T430F build with notes with benchmark and comparison

[tdot]

Well, I finally completed my build - after hours of BIOS diving and a fresh re-install, I'm ready to use it as my work machine! I've decided to call it a T430F, as it's essentially completely maxed out in every way a T430 can be (if I'm missing anything let me know!)



Some specs:

FHD mod with a B140HAN01.2
Classic T420 keyboard (this one was an NMB)
NVS 5400M
i7-3840QM with Delta fan (yes, it came with a Delta with discreet cooler, so I left it)
16 GB DDR3L 1866 (I would have liked 2133, but it's double the price)
Samsung Evo 860 512 GB
Intel Wireless AC 7260
Fully unlocked BIOS (this thing is absolutely insane, with 999+ options)

So, first I'll mention some build notes, and then I'll talk about why I built it with some benchmarking/comparing to what I'm replacing.

1) Display
So, for the display mod, I bought one of the standard 'behind-the-LCD' kits from e-qstore on eBay. These kits do work perfectly fine with no flickering, but they DO slightly press up against the screen and cause some back light bleed. I see that the newer kits are designed to be installed under the keyboard - I think this is a FAR better location, and I'd suggest if getting a newer kit you go for one of these. While the back light bleed isn't 'extreme' and isn't really noticeable under normal use, with a fully black screen it is quite noticeable. It doesn't really bother me though. I did try to space the screen a little, with tiny metal washers between the screen and the panel, though it had little effect. It also seems to 'push up' a little against the outer display frame this way as well. Also, I bought a B140HAN01.2 since they were available locally. From the data sheets, it seems that the B140HAN01.3 is VERY SLIGHTLY thinner - this may or may not have had an impact on the backlight bleed. Regardless, if I was doing it again (and had known about it), I would have insisted on an under the keyboard board.

2) BIOS mods
For this one, I followed "The Definitive T430 Modding Guide" published by a very nice person on the internet. I found someone to build the BIOS for me over at bios-mods, and I already had flash programmers from other things I've done, so this wasn't something too new for me. However, the BIOS is at the BOTTOM of the laptop, which means you need to completely remove the motherboard from the machine to get to the IC (though you can keep it in the 'skeleton', still takes a while). On top of unlocking AES and removing the whitelist for cards, it opens up the advanced BIOS menu which has MANY settings. Most of these, I hardly understand. I spent hours playing around with these, and this is what I 'came up with'.

- Enable most disabled ACPI features
- Enable most disabled sensors
- Enable DPTF (Dynamic Platform and Thermal Framework - I had to read a lot about this one. Some people say it thermal limits their laptops too soon. Turning it on, seems to create some thermal 'lag' in some places, but seems to give Windows more control over how the CPU is clocking. At the end of the day I left it on, as it seems to run slightly cooler, and I threw a 45 watt CPU into a 35 watt machine)
- Turn the CPU/iGPU turbo current limits down SLIGHTLY and drop the max watt draw a little (I used 36 watt long term 43 watt short term)
- Drop the fan minimum point way down (to 31C) and the high point way up (to 63C). This unit has the delta fan, so until it gets >75% it's almost inaudible anyway.

I have no idea what most of these REALLY do, so it was mostly experimentation.

3) Thermals
This isn't really anything to do, but I think the system runs quite reasonably. With the settings above, I get around 39/40C at idle. During most tasks, CPU power is used in short burts - i.e. loading Visual Studio and two instances of WebStorm will temporarily peak the CPU ~70C and it will drop. Doing things like watching FHD YouTube video will keep it somewhere around ~58C. BEFORE my BIOS modifications, I decided to stress test it with a game (to stress both the NVIDIA and CPU), which was the X-Com remake at FULL settings, windowed at 1600x900. In this case, the CPU WILL get pretty close to max - it will go over 100, but I haven't seen it hit MAX (which is 105 for the 3840qm). It hovers somewhere between 98-103C. AFTER my BIOS modifications, it seems to throttle itself much earlier. It actually doesn't run much worse either - there is an occasional lag (that I didn't notice previously), but it won't exceed 100C. It sometimes peaks up to ~98C, and then drops back down to/hovers around ~91C. I think this is reasonable for what I put in it.

