T42 and fan noise

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mrflynn · #1 Post by **mrflynn** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:40 am

Did IBM fix the fan noises' issues heard in some T4x posts???
does the t42 use the short or long fan part???
is it silent (Can i use it in a library and let it on during night in my bedroom during night downloading???)

thanks in advance

gg3761 · #2 Post by **gg3761** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:10 am

On my T42 2379-DXU there is no noise. It is virtually silent.

lophiomys · #3 Post by **lophiomys** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:30 am

On my R50 there is a plusating fan noise, when the fan is running.
IBM did't fix it so far...
IMHO they try to ignore it and to wait long enough,
until affected customers will loose their faith in their rights...
Keep asking.

benz · #4 Post by **benz** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:15 am

lophiomys wrote:On my R50 there is a plusating fan noise, when the fan is running.
IBM did't fix it so far...
IMHO they try to ignore it and to wait long enough,
until affected customers will loose their faith in their rights...
Keep asking.

He asked about the T42, not your R50. There is a difference, my friend.

vpn-user · #5 Post by **vpn-user** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:18 am

No, there isnt. Same BIOS and therefore same FAN control.

I' ve seen a T42p with exactly the same problem (FAN stupidly running all the time when on power from the mains and 5 second howling).

This is not a mechanical but a software (BIOS) problem, IBM didn' t fix so far.

IBM just does not care about it.

Conmee · #6 Post by **Conmee** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:02 am

Folks,

It's not a software BIOS problem, it's a temperature sensor, power, and/or grounding problem. If you're up for it, try this simple test: Remove the palmrest, remove the keyboard (but keep the flat ribbon cable plugged in), remove the screws that bolt the fan onto the CPU, and lift the fan up so it doesn't make contact with the video card. Then turn on the ThinkPad. Guess what? No cycling or 'fan throb'. Bolt the fan back down onto the CPU (preferrably while not running to avoid shock), and guess what? Fan cycling or 'fan throb' return! How cool is that!!?!? lol

I think the problem is that IBM's motherboard design and the way the cooling fan is situated to cover the CPU and GPU together is causing the problem. The T41p and T42p long fan has a different kind of insulator/heat sink that contacts the GPU than the long fan used on T41/T40/T40p and the Radeon/FireGL 9000 GPUs. I believe that's why when I changed the fan in my T40p to a T41p long fan, the pulsating and constant fan noise disappeared. The different insulating fixed the grounding or other problems the original fan was having. So it's definitely not BIOS or software. And I don't believe it's the FAN hardware either. Just some combination of short fan or long fan with inadequate grounding causes the problem. Finally, the T41p long fan that I used had a small strip of adhesive and then a metal heat sink that sat above the GPU. The original T40p just had a big adhesive cushion (no metal), hence the most likely reason the T41p fan eliminated my noise problem.

For those folks (and I don't know of any/many) who have the 'fan throb' problem with the T41p (not T41), I'd suggest making sure the heat sink and fan are fully in contact with the GPU. The fan is moderately flexible, so it could have bent just enough to lose the grounding/contact with the GPU, thus causing the pulsing. The fan being always on, however, is more likely due to the temp sensors picking up heat readings that keep the fan running. Depending on usage, some folks may hear the fan more often than others. Who knows?

But for those folks who want a 'fanless' or very quite system, keep in mind that heat kills microelectronics. And over time, systems that run at higher temps (even within manufacturers' specs and even if Pentium M's which are designed for the mobile market and to run cooler) will tend to fail more quickly--over the long run--than those systems that run cooler. I think IBM tends to err on the side of longevity v. silence in their cooling decisions. Nevertheless, my experience with the T Series machines is that they are some of the quietest notebooks around (not counting notebooks without fan cooling). As for the R Series notebooks, they have bigger exhaust/intake vents than the T Series, and the additional air moving between the vents makes a loud whoosh-type sound than the T Series. I definitely notice R Series being louder (and even IBM admits that, with a 40db rating for the R Series v. a 36db rating for the T Series)...

Daniel.

mrflynn · #7 Post by **mrflynn** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:38 am

Daniel,

you did not tell me anything about your fan experience of your last T42...

Moreover, how can I check what fan is used in t42 2373-3UU or 2378-FVU ???

thanks in advance
Tony

vpn-user · #8 Post by **vpn-user** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:02 am

I had built in the long M10 FAN of the T41p into my R50p and guess what? The FAN behaves just like before. The 5 second howling is just a litte quieter, but still there.

And yes, there definitely was contact between heatsink an GPU. So thats not the problem.

