Outrageous (lack of) Support experience

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Schmendrick · #1 Post by **Schmendrick** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:25 pm

After I bought my T42p with the 9 cell battery last June, I was thrilled by the fact that I got over seven hours use on a single charge (essentially just typing code, and checking and replying to email using wifi in airports).

This performance has steadily degraded to the point where I'm only able to get 2.5 hours!

I finally decided that I couldn't put up with this any longer (the original spec. said "up to" 6.4 Hrs, and a footnote said the 9 cell models all achieved "at least" this amount of time on the Ziff Davis Bus. Winstone Battery rundown test).

So I called Tech Support thinking it would be a simple thing to get the battery replaced under warranty (I've never had to send the machine in or ask for any kind of warranty service previously). After spending 20 min. on hold and another 20 minutes waiting for the support rep. to do what she had to do, she came back on the line and informed me that my experience with the battery was "normal" and I couldn't get the battery replaced under warranty!!!!! Needless to say, I ceased being Mr. Friendly at that point and insisted on speaking with a supervisor.

I got a call from the supervisor the next day and he spewed the same crap! I couldn't believe how the guy played Philadelphia Lawyer, hiding behind the words "up to" used in the original spec documents. After I asked him for his name for the letter I intended to write, he grudgingly agreed to send me a replacement battery, though he added that I shouldn't get my hopes up as it would likely be a refurb. with performance similar to the defective part I sought to replace!

I'll report back and let you know how stirring the pot in their Customer Service dept. turned out. I was sooo disappointed that IBM would allow their brand capital to be frittered away in such a cavalier fashion. I love my TPad but I must now admit that I'm experiencing some dissonance over the premium every TPad owner pays for IBM's famous support.

dvorak · #2 Post by **dvorak** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:06 pm

Well, there are always grumpy employees, everywhere, who've had a bad day. After all, don't worry about the people, care about the facts:
If your battery has less than 60-70% of max battery charge, then you're qualified for a change. (Especially if the Battery Maximiser also notes that its max charge is low).

How many cycles does the battery have, what's the max capacity and since when are you using it?
You can check that from the Battery Maximiser, when clicking on the percent icon, click on Battery Information.

kev009 · #3 Post by **kev009** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:22 pm

I hate to say it but they are probably right. To put it bluntly, current battery technology flat out sucks. Read up on the forum on the care and treatment of a Li-Ion battery as you are probably treating it roughly (cycling too deep, heat, etc).

Schmendrick · #4 Post by **Schmendrick** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:56 pm

Grumpy employees? You're missing the point -- this is policy.

From 6.4 hours to 2.5 hours and it's my fault? Give your head a shake! The battery is covered by a 1 year warranty and I'm supposed to eat that? Treating it roughly, huh? Yeah, I'm dropping it out of airplanes and using it as a puck in street hockey tournaments! Moron.

How's that for blunt, you passive-aggressive twit!

#5 Post by **RonS** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:20 am

Wow... Suddenly, all the love just left the room.

#6 Post by **K. Eng** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:28 am

Whoa just a second there...

Rechargeable batteries will always degrade after a lot of uses, and Lithium Ion batteries are no exception. It's not your fault - it's the nature of the technology.

I think IBM will replace a battery if the indicator in the Battery Maximizer software indicates that the health level is 'red' or critical while within the warranty period.

Schmendrick wrote:Grumpy employees? You're missing the point -- this is policy.

From 6.4 hours to 2.5 hours and it's my fault? Give your head a shake! The battery is covered by a 1 year warranty and I'm supposed to eat that? Treating it roughly, huh? Yeah, I'm dropping it out of airplanes and using it as a puck in street hockey tournaments! Moron.

How's that for blunt, you passive-aggressive twit!

syhead · #7 Post by **syhead** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:49 am

you could make your point by telling us how many cycles and when did you buy your laptop... if you tell us that it's been just a few months and a small number of cycles I'm sure no one will question your point...

good luck anyways

Schmendrick · #8 Post by **Schmendrick** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:53 am

You're right about batteries in general.

If mine lasted for say, 5.5 hours and I whined about wanting it replaced on warranty, I could understand some reluctance. But 2.5?

#9 Post by **BillMorrow** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:06 am

Schmendrick wrote:You're right about batteries in general.