4) Battery
I almost forgot about this one. I wasted HOURS of my time trying to figure out what was wrong with the laptop. There were some random crashes, sometimes, when the Nvidia was loaded, and eventually with X-Com I caused the system to fully shut off. After measuring the draw from the CPU, and realizing it was only at ~28 watts when the system completely shut off, I suspected a different culprit.
As of yet, I'm not going to blame the knockoff. I bought a knockoff 6 cell T430 battery by accident - I bought it on eBay as it was in my city and priced reasonably, and didn't realize it wasn't real until after I got it. To be fair, the auction never said GENUINE, and if I had looked at the label more closely ... Anyway, it was the cause of the random crashing/shutdowns. After putting in the 9 cell battery that came with the machine, it has run fine ever since. At this point, I don't want to blame it being a knockoff, as it could be 6 cell vs 9 cell, BUT, considering the system was shutting off at <30 watt CPU draw, which is less than the laptop is actually spec'd for, I have a feeling the battery being a knockoff is the issue rather than it being a 6 cell. I will eventually confirm this ...

5) Keyboard
Well, I actually screwed this one up, TWICE. I ended up buying a new palmrest, since my first attempt cut/scratched it all up.
My second attempt, I didn't realize that the keyboard does NOT slide into the palmrest, there are actually latches on the magnesium frame that the keyboard notches slide into. Luckily, I was very careful this time with the dremel, and didn't produce much noticeable while sanding down the areas on the palmrest where I assumed the keyboard lached into. I was trying to avoid sanding down the tabs on the keyboard - this is unavoidable if you want the keyboard to slide in/be removed as designed.
Basically there are two challenges to get this keyboard mounting 'as designed'. The first being the tabs are too tall - they need to be sanded down. The second being that the 'beveled area' with the Think/power button has two notches at the left and right that extend to the back of the keyboard, while the T430 keyboard does not. These are required so that the keyboard can 'slide' into the back of the palmrest/casing so that the tabs can be pushed down into/slide into the slots. CAREFULLY dremelling out maybe half a CM where the keyboard is rasied there will permit sliding the keyboard back, and having it slide back into the notches when sanded down.

I didn't do a perfect job, but it looks pretty close (close enough) I think. The gap is 'reasonable', and this lets you service/treat the keyboard as one normally would. (Yes, it got a little scratched)



Now, lets do a little comparison!

The main reason I'm building this is that I'm a software developer and my company gave me a MacBook Pro. I cannot stand this thing. This thing is one of the worst designed computer I've ever used. Lets look at one of the primary reasons why, before I even get into some comparisons.



The keyboard on this MacBook Pro (including the touchbar), is IMO, completely unusable. The key travel is like 0.05mm. It feels like you're tapping on a sheet of plastic. They might as well have just made the entire surface a touch screen. The touch bar of course, is even worse. I need to be able to keep my fingers on the function keys while debugging/viewing to issue commands, HOW do you even do that on a touch bar?

Well, here was my temporary solution (next to the T430F!)



For anyone forced to use one of these, SK-8845 fits AMAZINGLY well on a 15 inch MacBook Pro. The back feet actually 'lock' into the touchbar area (and can't trigger the touchbar) and the front feet just clear the keys. Anyway ...

Issue #1: This thing gets HOT. You'd think sticking a 3840QM into a T430 would be hotter. NOPE! With its i7-7700HQ, this MacBook Pro IDLES at around 55C. Imagine when it's working. Lets also include the fact that this thing is an all aluminum body - giving it a workout, and the rear of the laptop (around the touchbar) can heat up to nearly 50C! It almost HURTS to touch it. The CPU will max out at less heat than the T430 (though it will start to accumulate across the body and increase), but at least the T430 doesn't have direct-to-hand transfer.

Issue #2: It doesn't sleep properly. I don't even know what to say here. About 1/2 the time I close it and throw it in my bag without checking, when I take it out, the laptop (BODY) is at about 80C and is completely shut down and in a thermal shutdown state. I give up.

Issue #3: Under Windows, the GPU is always corrupting the display, and displaying things corrupted.