So I had to sell my Thinkpad.

vpn-user · #9 Post by **vpn-user** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:06 am

Conmee wrote:Folks,

It's not a software BIOS problem, it's a temperature sensor, power, and/or grounding problem. If you're up for it, try this simple test: Remove the palmrest, remove the keyboard (but keep the flat ribbon cable plugged in), remove the screws that bolt the fan onto the CPU, and lift the fan up so it doesn't make contact with the video card. Then turn on the ThinkPad. Guess what? No cycling or 'fan throb'. Bolt the fan back down onto the CPU (preferrably while not running to avoid shock), and guess what? Fan cycling or 'fan throb' return! How cool is that!!?!? lol

Doing so would be just stupid and suicide since the CPU is not cooled at all when lifting up the heatsink during operation.

Don' t try

Conmee · #10 Post by **Conmee** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:21 am

vpn-user wrote:
Conmee wrote:Folks,

It's not a software BIOS problem, it's a temperature sensor, power, and/or grounding problem. If you're up for it, try this simple test: Remove the palmrest, remove the keyboard (but keep the flat ribbon cable plugged in), remove the screws that bolt the fan onto the CPU, and lift the fan up so it doesn't make contact with the video card. Then turn on the ThinkPad. Guess what? No cycling or 'fan throb'. Bolt the fan back down onto the CPU (preferrably while not running to avoid shock), and guess what? Fan cycling or 'fan throb' return! How cool is that!!?!? lol

Doing so would be just stupid and suicide since the CPU is not cooled at all when lifting up the heatsink during operation.

Don' t try

Well, I should preface my remarks above with "Voids Warranty" and "Suicidal" and the like. Sorry about your poor experience with IBM ThinkPads. And I like your hyperbole too, vpn-user. Stupid and suicide? lmao. I wasn't suggesting you run the OS and launch benchmarks and play video games... I did my test just sitting at the BIOS screen. At any rate, the Pentium M 1.4 and 1.5GHz CPUs in some Acer and white-box notebooks don't even use fans or active cooling... so it's hardly suicide to turn on a Pentium M system for a moment or two without fan contact, even a 1.6GHz unit. As the Pentium M, to one of your previous posts as well as others' posts, is a CPU meant to require as little cooling as possible in normal operating conditions. So a few moments at startup without the fan is no big deal. And I can attest to the fact that I didn't kill myself or the CPU by doing so, and with anti-static gloves and some careful maneuvering, I doubt I voided my warranty either... as for the stupidity part, that's probably going to remain subjective. lol

Again, I don't suggest to anyone to actually do what I did, unless they are adventurous and aren't risk-averse.. lol... my point is that you have been railing against IBM and the BIOS as the culprit, and I'm telling you that you're mistaken, that's all. And I do agree with you that IBM should acknowlege the fan problem FOR THOSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND I and others who encountered the fan problem. Because it's definitely a real problem, even though the majority of people haven't experienced it.

Daniel.

Conmee · #11 Post by **Conmee** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:55 am

Also, I was browsing the tech specs for the Pentium M (Banias, not Dothan--BTW, my posts above are in regard to the Banias CPUs in the T40/T41) for some additional info on thermal specs for CPUs, and interestingly, Intel incorporates a "Catastrophic Thermal Protection" option which automatically shuts down the CPU (internal clocks and activity) when it reaches temps of 125 degrees celsius or higher... IBM incorporates this and fan failure/CPU shutdown as well. ThinkPads won't boot at all and hard stop with a fan error if the fan is malfunctioning/broken/unplugged. So there is a good amount of safety built-in to 'idiot-proof' Pentium M's for those of us that are suicidal and stupid.

Daniel.

taphil · #12 Post by **taphil** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:43 pm

[quote] Finally, the T41p long fan that I used had a small strip of adhesive and then a metal heat sink that sat above the GPU. The original T40p just had a big adhesive cushion (no metal), hence the most likely reason the T41p fan eliminated my noise problem. [quote]

It's not grounding. I've had a T41p in direct contact with my GPU (metal on metal) and with a heat pad in between, and there's no difference.

The T40/41 fan throbed like crazy because it's noisy. The T41p fan seems to solve the problem because it's so quiet compared to the other fan. If you put your ear close enough to the fan and listen in a quiet room, it still throbs once every 5 seconds. But for all practical purposes, it's fixed with the quiet fan.

taphil · #13 Post by **taphil** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:53 pm

Conmee wrote:If you're up for it, try this simple test: Remove the palmrest, remove the keyboard (but keep the flat ribbon cable plugged in), remove the screws that bolt the fan onto the CPU, and lift the fan up so it doesn't make contact with the video card. Then turn on the ThinkPad. Guess what? No cycling or 'fan throb'. Bolt the fan back down onto the CPU (preferrably while not running to avoid shock), and guess what? Fan cycling or 'fan throb' return! How cool is that!!?!? lol

In this case, no GPU-heatsink contact = no throbbing

This contradicts what you say later on....

