The premium on a Thinkpad machine?

[T22user]

There is an enormous amount of knowledge and experience here that I'd like to tap into. I love my older thinkpad and plan to upgrade just as soon as feasible to a T42. Everywhere I look I see more powerful systems that are far cheaper. I'm believe they are inferior but I don't know why. Can someone explain just where and why they are inferior? They appear to be built from the same basic building blocks of a Thinkpad and MUCH cheaper. An example. HP Pavilion DV1000 with XP Pro, Pentium M735, 14" WXGA Brightview, 1GB SDRAM, 100GB 4200 RPM drive, 8x DVD - RW/R, 54G 802.11 B/G, Bluetooth, 12 cell Lithium for $1662 new. A thinkpad with those internals would have a $1000+ premium from what I can gather.
This might be like trying to compare apples to oranges or Camaro to a Ferrari, Harley to Honda, Spam to prime rib (you get the idea). What is it that accounts for the differences and after those differences what is the IBM Thinkpad marque worth? How does this change when I compare Dell or Fujitsu or Sony (higher dollar machines)? I like to be an informed consumer and more importantly, I like to know that I get my money's worth when I invest in quality equipment. I look forward to learning from the forum's responses. Thank you all.

[IBMorBust]

I'm a new T42 owner here, so maybe that will make my opinion more legitimate, or less (I'm not sure).

But I have owned a lot of computers and laptops.

The more minutes I log on my T42, the more I grow to appreciate it.

Here are my likes, in order of importance to me:

1) Keyboard - better than any other laptop keyboard I have ever used, bar none. Rivals or betters desktop keyboards. NO flex, great key travel, awesome textile feel. Simply unrivaled. For a business user like me, it's nirvana.

2) Security features - With the encrypted HD, imbedded security features, and the new biometric fingerprint scanner, I am fairly confident that my data and personal info is as secure as possible in the event I lose track of my T42 (God forbid) or someone tries to access my system.

3) 3 Year Warranty Standard - Means a lot to a laptop user who travels a lot and depends on a laptop for their productivity. Couple that with IBM's fast turnaround service, great service in general, and the Warranty has teeth.

4) The other factors - The keyboard "nightlight" is a great example. Whoever came up with this idea deserves special praise. I can imagine being in an airplane at night, with the person sleeping next to me, and being able to turn on this nifty little light to illuminate my keyboard without distubing them. The hard drive shock sensor that parks the heads to reduce the chance of damage is another innovative and great feature that few other laptop makers can brag about. The trackpoint and nav pads are great, too, IMO. Once you get the hang of it, you really don't need a mouse, and that's great because you don't eat up more battery power or have to worry about forgetting your mouse when traveling, if you like this feature as much as I do.

I am really digging my new T42, and it's only been a short while. I think the premium is worth every penny.

As my father told me, "buy quality, and cry once."

[none]

Well, the "building blocks" as you called them are not quite the same at all... Starting with the specs, and down to the very material used to build the laptop (the HP, like all other machines, will use ABS plastic, whereas IBM T series have magnesium composite covers and titanium reinforcement in their shells).

The very specs you mentioned on the HP have glaring downsides too... WXGA display - may be widescreen, but only an XGA -- 1024x768 and inferior clarity to SXGA and UXGA displays. 4200RPM hard drive is terribly, terribly slow. 5400RPM is standard now, and some high end T series even come with Hitachi;s 7200RPM drive, on par with desktops... That HP laptop also has a built in Intel graphics chipset (I took the liberty of looking it up, heh)... That means you can forget gaming, 3D modeling, or anything that requires graphics intensive. T42's all have dedicated ATI video cards, some of which can even run things like Doom III or Half-Life 2..

If you were to configure a ThinkPad with similar specs (or a similarly low as IBM would let you), there wouldn't be a $1000 price difference.. Sure ThinkPads come at a premium, but it's easy to see where the money is going! Premium quality...

[none]

As my father told me, "buy quality, and cry once."

Haha, that's a good quote

[CoolRunnings]

I've used and repaired a variety of laptops and continue to do so on a regular basis. It's extremely rare that I see IBM Thinkpads come in for repairs. I see Compaq, Dell, HP, and Gateway laptops very very frequently. Most of the time, it is hardware failure. I wince at the price of a Thinkpad but when I use any of these other laptops I've tried, I am always thankful for my T42 afterwards! Is it worth a $500 premium over the others? That's something only you can decide but personally, I think it is.