Issue #4: It only has USB-C. 4 ports of USB-C. I don't mind USB-C - I think it's a good idea, but is NOT a replacement for normal USB. Therefore, one USB to USB-C dongle has completely cracked off, and one actually cracked the aluminum on the side of the mac where the port is. This is with normal office use. Plus, everyone who runs multiple monitors (not me) has issues with the USB-C connecting reliably. Again, power/data over the same plug sounds like a good idea, being able to share with a phone, sounds like a good idea, but what am I supposed to do with my mice and portable HDD and flash drives?

Admittedly, it does have a nicer screen and better sound than any laptop I've seen before. If only I really cared about that ... or if only Lenovo would copy the only good thing about this laptop, a 16:10 display.

Well, now lets see how close T430F that I built for <$700USD compares with MacBook Pro that sells for $2,399 USD

T430 benchmark


MacBook Pro benchmark


Not too bad, actually

In terms of CPU speed, the MacBook pro isn't even 1% faster. The RAM is within 5%. Considering it's almost 4 times the price ...

Admittedly yes, the graphics are 3 times faster in the MacBook - but I expected that being almost 5 years newer. Unless you're playing games, I'm not sure this matters so much. What did surprise me however, is that the SSD in the MacBook Pro is actually 3 times! faster than the Evo 860 in the T430. I didn't think that would be nearly as extreme. My guess is, the Evo 860 is being limited by the SATA3 speeds in the T430, and that the Mac is using a high speed NVMe interface.

At the end of the day, I'm pretty happy how my T430F turned out! I would benchmark it against the T25, but I'm assuming it would win in CPU/RAM speed and lose in everything else. Now if I can convince someone to let me throw this MacBook out a window for having been forced to use it so long ...

[dr_st]

Thank you for your detailed write-up. I am glad you get to enjoy this amazing maxed-out system. As I user of a similar-yet-different modded T430s I can totally appreciate the magic of these machines.

6-cell vs 9-cell absolutely should not make any difference on stability, so your other battery is definitely bad. Whether it's because it's a knock-off or just bad luck, I don't know.

On my modded T430s (which was done by plympton using the same sand-off method, the keyboard also does not look like it's a perfect fit, but it is close enough and fits just fine. I stuffed an old plastic card (credit card-sized) under it to improve the support, but this is something I had to do with many Thinkpad keyboards.

It is interesting what you say about the Macbook, and it's atrocious keyboard. Interestingly, many Macbook fans absolutely love the keyboard. Just goes to show how people can have completely different preferences and priorities. I am also not a fan of aluminum bodies. They are cool (even cold) at first, but as the laptop heats up, so do they, and they transfer the heat to the user.

As for the issues in Windows - it has always been my position that Macbooks are best used with MacOS. Apple's strength is in very fine integration between all its hardware, software and firmware components. Take away one of them, and it's no longer as good. But I am surprised that it has sleep issues under MacOS as well (if I understood you correctly).

USB-C... well, it's a much better port than USB-A, and I do hope that eventually it will completely supersede it. USB-C is what allows versatile connectivity with slim laptops, but the transition period is always had, since we all have so much USB-A legacy devices around. It should get better with time. Already there are plenty of USB-C flash drives (some have dual USB-A and USB-C connectors even), and hopefully soon all gadgets will follow suit.

[tdot]

Thank you for your detailed write-up. I am glad you get to enjoy this amazing maxed-out system. As I user of a similar-yet-different modded T430s I can totally appreciate the magic of these machines.

6-cell vs 9-cell absolutely should not make any difference on stability, so your other battery is definitely bad. Whether it's because it's a knock-off or just bad luck, I don't know.

On my modded T430s (which was done by plympton using the same sand-off method, the keyboard also does not look like it's a perfect fit, but it is close enough and fits just fine. I stuffed an old plastic card (credit card-sized) under it to improve the support, but this is something I had to do with many Thinkpad keyboards.

It is interesting what you say about the Macbook, and it's atrocious keyboard. Interestingly, many Macbook fans absolutely love the keyboard. Just goes to show how people can have completely different preferences and priorities. I am also not a fan of aluminum bodies. They are cool (even cold) at first, but as the laptop heats up, so do they, and they transfer the heat to the user.

