Thinkpads Forum

Note to mods: please don't take this the wrong way, I'm just trying to voice a constructive criticism that I have of the way this forum seems to be run.
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One article I read recently was a list of "things not to do" when running a forum. Two on the list were under-moderation and over-moderation.

I understand (and agree with) the need to maintain a professional and clean looking forum, but it can go too far. There is always a nice middle ground between having a strictly moderated and professional forum and having a bunch of posts bloated with profanity, huge images, and flashy animations, and useless garbage.

Allow me to provide a few criticisms of this forum in sense of heavy moderation.

First, I know the discussion about avatars has run its course, so I won't waste any time on that except to say that I do not see how a small personalized icon can hurt anything or take away from the "professionalism" of the forum. a small 10 or 20k image is also not going to hurt anyone on dial up.

I mentioned profanity. I think that the mods can be a little bit too afraid of offending someone with language that has been deemed "inappropriate" (again, don't take that the wrong way). This is the only forum that I use where I am hesitant to use words like "[censored]" or "[censored]" (I presume theres no problem in using these words as a reference as is done here - if it is a problem please just censor them or ask me to). People here are, or at least had ought to be, mature enough to see such words. As such, they should be allowed so long as they aren't being used in a slanderous or excessive manner.

I noticed a lot of threads being locked lately. I saw one locked because the "discussion had run its course," and another (mine!) because "we have had enough of [the what ____ do you use threads]" Seeing especially as how these both were posted in the off topic forum, I see no problem in letting them run their way. In fact, I can see no reason to lock threads unless they're duplicates or violate forum rules (or some other rare case).

I'm not going to say that the moderation here is grossly strict, but it is more so than most, if not all, other forums I use and it sometimes seems to go too far. I just hope that the moderators who read this post will take it seriously because heavy handed moderating can kill a forum (with the exception of this minor criticism, this forum is great). Perhaps this is all just the Libertarian in me coming out screaming "Power to the people", but these are my concerns as they stand; take them as you wish.

Senior Admin Edit: Added Poll

I'll put my thoughts in, of course I am no Mod, so this is just from one user to another.

The forum is the best moderated forum I belong to. Over the years (I am 26) I have used many forums. All have their strengths and weaknesses. This forum is my favorite for a few reasons. The mods know when to lock threads. A recent user, whom I will not mention, started far too many threads in off topic that are not justifiable in any way. Sure people, even myself, start threads that get little response, or even views. That does not mean they are wasteful. However, there is a limit on what you should post about, number wise and topic wise.

All the recent "What_____do you use" threads are superfluous, though I admit I replied to one or two of them. This includes your new camera post, because it was discussed ad nauseam a month or two ago, you even mentioned it in the recent thread. Just giving the facts here.

The thread that "ran its course" was locked at the right time, because the author of the thread admitted he started threads because he is "a boring person". It should never have been started in the first place if you ask me.

Never have I seen a problem with profanity on this board. Avatars I do not care about, I have an IBM logo in my sig, good enough for me.

Lets get this board back to what it was a few weeks ago. Sorry for the rambling.

~ Peter

This forum is too strict??? No, i don\'t feel that this forum is strict. The longer you remain in this forum, the more you will understand about the requirement to be strict. And if you think the mods here are so happy, eager and excited to lock or delete those threads, then you are wrong!!!They lock the threads because of some reason.

We want to see quality not your high post count.

Respect the mods and they will respect you in return and never ever rant about them because you are leaving a very bad impression about yourself to everyone of us (members, mods and admins). Sometimes threads got locked is due to those members who reply have gone off topic or that thread is going to cause a fight soon. There is always a reason for threads being locked. If you are not sure why your threads got locked or deleted, send a PM to the mods and ask them why and not post openly and criticise their moderating duties.

I concur with Turbo Audi. This forum has some of the nicest and the most responsible mods I have seen on the internet in quite a while. They exactly know when to lock a thread and stop it from becoming bad. I really like it there is almost no profanity whatsoever - swearing or using inappropriate jokes never really look good (though it just doesnt mean anything most of the time).

The mods are really polite and **always** leave a comment when they moderate a post. I have got a 'thank you' note from one of the mods for my posts in the suggestions section - where else does this happen? Above all, mods here are thinkpad gods. They are real experts and almost are ever wrong. Each one of them will be a professional somewhere and still they take pleasure in being a part this great forum and helping us out, and it is not right to complain about any of them in any way!

It'll be a dream day when I can be a mod here, and it would be an honour to be one. To Bill Morrow , his mods and this forum, I give a THUMBS UP - wait, let me make that two!

Let me go on record officially to say this is the BEST forum of its kind, as I have browsed others, which were either spotty response, juvenile responses, or non-descriptive shallow posts. The people here are responsive, very friendly and give in-depth help. I have never come here with a problem, which was huge to me, and not been helped and resolved. Holy cow, can you say that for anything else in the world, that you get fast solutions that work - for free? I have had some of my threads moved to the proper departments, but I expect that as I know the moderator's job is to keep threads where they will get the most response, why do they do this?? To help me

If you want to experience strict, try calling Lenovo with an out of warranty old Thinkpad with a problem and get someone to talk to you to resolve it - for free.