[T22user]

This is great stuff. I think I am hearing the old adage "you get what you pay for" as the common theme amongst the reponses. "buy quality, and cry once" is a new quote that I will keep in mind. "None", Thank you for digging into the HP website and pointing out that Intel graphics chip set would not be good for graphic intensive usage. Your comments are very useful I appreciate the layman language. I'm a sales manager for a stock brokerage and love tech, I just know it or speak it.

[beeblebrox]

Actually, most people here get completely confused with "features" of a notebook that lead to a high Thinkpad price.

You are utterly wrong!
The cost of material for a Thinkpad or a Dell/HP is not much different. It mostly is a few dollars, maximum $50-100 if you put in some 3D graphics chips and DVD burners.
The differences that make the price gap is purely volume.
If you are a Dell with much higher production output you get far better pricing advantage compared to an IBM. The margins of the OEM's (e.g. Quanta, Compal, etc.) who ACTUALLY build all the Sony, Apple, IBM, Dell are somewhere between 2-5%. So it is a throat cutting business.

Your costs of a notebook depend partly on quality (1. choice chips vs. grey market chips for instance), where most reputible firms use the more expensive parts, of course.
Second is quality insurance. You could skip/shorten burn-in and thorough testing to save costs.
Third is service. Do you charge for a 3 year full warranty or only give 1 year. It depends on the target market.

If, like IBM your market is BUSINESS, you increase cost expenditures during manufacturing for high quality. Thus will save you a lot of horrendous costs in the after-sales service. It all comes down to Total Cost of Ownership for the business.

If your market is CONSUMERS, your whole cost structure is very different. You must look for cheap price, that's the main criterion!
Service is short/gone and quality is low. But the price meets the consumer's expectation.

If you look for Compaq's or Dell's business line, they are very similar to IBM and are the main competitor. Quality and service is comparable.

The cheap Dells you see at Best Buy are mostly the Consumer Line, which you then compare to IBM's Thinkpad Business Line.
So you are comparing apples and pears...!!

[egibbs]

This is entirely subjective, but then a lot of subjective factors drive price beside the hard numbers...

Use a TP for a while, then switch to one of those cheap Dells or HPs. It's like going from a Mercedes to a Yugo. Everything about them feels cheap, from the case to the keyboard.

I just recently replaced my 5 year old T20 with a T42p.

First, you would not get 5 years use from a normal consumer line laptop - 3 years would be about the maximum. My T20 was still perfectly serviceable and I was using it as my primary 'puter with no problems.

Despite loving the T20 I shopped around. I was a bit coincerned about the Lenovo sale, etc. so i looked at HPs (I have always admired the old HP - what is now Agilent. They used to put out an awesome engineering mag called the HP Journal, but that company is long gone). I looked at Dells, Toshs, Panasonic (Toughbooks are cool, but talk about paying a premium!), Alienware, you name it. I actually bought (and then returned a week later) an Apple Powerbook G4 (great machine, too steep a learning curve). In the end I decided that nothing would satisfy me but another TP. The first time I touched my new TP I knew instantly that I had made the right choice.

Ed Gibbs

[rocketman]

For me it's just the quality feeling of the T42. I have 3 Macs and when I decided to get a notebook PC I wanted something as close in quality as the Powerbooks, the only one that foot the bill was the Thinkpad T series. When it comes to PC's the hardware is basically the same, it's the way the PC company implements that hardware and the quality of the case. The T42 does this masterfully, it has such a great quality feel to it, even better than the Powerbooks. I've checked all the notebook PC's at CompUSA, BestBuy and the like and none of them hold a candle to the T42.

[Roisin]

superiority of thinkpad keyboards is imho just hype , most notebook keyboards are OK

that rescue and recovery is just for morons, i prefer simple ghost images

hardisk parking is nice, new powerbooks have it now too

fingerprints and SafeGuard for encrypting the entire drive are cool geeky features

T/X series magnesium/titanium covers&build rule

sleek, black thinkpads will always be in style (wish they wouldnt mess it up with those [censored] centrino/xp stickers)

only firegl models are more expensive then similarily configured HP/toshiba/sony notebooks
+various discounts, if you can get EPP pricing, you can find really good deals, if not, at least buy through: http://www.ibm.com/businesscenter/visa

warranty/support is one of the best in the industry

[James314]

I may be wrong here, but i think all t42s actually have a carbon fibre reinforced chassis with no titanium at all....remember reading it in the tabook i think.

J.

