plate back on again, what you need is some adhesive which will work to allow you to hold the plate in place so that you can then place the fan assembly heatsink on it.
Remove all the existing adhesive (not sure how - you'll have to experiment) and try putting some dots of super glue between the edges of the memory chips and the underside of the plate (rather than on the top mating surfaces).
I'm also thinking about the melting point of the glue when the chip becomes hot, and I guess ideally some more high temperature adhesive would be better but could be more expensive - been researching domestic Araldite but can't find a spec sheet yet.

[irus]

the superglue point is quite good. thats a nice way of reattaching things. always works

the metal to metal contact is barely there, design flaw? AS5/pad is a must between the gpu chip and ati cover from what i can see.

however this double deckered design seems quite a compromise. gpu chip+PAD no.1+white cover+black gump+pink PAD no.2+more black stuff and finally the heat sink. the heat transfer efficiency would be awful with so many layers and materials; and this heat sink has no screws of its own to secure it in place. just the keyboard ones. on top north bridge has no heat sink at all! not even sure if this white ati cover is copper or some more inferior metal.

the heatsink design leaves a lot to be desired. a larger/chunkier heatsink with direct copper contact on the gpu chip and memory modules + contact for north bridge +screws on either side would have even reduced the mother board flex. i wonder if there is such a modified heatsink for t42 in the market?

not sure if this can be legally brought under the design flaw/manufacturing flaw, if it could then lot of people could get compensated.

pretty terrible value for money, for how long it lasted and how it ended!

[RealBlackStuff]

been researching domestic Araldite but can't find a spec sheet yet.

A quick Google with "araldite spec sheet" shows you all the info you want/need...
And FYI: Araldite is not UK native, but Swiss, invented by Ciba Geigy in Basle.

[poshgeordie]

Mmmm I think you're being a bit hard on the general design. OK there could be improvements but overall I feel it works.

As I said in an earlier post, maybe take a step back slightly and remember that there are 1000's of these around which have given (are giving) good service.
The GPU problem cannot be entirely laid at IBM / Lenovo's door. The 'problem' with forums like this is we only read about the problems and people don't generally join unless their TP has gone wrong.

Regarding the type of metal used, I guess it's aluminium which is a good conductor of heat; also if there's a metal to metal contact no matter how 'tenuous', then it's a contact.

You're right about layering thermal pads etc, but as I've said before, it's either a pad or paste, not both.

But I don't see there's any legal issues with the design generally - if you think there's design problems with the T40 series, you should see what some other well known manufacturers produce!! And no I'm not naming names....

[poshgeordie]

And FYI: Araldite is not UK native, but Swiss, invented by Ciba Geigy in Basle.

Do you mean to say there's something in the world us Brits haven't invented?!!

Actually I didn't know that - you learn something new every day...

[killer]

CIBA owned Araldite in the 1960s when I visited the factory at Duxford in Cambridgeshire. However, the product (Araldite ... not epoxy resin) was I believe invented at Duxford.

Anyway, it is an excellent European product with a world-wide reputation.

I do hope the Swiss won't lay claim to inventing Cricket.

[irus]

Mmmm I think you're being a bit hard on the general design. OK there could be improvements but overall I feel it works.

just the heatsink. i love the keyboard on a t42 and mostly everything else (when its working)!

As I said in an earlier post, maybe take a step back slightly and remember that there are 1000's of these around which have given (are giving) good service.
The GPU problem cannot be entirely laid at IBM / Lenovo's door. The 'problem' with forums like this is we only read about the problems and people don't generally join unless their TP has gone wrong.

thats a good point. one should visit this place before ordering a new thinkpad. problem of everykind gets recorded here.

Regarding the type of metal used, I guess it's aluminium which is a good conductor of heat; also if there's a metal to metal contact no matter how 'tenuous', then it's a contact.

is the gpu chip contact point made of metal? its quite shiny, looks almost glassy?

You're right about layering thermal pads etc, but as I've said before, it's either a pad or paste, not both.

yes thats widely accepted (thanks for bringing it to my knowledge). maybe those designing the gpu / heatsinks forgot it!

But I don't see there's any legal issues with the design generally - if you think there's design problems with the T40 series, you should see what some other well known manufacturers produce!! And no I'm not naming names....

i hope thinkpads under lenovo are still the best. i was considering another one, if this had to be disposed off altogether. maybe a t400? i read about its keyboard having flex issues (not the motherboard having flex issues thankfully tho).

[irus]

i was going through the forums here and found a t43 fan which covers the northbridge for cooling. FRU 91P8754, 26R8197

curious if either of these FRUs' installable in a T42? and whats the performance like?

original thread: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... ge#p505537