As for the issues in Windows - it has always been my position that Macbooks are best used with MacOS. Apple's strength is in very fine integration between all its hardware, software and firmware components. Take away one of them, and it's no longer as good. But I am surprised that it has sleep issues under MacOS as well (if I understood you correctly).

USB-C... well, it's a much better port than USB-A, and I do hope that eventually it will completely supersede it. USB-C is what allows versatile connectivity with slim laptops, but the transition period is always had, since we all have so much USB-A legacy devices around. It should get better with time. Already there are plenty of USB-C flash drives (some have dual USB-A and USB-C connectors even), and hopefully soon all gadgets will follow suit.

I was considering the T430s and the T420 as well, but I really wanted to push the max performance I could out of a classic keyboard (more or less because I was curious what would happen). I had also considered the W530 as well, but the smaller size was more appealing. As far as I know, the CPU isn't replaceable on the T430s? Realistically, the 3540m that came in the system (I believe the T430s has a 3520M?) isn't a bad chip. Considering its mostly the core count, the difference while not pushing multi-tasking isn't even noticeable. For Windows startup/shutdown/use and browsing or even gaming (some 2011 titles) the difference wasn't even noticeable. Torturing it with X-Com did show a difference between them, but this isn't the system I'd pick for high-performance 3D gaming anyway.

As for the battery, I didn't think so. The knockoff was actually 'new' and 'sealed' (for what that's worth for a knockoff). The only reason I assumed it could be 'because of 6 cell' was that the system would only shut off entirely when the GPU was drawing max (I assume, I can't get a reading for that) and the CPU hit 29-30 watts. But again, 30 watts from the CPU is within the specs of the T430, so I assume a working 6 cell battery should be able to power that. I wonder if I pulled it apart, if some of the cells would be full of sand ...

As for the keyboard, there are a bunch of Macbook fans at my office. When I complain about how bad the keyboard is, the response I usually get is 'the previous MacBooks were a lot better'. Apparently the last models had somewhat of a normal chiclet keyboard - with the introduction of the touch-bar model they just dropped the keys to practically no travel at all. Actually, two people already had keyboard 'defects' with these (if you Google it, it seems to be a common problem - if you get anything in the keys, they stop working).

As for the issues, you're probably right. That's what other people tell me, and I'm not going to argue that. I've been using Windows all my life, and I'm not going to stop now. I tried using MacOS at first (it lasted about a day), but the concepts make absolutely no sense to me. And no, you did misunderstand - the sleep issues are only under Windows (as far as I know). Also, the only people who have USB-C to Display issues (random disconnect, have to connect 3 times to get it working) are running Windows also. I'm sure it gives a better experience on MacOS - but for Windows, I'd stay far away from these.

As for USB-C, I mostly agree - except for a few things. They seem to be extremely loose (or this is just on the Mac, on my T25 the connectors seem to actually snap in solidly) and they'll fall out easily by banging them/knocking them, especially being on a long dongle. Also, cheap adapters are extremely frail, and putting more than 1 lbs of pressure on them will rip the connector right off the body. They haven't been able to survive light use with me, so I very much doubt they'd survive any rugged usage. I like the idea of USB-C - but I don't think a laptop should exclude ALL other connectors - plus I hate having to carry around dongles. Even when everything is USB-C (will they even ever bother making USB-C mice?) that still won't help HDMI/DisplayPort connections - unless all monitors go to USB-C as well. I have a feeling this will realistically never happen, as at home I have a bunch of electrical test equipment (oscilloscopes, bench supplies, etc) that have standard USB. I'm not sure that items such as these will realistically ever change for the foreseeable future. Is USB-C going to eventually make its way to TVs as well, or are they going to remain HDMI? I think they're at least 10 years too early to remove all other connections from a laptop ...