For those folks (and I don't know of any/many) who have the 'fan throb' problem with the T41p (not T41), I'd suggest making sure the heat sink and fan are fully in contact with the GPU. The fan is moderately flexible, so it could have bent just enough to lose the grounding/contact with the GPU, thus causing the pulsing.

GPU-heatsink contact = no throbbing

And what also doesn't make sense is that on the T41+Radeon 9000, the heatsink can NEVER contact the GPU because there's that 2-3mm thick heatpad in the way. In that case, it's impossible for the GPU to contact the the heatsink, yet there's still throbbing.

So it does have to do with the BIOS or whatever else is there to control the fan. And the fan itself plays a role because the stock one is so dang noisy.

Conmee · #14 Post by **Conmee** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:26 pm

Taphil,

Some folks seem to suggest or have T41p models that exhibit the 'throb' which indeed would seem to contradict my assertion that the T41p Long Fan solves the problem. However, I can say with certainty that the T41p fan I installed in my T40p doesn't 'throb' and even when I have the system on full power and keeping my ear to the fan while running benchmarks, I don't even hear a faint 'throb' that others seem to experience. So I was only speaking of other people's experience with noisy T41p fans in that quote you singled out. I didn't mean to contradict myself, but other folks' experience would suggest that the T41p Long Fan DOESN'T solve the problem. But for me, and a few others on this board, it DID fix the problem... although to various degrees ranging from no fan 'throb' to 'very slight fan throb' etc.

As for the other quote you mention, I forget sometimes to be ACCURATE and LITERAL with this online crowd.

When I suggest the heatsink CONTACT with the GPU, I mean CONTACT with the 'sticky foam pad' in the case of a T40p long fan, the thin layer of black thermal tape on the T41p long fan, and the very thin thermal tape on the T42p fan that sits between the fan and the silver heat spreader on the MR9600 and FireGL T2. So in my example you quote, if you were to LIFT the part of the fan that has the sticky foam heatpad off the FireGL 9000 GPU, my original T40p Long Fan DOES NOT 'throb'. When I say CONTACT in this instance, I mean GPU contact with the heatpad. Now, it could be that without the tension of the fan pressing down on the CPU actually alleviates this fan throb problem, but I am just reporting what I did, and the results. And if my T40p long fan works fine when NOT bolted down and NOT touching the GPU, I don't see how the BIOS is to blame. In fact, if you ask Bill or a majority of ThinkPad owners, they don't experience the fan throb in any manner (loud or slight), so how can it be a BIOS problem when the vast majority of IBM ThinkPads don't exhibit the fan problem yet have the same BIOS? Again, I suspect that it may be a thermal sensor or other grounding/electrical issue, which isn't out of the realm of possibility, depending upon how IBM has engineered the entire thermal solution, from power to heat dissipation to component location to grounding to airflow to thermal sensors.

At any rate, the bottom line is that there IS a fan problem to some extent, call it hardware or BIOS, and that IBM has yet to identify or address it (at least for those folks that have experienced the problem).

I just hope my new T42p (like my T42) has a quiet fan with no fan throb, so I can leave this whole sordid discussion behind me... lol

Daniel.

james32904 · #15 Post by **james32904** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:08 pm

When you pull the fan off, that means the thermal sensor (which I assume would be mounted on the chip or heatsink) sees a rise in temperature. The BIOS then ramps the fan up to a higher speed, while you're holding it there in your hand. Now if you ever notice when the fan is installed and the laptop closed, when the unit gets hot, the fan ramps up but STOPS throbbing when at higher speeds. So your fan there in your hand is running at higher speed (and not throbbing..because a fast fan doesn't throb) because (guess what) the thermal sensor has heated up... I agree with those who say this is a BIOS and fan controller issue. Every 5 seconds or so, the BIOS or other software reads the sensor, looks up a value in a table, pulls the required fan speed out of the table, and jams it into a motor speed control register. This causes the fan controller to "reset", causes the fan to pulsate slightly until it settles down to the commanded speed, and there you go... Only a theory of course...

geobel · #16 Post by **geobel** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:13 pm

I repeated Daniel experiments on my system some time ago with both the stock and T41p fans. Overall the results were similar, though I could always here cycling, even if I held fan in my hand... However the loudness of cycling decreased in the following order: Stock fan>>T41p fan>>Stock fan without contact>T41p fan without contact. So my conclusion is that all the effects are acoustic rather than electric in nature. Acoustic depends on so many parameters of the system that it is not unexpected that cycling may become inaudible for some but not for others.