If mine lasted for say, 5.5 hours and I whined about wanting it replaced on warranty, I could understand some reluctance. But 2.5?

so..!

uhmm, what is the number of charge cycles..?
what is the capacity when fully charged..?

the battery guage has all sorts of good info including the start date and so forth..

none · #10 Post by **none** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:28 am

Schmendrick wrote:Grumpy employees? You're missing the point -- this is policy.

From 6.4 hours to 2.5 hours and it's my fault? Give your head a shake! The battery is covered by a 1 year warranty and I'm supposed to eat that? Treating it roughly, huh? Yeah, I'm dropping it out of airplanes and using it as a puck in street hockey tournaments! Moron.

How's that for blunt, you passive-aggressive twit!

From reading your posts, it really seems to me you're here to bash IBM support and prove your case against it, rather than try to understand or resolve your actual battery problem.

You should do a little bit of research before flaming people who are just trying to help you... What kind of a stupid remark is that about dropping batteries out of a plane? Does treating a car roughly mean getting it totally wrecked? Does treating your clothes roughly mean you punch holes in them with scissors?? What was meant by treating it roughly, is treating it without proper care.

Read everything that has alreay been said, it has to do with heat, number of cycles, how far you discharge the battery before you charge it again, etc... There are some things that you'd never guess are bad for batteries unless someone tells you. For example, if you have your machine plugged in to the power with the battery inside for very long periods of time, that is damaging to the battery...

I really wouldn't insult anyone on this forum if I were you... This place has got to have the most friendly and knowledgeble user base I have ever seen on a forum... I wouldn't want to turn everyone against me and lose access to such a great resource for your ThinkPad problems...

James314 · #11 Post by **James314** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:40 am

yep, none is right, there is no excuse for treating people who are trying to help you like that, if all the people in this forum had schmendricks outlook it would be like a primary school playground.

Jamin James.

Leon · #12 Post by **Leon** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:44 pm

This Forum has a great tolerance for (and in fact encourages) dissenting/varied opinions. However, personal attacks will NOT be tolerated.

Schmendrick, although you are a recent member with few posts, you appear to be a smart and well spoken individual. Perhaps you want to comment on your response to kev009? My guess is you were having a frustrating day, and did not "preview and think before you posted".

Schmendrick wrote:Grumpy employees? You're missing the point -- this is policy.

From 6.4 hours to 2.5 hours and it's my fault? Give your head a shake! The battery is covered by a 1 year warranty and I'm supposed to eat that? Treating it roughly, huh? Yeah, I'm dropping it out of airplanes and using it as a puck in street hockey tournaments! Moron.

How's that for blunt, you passive-aggressive twit!

Schmendrick · #13 Post by **Schmendrick** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:03 pm

Read up on the forum on the care and treatment of a Li-Ion battery as you are probably treating it roughly

Trying to _help_ me? Oh, stupid me, that's what that was!? This is my 6th notebook -- I know how to treat batteries. This brand of "help" I can do without.

it really seems to me you're here to bash IBM support and prove your case against it, rather than try to understand or resolve your actual battery problem.

My account is factual. Draw your own conclusion. As for understanding my battery problem, it's quite simple -- it lasts nowhere near as long as the spec. claims. Which part of that is unclear to you?

What kind of a stupid remark is that about dropping batteries out of a plane?

Like begets like.

Read everything that has alreay been said, it has to do with heat, number of cycles, how far you discharge the battery before you charge it again, etc...

That's what ticked me off in the first place. You make no allowance for the possibility that the battery is just plain defective.

I really wouldn't insult anyone on this forum if I were you... This place has got to have the most friendly...

So I need to be a door mat and stoically digest insults? If blaming the victim is your idea of friendly...

Leon · #14 Post by **Leon** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:14 pm

Disagreeing with what others said is no problem. "What" you said is not in question. "How" you said it is. I would submit (and hope) that if you were responding to an email from someone at your school or work that you would have expressed yourself differently. So why not here?

MadeInJapan · #15 Post by **MadeInJapan** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:20 pm

Okay then... As per what Morrow asked:
1. How many charging cycles?
2. What does the guage say when fully charged?

I believe people here were trying to understand your situation more clearly in order to respond in a more helpful manner.

By the way, did you get the replacement battery yet? If so, how was it in comparison to your old one?