[Sasha]

I had a Dell Inspirion followed by a Sony VAIO.....and I wanted to have a laptop which was lighter and had more quality built into it.......My choices, after prolonged mental torture, narrowed down to either a Thinkpad or a Fujitsu.......

For the same configuration, IBM was costlier by almost $400 as compared to Fujitsu...I bit the bullet and went for the Thinkpad.....

The deciding factors were:
Everyone who had a Thinkpad swore by them
IBM's legendary customer service
The sleek black look
The care and thought that went into the deisgn of the laptop

Having done my Masters in Binghamton, NY (the birthplace of IBM) and actually having done research as an associate in IBM's PCB assembly plant, I can testify to the rigorous tests IBM put every single component through......

Having carried back-breaking laptops, I really appreciate the lightweight, featutre-packed Thinkpad and the light power brick. My father-in-law just found out that his Compaq that he had put in checked in luggage had its top broken. Makes you appreciate the magnesium composite of the Thinkpad.....

I can go on and on.......but I think you get the point.

[IBMorBust]

superiority of thinkpad keyboards is imho just hype

Must disagree emphatically with that statement.

I have literally tried keyboards from more than a dozen manufacturers. I do not recall a single one that has a keyboard that can remotely hold a candle to the T series (or R series for that matter).

This is a qualitative superiority that's beyond legitimate debate.

I don't mean to sound like an IBM snob, especially since I just purchased my T42, but this was one of my main criteria in choosing a new laptop.

[raisindot]

I've owned several non-TP brands before I finally switched over to the TP with the 365X several years ago and then the i1200 after that. Loved the keyboard, display, ergonomics, and especially the nipple-stick instead of the touchpad.

Well, after the i1200 got too slow for my everyday use (my son now uses it), I impulsively went in for a great deal Dell was offering through my workplace that got me a new, pretty powerful 5160 for around $800.00. I got the thing and realized I had made a mistake. The thing weighed close to 9 pounds. The keyboard was horrible. The screen was large I couldn't even open on the train (where I use my laptop most of the time). Never having used a touchpad, it was absolutely frustratingly unresponsive.

After giving it a great deal of thought (and after being tempted to keep it after Dell offered to kick back an additional $200), I ended up returning it and almost immediately found a new T40 on Ebay at a great price. Best decision I've made. The keyboard alone makes it worth the price of admission, and when you add the lighter weight, smaller size, and solid quality, you really know that you're holding quality in your hands. I'm even learning to use the touchpad, which is ten times more responsive and useful than any other I've tried.

Just my .02.

Jeff in Boston

[pipspeak]

Buy a thinkpad and you'll be part of a happy community of owners that love their machines rather than simply think of them as hunks of plastic to work on. That alone should be testament to their quality.

Also buy a thinkpad for the following reasons:
1/ Size and weight... for the specs, there are very few, if any, laptops that can match the size and weight of a T-series. Any that can generally cost about the same (Sony, Toshiba). If the T-series ever goes away or changes size I will cry. Levnovo take note.
2/ Materials and build... Thinkpads don't have 3-year warranties for nothing. Both the internals and externals are built to last, and IBM stands behind that. Thes machines are designed to have long, highly-traveled lives.
3/ Keyboard... as everyone says, there is simply no better keyboard out there. Not as good as they used to be but still better than any Dell, HP, or other cheapie. I'm an author and have not found a more responsive laptop keyboard.

[jdhurst]

Like many individuals, I have to earn the greenbacks, pay tax on such earnings, then pull the cash out of my pocket to buy the laptop. IBM Laptops win every time for all the reasons stated. I never regretted buying IBM and never had to second guess myself. Just my own view.
Cheers. ... JD Hurst

[JHEM]

Like many individuals, I have to earn the greenbacks, pay tax on such earnings, then pull the cash out of my pocket to buy the laptop. IBM Laptops win every time for all the reasons stated. I never regretted buying IBM and never had to second guess myself. Just my own view.

Yes, we're a biased lot. But, I don't believe I've met a Thinkpad owner who uses his laptop to put a roof over his head and keep the wolf from the door who's ever regretted his purchase decision.

Regards,

James

[zigver]

sleek, black thinkpads will always be in style (wish they wouldnt mess it up with those [censored] centrino/xp stickers)

It takes just a couple of minutes to remove the stickers and the residue. My thinkpad is pure linux and sticker free

[BB]

I'm actually an x31 owner, but I have been a fan and user of IBM computers for 20 years, so I actually registered for the forum for the first time in order to respond.