On the connector side, I think the T25 was just perfect. If you really still have a projector with VGA and no HDMI, the fault doesn't lie with Lenovo ... (any office I've worked, for the last 4 years, all projectors have had HDMI)

[dr_st]

I was considering the T430s and the T420 as well, but I really wanted to push the max performance I could out of a classic keyboard (more or less because I was curious what would happen). I had also considered the W530 as well, but the smaller size was more appealing. As far as I know, the CPU isn't replaceable on the T430s?

I totally understand your choice, and yes, the CPU on the slim-T models is soldered, just like on the X series.

Actually, two people already had keyboard 'defects' with these (if you Google it, it seems to be a common problem - if you get anything in the keys, they stop working).

Yes, I read about that as well, and apparently Apple has already revised the keyboard by putting a very thin membrane between the keycap and the mechanism, to prevent this from happening. I still can't imagine I would enjoy using that keyboard.

And no, you did misunderstand - the sleep issues are only under Windows (as far as I know). Also, the only people who have USB-C to Display issues (random disconnect, have to connect 3 times to get it working) are running Windows also. I'm sure it gives a better experience on MacOS - but for Windows, I'd stay far away from these.

In that case, yes, all those issues are in line with what I'd expect from a Mac running Windows.

As for USB-C, I mostly agree - except for a few things. They seem to be extremely loose (or this is just on the Mac, on my T25 the connectors seem to actually snap in solidly) and they'll fall out easily by banging them/knocking them, especially being on a long dongle. Also, cheap adapters are extremely frail, and putting more than 1 lbs of pressure on them will rip the connector right off the body. They haven't been able to survive light use with me, so I very much doubt they'd survive any rugged usage.

That's interesting. I have not had plenty of experience with USB-C (the connectors on the Thinkpad 25 and X1 Carbon and the USB-C dock that I have been using seem solid, also consistent with your experience). When comparing USB-C to micro-USB (which is a valid comparison in the realm of phones/tablets), I found that USB-C cables are generally much more solid and tend to disconnect less; or to be more precise - I have seen much much more garbage micro-USB connectors than garbage USB-C connectors, so it seems to me that the average USB-C cable will have higher manufacturing quality, but that does not mean there can be no outliers. Your experience certainly suggests that not all is rosy in USB-C connector world, at least when comparing to USB-A...

I like the idea of USB-C - but I don't think a laptop should exclude ALL other connectors

Well, originally, that was the entire point behind USB-C (actually, behind Thunderbolt). That was Apple's vision from the beginning, so they could make their ultra-thin Macbooks with just one slim connector. Originally it was supposed to look like USB-A (I don't think it ever made to production), then like miniDP (which existed for a few generations, including, e.g., on my T430s), and eventually settled to USB-C (which by then became a standard of its own, not necessarily coupled with Thunderbolt). The latter one seems like it might actually stay.

I think they're at least 10 years too early to remove all other connections from a laptop ...

Not disagreeing with you. Old connectors typically do take a very long time to die out...

On the connector side, I think the T25 was just perfect. If you really still have a projector with VGA and no HDMI, the fault doesn't lie with Lenovo ... (any office I've worked, for the last 4 years, all projectors have had HDMI)

Can't agree more. Besides, Lenovo has HDMI-to-VGA adapter cables. I received one with the X1 Carbon (not sure if it's part of the standard package or not), and although I did not receive one with the Thinkpad 25, I can't see why it wouldn't work with it.

[CrazyTPFan]

This is the most beastly T430 I've ever seen! . I just got myself a T440p and it's awesome!

[tdot]

This is the most beastly T430 I've ever seen! If I had the money I would get a T430 and go all out on it. But, My R400 serves me perfectly well and this winter I plan to do some major upgrades to it .

Thanks! That was the goal

After having used it for 2 weeks now, I feel like the size of it is absolutely perfect for working on the go (i.e. train to downtown). I'm starting to think for an actual work machine, a bigger screen would have been nicer - however, there's at least an inch of bezel on this thing

I wonder if the T530 would have been that much larger, in terms of dimensions ... guess it's too late now.

Also, as an amendment to my previous post, I ended up disabling DPFT in the BIOS (Dynamic Platform and Thermal Framework). I guess there's a reason they left it disabled on the T430 series. While it was on, my laptop experienced about 3 BSODs within a week, usually with a message indicating something like POWER_STATE_MANAGEMENT, often when 'sleeping' and 'awaking' (though once even after a 5 minutes of inactivity). After turning those settings back off, it's been over a week without actually shutting down the laptop, and the laptop is still absolutely stable.