Schmendrick · #16 Post by **Schmendrick** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:28 pm

Leon:
Thank you for extending an olive branch. Though I do regret using the words "moron" and "twit", I will not apologize for my angry response to a post that amounted to nothing more than "tough luck, buddy, it's your own [censored] fault". If that means I'm not welcome here, I'll trundle off sans remorse.

Leon wrote:This Forum has a great tolerance for (and in fact encourages) dissenting/varied opinions. However, personal attacks will NOT be tolerated.

Schmendrick, although you are a recent member with few posts, you appear to be a smart and well spoken individual. Perhaps you want to comment on your response to kev009? My guess is you were having a frustrating day, and did not "preview and think before you posted".

Schmendrick wrote:Grumpy employees? You're missing the point -- this is policy.

From 6.4 hours to 2.5 hours and it's my fault? Give your head a shake! The battery is covered by a 1 year warranty and I'm supposed to eat that? Treating it roughly, huh? Yeah, I'm dropping it out of airplanes and using it as a puck in street hockey tournaments! Moron.

How's that for blunt, you passive-aggressive twit!

Schmendrick · #17 Post by **Schmendrick** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:39 pm

Leon wrote:Disagreeing with what others said is no problem. "What" you said is not in question. "How" you said it is. I would submit (and hope) that if you were responding to an email from someone at your school or work that you would have expressed yourself differently. So why not here?

Leon:
The fact of the matter is, when confronted with a similar affront, I would respond similarly face to face, never mind by email. It's been my experience that as soon as you allow one person to get away with treating you poorly, it's not long before you become everyone's favorite door mat.

Schmendrick · #18 Post by **Schmendrick** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:47 pm

MadeInJapan wrote:Okay then... As per what Morrow asked:
1. How many charging cycles?
2. What does the guage say when fully charged?

I believe people here were trying to understand your situation more clearly in order to respond in a more helpful manner.

By the way, did you get the replacement battery yet? If so, how was it in comparison to your old one?

I just finished doing a clean install of XPP, per UCI_MECH's excellent guide. I don't have the battery maximizer installed at present -- further, I left the machine at my office downtown last night. I'm going there later to finish installing W2K3 on my server. I should be able to install the s/w at that time and let you know. Thanks for your interest.

mattfromomaha · #19 Post by **mattfromomaha** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:49 pm

And the Million Dollar Question.....

....How many charge cycles and what is the charged capacity on the battery?

Schmendrick · #20 Post by **Schmendrick** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:59 pm

mattfromomaha wrote:And the Million Dollar Question.....

....How many charge cycles and what is the charged capacity on the battery?

Funny how you knowledgable people insist this is the way to decide the matter when IBM Support didn't even bother to ask before declaring that I didn't qualify for warranty replacement.

Further, the warranty states 1 year, without any mention of charge cycles.

#21 Post by **JaneL** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:00 pm

>Leon:
The fact of the matter is, when confronted with a similar affront, I would respond similarly face to face, never mind by email. It's been my experience that as soon as you allow one person to get away with treating you poorly, it's not long before you become everyone's favorite door mat.
>

A little advice - some of us bite back.

Schmendrick · #22 Post by **Schmendrick** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:03 pm

nonny wrote:>Leon:
The fact of the matter is, when confronted with a similar affront, I would respond similarly face to face, never mind by email. It's been my experience that as soon as you allow one person to get away with treating you poorly, it's not long before you become everyone's favorite door mat.
>

A little advice - some of us bite back.

Fine. Funny how I'm being persecuted for doing just that. Don't bite me in the first place and we'll get along just fine.

tanstaafl · #23 Post by **tanstaafl** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:04 pm

Well, I think that there are a bunch of separate issues floating around here. (I am writing this response to be as helpful to as many people as possible, including folks such as me who do a lot of reading but not a lot of posting on these forums. This post is not meant for any particular poster or posters.)

1. When is a Thinkpad owner entitled to a replacement battery?
(Please correct me if I am mistaken.) I think that the policy is: if one is within the battery warranty period (usually 1 year from original purchase data) and the Thinkpad's "Battery Maximizer" software deems the "battery health" to be "poor" then a new battery is warranted. (I can check the battery health on my T41 by (i) clicking on the "Battery MaxMiser Gauge" icon on the Windows Taskabr until a menu appears; (ii) Clicking the "battery information" selection from the menu until a window appears; (iii) Clicking the "battery health" button in the window.)