I agree with nearly all of the previous posts, and want to underline just three points:

First: IBM laptops are solid. So solid, my institution even thinks they will stand up to four years of use by undergraduates.. (Our tech support people report that the IBM rep. even stood on his personal thinkpad, but I have never tried this myself and don't recommend it....)


Second, IBM customer support is fantastic. You know all about the warranty, so do his simple test: Point your browser to IBM.com, and look for drivers, updates and help files for the model you are interested in. They are there, they are easy to find, and they will still be there in four to five years when you are ready to put a new OS on your old machine and suddenly need specific drivers. Then, do the same with the alternatives. I once found myself helping a student replace the fried hard drive on a one-year old HP laptop while overseas on a study abroad program. The physical surgery was (only comparatively) easy, but I don't think we ever found all the proper drivers on the HP website...

finally, the keyboard is fantastic. Everyone is different, but for me this is not a trivial issue, it is a make or break question, and because the IBM keyboard is so fantastic, I would continue to buy IBM laptops even if the quality weren't so high. Maybe you don't do a lot of typing, but I am a profssional historian, and most of my computer work involves writing, sometimes for nearly an entire day. Not only does IBM have the best keyboard, but I love the trackpoint mouse--I don't have to lift my fingers from the keyboard to use it, which saves me lots of time and frustration. I just bought a full-sized trackpoint keyboard because this feature is so important to me (and because even with my desktop I do a fair amount of writing sitting in a recliner with the keyboard on my lap, not a table or tray.)
Again, there is a simple test: go to a computer store, ignore the salespeople, and try typing a full page or more of text with the brand X laptop. Then try it with an IBM.

Let us know when you decide.....


BB



[/i]

[SDNick484]

When you buy IBM, you don't do it for the components -- you do it for the service. Although Thinkpads have earned the reputation of being tough, IBM's customer service is unparallel. With my previous T21, I needed so send it in under warranty twice in 3 years; this is how it went down: I call IBM, spoke to a real, English speaking person in minutes, have a box shipped via Airborne Express to me the same day as the call, call Airborne and have them pick up the box from me later that SAME day, get the laptop back within a week with the part replaced and everything cleaned up. With that said, I am off to school to buy a new T42 today (Big Blue offers some great educational discounts); remember, nobody has ever been fired for buying IBM.

[sugo]

When you buy IBM, you don't do it for the components -- you do it for the service

I have to disagree on this one. IBM thinkpad support is (usually) top notch. However, even the best service support in the world cannot rescue a poorly designed product.

IBM has invested very significant amount of money, time and resources into various research on Thinkpads. As simple as the trackpoint looks, it went through at least four generations. Toshiba used to have trackpoint on all their laptops. I used them a lot at work and could never imagine I want a trackpoint on my laptop ... until I got my thinkpad.

If you owned a thinkpad before, you will also find that they are easy to be taken apart. Want to replace the harddrive? It can take hours to do on other brands of laptops. The fine engineering is what I personally paid my hard earned 2.5 grand for.

IBM is certainly not the only one. Panasonic and Sony also have strong and innovative design teams (doesn't mean all Vaios are good). Their beliefs and directions differ a lot though.

Having said all these, there is one point I cannot stress enough:

*** if you are a hardcore 3D gamer, look elsewhere ***

Thinkpads are not designed for high end 3D gaming. They do not offer great 3D performance / price ratio.

[thePCxp]

The first ThinkPad I used was an A21m that my school has. I was very excited when I got to use the ThinkPad. Then, my school got ThinkPad's(I was really excited when I heard the news) and I then used a G40, a R40, and a R50. When I used them, I then wanted to get a ThinkPad, and I decided to get an R51(because I also really liked the R50). I had to wait until November 2004 to order it(I ordered it on 11-1-04, and I got it on 11-9-04), I had to wait like almost the whole year of 2004(I wanted to get it so badly). I was very excited when I got it. I liked all of the features the ThinkPad's have. The keyboard feels very comfortable and it feels very solid. I haven't seen a T or X series yet but I always wanted to see and use a real T and X series.

[zigver]

I just got back from Fry's and was looking at the laptops for grins. I have to say that the exterior build quality between my T42p and anything that Sony, Fujitsu, and HP offers is not even comparable.

When you say they appear to be built from the same building blocks, have you actually picked up the various models, flipped them around, taking note of how the lid closes, noticed the quality of the hinges, noticed how sturdy the overall laptop is, etc, etc?