Gosha

Conmee · #17 Post by **Conmee** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:28 pm

james32904 wrote:When you pull the fan off, that means the thermal sensor (which I assume would be mounted on the chip or heatsink) sees a rise in temperature. The BIOS then ramps the fan up to a higher speed, while you're holding it there in your hand. Only a theory of course...

James,

One last comment.... the fan wasn't running at high speed and it wasn't throbbing... while in my hand... (I won't even bother to comment on how odd that last sentence just sounded out loud... lmao)... Even after a few minutes of running without the fan/heatsink in place, it didn't ramp up the CPU fan speed. I didn't run it long enough with the fan out of place to have the fan hit high speed.

Anyhow, I've since sold my T40p and other ThinkPads, and this fan issue will be history for me when my new T42p arrives.

Daniel.

spirifer · #18 Post by **spirifer** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:29 am

Hello,

I have a T41 with radeon 7500 30giga 4200 tr/min, very silent room.. the fan is the short fan and the fan stupidly running all the time when on power and 5 second howling,
i bought the T42p fan (13R2657 (FAN LONG), 20€ in France

) and the fan stupidly running all the time and we can ear the 5 second howling,
i think that the problems is always present because the contact between the GPU and the fan is not good (M10 or M11 don't have the same shap that my radeon 7500).
you can see on this post a solution if you downclock your GPU, but
for me the problems is always present:
http://spotlight.de/zforen/ntb/m/ntb-10 ... -2553.html.
The only way to make a silent T41:
make an 80mm (at 5 V) fan under your laptop

, the T° (give buy mobilmeter) is always under 39°C (the stupidly running fan start at 39° on my T).

If you changed the original fan, the warranty is avoid or not ?
Thanks

Don't buy IBM if you want a silent laptop

(my topic about noise problem http://forum.tt-hardware.com/ultimatebb ... =012978&p=)

dclee012 · #19 Post by **dclee012** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:42 am

when the fan runs at high speed, (high cpu/gpu usage) it seems to stay at high speed even after i've stopped taxing the system. it only slows down after a reboot.. (t42)

sangsu34 · #20 Post by **sangsu34** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:48 am

dclee012 , I solved the problem with the latest BIOS

dclee012 · #21 Post by **dclee012** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:36 pm

it seems i have the latest bios.. hmmm

sangsu34 · #22 Post by **sangsu34** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:12 am

really...

I recommend that you install the lastest Bios(non disk version) again and set default.

Mike8 · #23 Post by **Mike8** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:34 pm

Hi!

I use an IBM T41 with newest bios version (3.05a). But the fan-problem is always there.

regards,

mike8

Skywing · #24 Post by **Skywing** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:58 pm

i just got in my 2373-3VU yesterday, there are no fan issues at all, its dead silent and only on when i have the proc running at max speed. even when it is on the only way i know is if i put my hand on the vent.

geobel · #25 Post by **geobel** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:38 pm

Skywing wrote: when it is on the only way i know is if i put my hand on the vent.

If you do not hear fan you logically do not hear cycling also. Those who hear the fan always hear cycling...
Gosha

sangsu34 · #26 Post by **sangsu34** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:18 pm

My recommendation was about running at high speed on and on.
and My fan has been in the fan problem too.

so I'm considering replacement the fan to 13N5347.

Mike8 · #27 Post by **Mike8** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:48 am

Hi geobel,

i saw, that you replaced your orig. fan with the long fan from t41p. What's your experience? Did ist solve your fan problem?

regrads,
Mike8

geobel · #28 Post by **geobel** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:29 am

Not completely. T41p fan cycles the same way as stock fan did. However T41p fan is considerably more quiet than stock fan and the sound frequency is different and somewhat more pleasant. Also the cycling sound is more like a tick rather than terrible mosquito buzz of stock fan. So I am not completely satisfied with the fan but would recommend everybody to make fan swap. The swap transforms the problem from totally unacceptable to mildly annoying...

Gosha

sangsu34 · #29 Post by **sangsu34** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:40 am

Hi geobel,

Could you tell me the part number of new fan ?
I would like to replace the stock fan to the t41p fan.
If you use the New fan (13R2657), I will use too.
But if you use 13N5347, I cannot get the part from USA and KOREA...

Would you tell me the part number.

have a nice day ~

dclee012 · #30 Post by **dclee012** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:56 am

sangsu34 wrote:really...

I recommend that you install the lastest Bios(non disk version) again and set default.

uh.. well if i have the latest bios, it wouldn't chang anything to install the latest bios. it won't even let you "reinstall" an identical version.

T42 and fan noise

T42 and fan noise

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