2. Was Schmendrick given appropriate treatment by IBM support?
From his description, it sounds like "no" may be the answer.

3. Are there ways to prolong good use out of lithium ion batteries?
Yes. There are lots of other posts about this topic, but the most important thing is to avoid unnecessary deep discharges. For example, it is not wise to run on battery power just for the heck of it when AC power is easily available. (Exception: an occasional deep discharge will help the battery's electronic circuitry to better estimate battery health; still, physically the chemicals in the battery are rendered less effective with each deep discharge).

3. Should we try to be civil in our forum posts?
Yes. This can be more difficult than one thinks, because each person interprets a given post differently. I think we have all written a post or sent an email that we regret later. I have found that apologizing is the best course of action, and people tend to forgive.

Regards,
Mike

mattfromomaha · #24 Post by **mattfromomaha** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:08 pm

Thank you, Mike. Very eloquently put.

Schmendrick, if for nothing more than satisfying our ongoing curiousity, would you kindly post the information from your Battery MaxiMizer about the cycles and charge capacity? I don't have my ThinkPad with me to check how to obtain the information, but Mike was kind enough to list the steps.

Leon · #25 Post by **Leon** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:14 pm

he has his machine at work, and will report later today (see post earlier)....

Mike, welcome to our forum! Please add location and other pertinent information to your profile. Not required, but appreciated!

#26 Post by **JaneL** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:27 pm

>Fine. Funny how I'm being persecuted for doing just that.
>

Persecuted? How... droll...

I haven't really seen that. What I have seen is a number of knowledgeable people (including the forum owner and several moderators) ask you to give them some information that will help them help you. You may not like the way they asked or their opinions, but considering the diverse group of people here, what did you expect? Not all of us subscribe to Leon's Way. (aside to JHEM - Where is Bruce when I need him???)

Now, when you have your machine in front of you, please let us know the answers to:

1. How many charging cycles?
2. What does the gauge say when fully charged?

Re IBM's support, sometimes you're the bug, and sometimes you're the windshield. No organization is perfect, and screw-ups will happen. You may end up having to slap them around a little, but in the end, they'll make it right if it's a real problem (and sometimes when it's not).

JHEM · #27 Post by **JHEM** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:28 pm

tanstaafl wrote:2. Was Schmendrick given appropriate treatment by IBM support?

The answer is a resounding NO, but we still need a bit more info before we can conjure up ways for him and others to reach the correct person in future to prevent these misunderstandings.

As the Devil's Advocate (my favorite role!), I would argue that Schmendrick replied to Kev009 in kind!

But, we're PAST all that now, right?

For the record, as long as the Battery Health Gauge remains Green, IBM will be reluctant to replace a battery regardless of it's remaining duration. It can happen that you'll get a replacement, but it really depends on the height of the tide and the phase of the moon. I got a replacement for my original 6 cell battery after only 6 months of use, but it took a fair bit of wheedling and talking on my behalf.

If the gauge reports Yellow, they will grudgingly replace the battery after a bit, but only a bit, of prodding. If the gauge is Red, it's been my experience that they will replace the battery without argument. All of the foregoing of course only applies if the battery is still under warranty.

Regards,

James

Schmendrick · #28 Post by **Schmendrick** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:36 pm

[quote="nonny"]>Fine. Funny how I'm being persecuted for doing just that.
>

Persecuted? How... droll...

Give me another word to describe your asinine remark and I'll gladly use that.

Schmendrick · #29 Post by **Schmendrick** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:41 pm

JHEM wrote:
tanstaafl wrote:2. Was Schmendrick given appropriate treatment by IBM support?
The answer is a resounding YES,

James, had you been on my end of the conversation, you would think differently. As I mentioned, the rep didn't even ask about the battery maximizer.

mattfromomaha · #30 Post by **mattfromomaha** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:42 pm

Perhaps it would be most constructive that everyone suspend further replies to this topic until Schmendrick is able to post the information on the charging cycles/capacity. Arguing is certainly not going to get us anywhere.

One you are able to post the the informatio, Schmendrick, we will be able to compare your battery condition to that of our own.

Outrageous (lack of) Support experience

Outrageous (lack of) Support experience

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