EDIT - AS A FOLLOWUP FOLLOWUP:

I decided to turn DPTF back on, enable CTDP, but disable LPM and CLPM. Why? Because this laptop seems to run an entire ~10+ C hotter watching 1080p YouTube with DPTF off. Using HWINFO watching the cores seems to show why. With DPTF off, like I initially said, I think the motherboard is controlling the clock speeds. When something 'demanding' happens, it pushes the cores up to 36x frequency, but it seems to do so for ALL 4 CORES. I don't know if this has anything to do with this laptop only being designed for dual core processors ... with DPTF back on, usually only 1 core is set to 36x (and 1 sometimes spikes to around 24x) while the other 2 stay idled at 12x or so, when watching a 1080p video. At the end of the day, it seems to control their freq. multiplier independently. So far, with LPM and CLPM disabled, it's been over a week with no blue screen ... I guess this is my final answer for the T430.

[CrazyTPFan]

@tdot do you use the laptop for CAD or any graphical work? just curious.

[tdot]

@tdot do you use the laptop for CAD or any graphical work? just curious .

Nope I don't. I'm currently using it for work (I don't want to be constantly tossing my T25 into a bag or mess it up, otherwise I'd probably just use that), so only software development really. I am planning on using it for KiCad eventually (when I decide to design some more hardware, if ever), but the last machine I was running KiCad on was an i3 4xxx on an XPS 13, and it ran absolutely fine. With the discreet graphics on this T430 the OpenGL simulations seem to run even better, and the ray tracing renders are far faster (good way to slam the CPU to 90+C).

[CrazyTPFan]

@tdot do you use the laptop for CAD or any graphical work? just curious .

Nope I don't. I'm currently using it for work (I don't want to be constantly tossing my T25 into a bag or mess it up, otherwise I'd probably just use that), so only software development really. I am planning on using it for KiCad eventually (when I decide to design some more hardware, if ever), but the last machine I was running KiCad on was an i3 4xxx on an XPS 13, and it ran absolutely fine. With the discreet graphics on this T430 the OpenGL simulations seem to run even better, and the ray tracing renders are far faster (good way to slam the CPU to 90+C).

The only reason I asked is because you have the model with the discrete graphics.

[dr_st]

Discrete, not discreet.

Even though they are pronounced the same, the words are written differently and have different meanings.

discrete [dɪ'skriːt]
adj. constituting a separate entity or part

discreet [dɪ'skriːt]
adj.
1. marked by prudence or modesty and wise self-restraint
2. unobtrusively perceptive and sympathetic
3. heedful of potential consequences

[tdot]

Discrete, not discreet.

Even though they are pronounced the same, the words are written differently and have different meanings.

discrete [dɪ'skriːt]
adj. constituting a separate entity or part

discreet [dɪ'skriːt]
adj.
1. marked by prudence or modesty and wise self-restraint
2. unobtrusively perceptive and sympathetic
3. heedful of potential consequences

I'm pretty sure the T430 GPU counts as "marked by prudence or modesty and wise self-restraint".

I think a simple benchmark shows its relative raw power well. The NVS 5400M gets a 774. The Intel UHD Graphics 630 integrated into the Coffee Lake CPUs gets a 1158. If one is expecting to do high performance graphical work on the T430, they are picking the wrong machine.

X-COM: Enemy Unknown from 2012 will run on HIGH at 1920x1080, but that's really pushing it. You'll get framerate drops and some slow downs at some parts. And that was never a highly demanding game to begin with. Plus, the GPU/CPU will smack up to like a constant 100C. The NVS 5400M can hardly be considered 'discrete graphics' by this point, but it's at least better than the HD4000 graphics on the 3840qm. And really, I just wanted a maxed out T430.

For light CAD or CAD that doesn't require huge graphical performance, it can run fine (like rendering a simple circuit board from board layout). If you're trying to do modern 3D modeling or something, I'd say forget it.