IMO, all other brands have poor (by IBM comparison) design and feel. I know not everyone will agree with this and may even feel compelled to flame me for saying so but I for one am completely happy with my Thinkpad. Sure, Thinkpads demand a premium but you get what you pay for.

[kev009]

IMO, all other brands have poor (by IBM comparison) design and feel. I know not everyone will agree with this and may even feel compelled to flame me for saying so but I for one am completely happy with my Thinkpad. Sure, Thinkpads demand a premium but you get what you pay for.

Amen.

[redsb3]

My, my, this certainly turned into an elitist thread. Let me just start with how I do love Thinkpads, so don't blow a gasket reading this. Build quality on T's is good, but not great like everybody makes them out to be.
They should not be up on that pedastal with god-like status that they have been given. They have their fair share of flaws and quirks like any other machine. And going to your local (insert store here) and comparing is like looking at Mercedes and Ford. There is no comparison as they are made for different markets. IBM has always been marketed as a BUSINESS machine while you are comparing it to a CONSUMER model. Some companies produce business models that are far superior to what they offer to the general public. As far as the service and support, yes it is good, but then that is what you are paying for. An extremely heavy premium IMO. Case in point. IBM recently sold the T42p, 2373-HTU, for $2299 on their website from a list price of $3399. Before the recent price drops and 20% discounts now offered, the best you could do on that model was around $2900. (Unless you are lucky enough to be able to purchase from the EPP site). That is one heck of a markup and please, they were still making money selling at $2299. They can only provide such support because they are still small. If they had reached the proportions of a Dell or HP/Compaq, then their service and support would have gone downhill like everybody else. And even with that heavy premium, they still sold it off because they weren't making enough of a profit. Pretty much tells me that you can expect a drop in quality and support as Levino begins to crank out and sell many more notebooks than IBM ever did. IBM got out from under it and Levino will have to step up production and sales to recoup their investment. I would even venture to predict that support will be moved out of the country, probably about 3 to 5 years from now. As they grow and produce more notebooks, they will go the route of every other computer company trying to cut costs and survive. It is inevitable. OK now that you have branded me a heretic, go ahead and start the flames.

[jdhurst]

You have an interesting post, and I agree with the point about comparing business and consumer models. In my experience, though, at the business end (comparing like models as well as we can), IBM ThinkPads come out on top. That is not elitist. That Lenovo may decrease quality to increase sales is the very thing that I get concerned about. ... JD Hurst

[kev009]

I do a lot of gaming, yet I still bought a t42. I could have had much better graphics for the price, but no other company makes a thin and light anywhere near the T42. Sure, IBM doesn't make the best economy or DTR notebooks, but the T42/p and X40 are best in class. There is a reason engineers, programmers and other people who rely on their notebook flock to the ThinkPad. There is a difference. In the end it comes out to how much money you have to spend, what features you need and what you expect for build quality. You are talking to a pretty biased crowd since we all made the ThinkPad choice, but I shopped around and couldn't find anything comprable to my T42.

[zzyss]

Legends of ThinkPad in case there isn't enough ThinkPad love in this thread.

I just wanted to point out a few more things

• ThinkPads *do* use the Integrated Intel video chipsets like the other brands. Only the higher end models have ATI graphics.
• ThinkPads come with an international warranty, which is a boon if you don't live in the US and you buy from Bill, taking advantage of currency differences.
• Because of the "corporate" design mentality, ThinkPads tend to come with what you need, not what you want - there is a subtle difference. For example, you could get a laptop with a 17" widescreen, but as some people discover, this seriously impacts on its portability and size. Therefore, that is the most likely reason why you won't see a widescreen format in the T Series.
  ThinkPads are NOT for watching movies, although it is entirely capable of doing so if you wanted to. See? Your need to watch movies is satisfied, but your want to have it in widescreen is not. But you haven't lost anything.

[JHEM]

[*]ThinkPads *do* use the Integrated Intel video chipsets like the other brands. Only the higher end models have ATI graphics.

Sorry, but this simply isn't true. I can't even think of a Thinkpad model that used integrated video, even among the antiques and the Acer built 3XX series machines.

The original 750 released in 1993 came with 1MB of dedicated video memory on a Western Digital WD90C24 video chipset.

Regards,

James

[trikster2]

The T43's have integrated Intel graphics

R40E has the ATI RADEON IGP 330M

R series have Intel Extreme Graphics2