I love these guys.

This forum has a well-earned earned reputation for being civilized. People who are, or become uncivilized or over-bearing usually get caught up short by one of us. There is a forum for the Moderators and another one for the four Admins. I assure everyone that if one of us gets out of line (too strict, too picky, wrong, whatever) we usually provide and receive constructive criticism in those forums.

So I am not voting (conflict of interest), but I do want to assure people that we endeavour to be fair and even-handed. We are also just people and also just volunteers.
... JD Hurst

Again, I don't want to give the wrong impression. I do not mean to insult the moderators here or demean the work they do. Overall, they do an *excellent* job.

I just put together these criticisms because there have been several moderator decisions that I have not agreed with lately.

Please please do not think that I mean anything other than some friendly criticism.

The only issue I will address is the swearing/profanity. People of all ages/gender/nationalities/sexual preference use this forum, so we all need to police ourselves a little and realize that we may not intend to offend.....but it happens and when it does the mod team hears about it, so we have to walk a razors edge sometimes.

This is the best forum out there because of the members. I applaude (sp) you all too.

RUSH2112 wrote:I just put together these criticisms because there have been several moderator decisions that I have not agreed with lately.

Just as an FYI, I neither expect nor care whether the decisions I make while moderating will be agreed on by all forum members. My role here is not to make everyone happy - that's an impossible goal. Instead, it's to maintain a well-ordered forum where people can get assistance and share knowledge and experience in a civil environment using multiple platforms and access methods.

To that end, I listen to criticisms and comments from Bill first, then James and John, and then the rest of the mod team in addition to well-reasoned comments from forum members at large. I typically won't respond to PMs after the fact, and I don't always leave a moderator's note about why a message or thread was moved/locked/deleted/split-off/revised/etc since many times it's stunningly obvious.

I'm the admin who shut down the Off-Topic threads you refer to, and I did it after getting PMs from forum members about the increased number of them and after a discussion in the mods' private conference. Yes, we have an Off-Topic conference, but the primary purpose of this forum is ThinkPads. There's a limit to how much discussion traffic should be diverted to Off-Topic. This isn't a chat room.

The only time that I found them to be too strict was when I started a poll asking "What's your gender?" about a year ago, in the Off Topics forum. Nonny found that highly offensive and locked the thread immediately.

I frequent some other forums and I am not a moderator there. I see lots of flame threads there that could have been prevented by moderation as soon as it starts but those mods seem to be scared of offending someone.
Personally if I were to discover a new (to me) forum and find it a field of flamewars I probably would not ever join, post or do anything but lurk.

Generally the more intelligent people can make their point without resorting to profanity. It seems that the use of profanity diminishes the percieved IQ of the poster.

I am not going to vote in the poll either.

The moderation must not be too bad here because the forum has grown considerably since it moved here from the old format.

This forum is too strict... emmm.... no... I am the one who voted the option (not strict enough).

The admins and mods have given too much of chances to members who have stepped over the line again and again. And to end it all, yes, i admit that i am one of the members who goes around PMing BillMorrow and some of the mods to delete some of the junk threads.

If our admins and mods are too/so strict, then i would not have been here till now. Yes, i have criticised the mods openly previously and nonny always give me chances to repent. And i have posted craps after craps and using this forum to chat with my friends (when i was a freshman):oops:; James, BillMorrow, nonny and the mods forgave me again and again.

I guess you guys are right... Perhaps I overplayed the issue.

Indeed it was probably the Libertarian/Power to the People/Small Gov't nature inside me ripping its way out and showing here.

Thanks for the replies/comments.

Well since this is now in the suggestion box anyway, I would like to make this suggestion (request is probably better) to mods when you lock threads...

It would be helpful to the poster if you identified yourself, either directly in the edit where you declare that you are locking the thread or in a PM directly to the poster. This way, we can contact you if we have any questions about your locking of the thread (which may also help to avoid misunderstandings).

Honestly Im a very picky person and very cautious of anything that I will put my name on. This forum is the best forum I have ever been apart of. I have had threads locked and I have been openly criticized and I feel like every interaction on here has been well taken care of. This is a mature adult forum to get advice and share tips and sell things and what not. A thread like this questioning the mods/admins IMO is borderline mutiny. If I had a problem with the mods/admins I would just ask them in a PM. For folks not getting paid they sure are on the ball.

Like many others on here, I have been on the net for over 20 years. This is by far the single best, well run location on the web, and for certain since the early 90's when the net became the web and it all began to open up and usenet went down hill in a big way.

I can remember one or two instances here when I thought there should have been a bit more stringency, maybe one or two the other way. That's about as perfect as they get.

skitty4gzus wrote:A thread like this questioning the mods/admins IMO is borderline mutiny. If I had a problem with the mods/admins I would just ask them in a PM.

I think that's wrong. A member, if they think that there have been several instances where they were wronged, should have the right to voice their opinion in a public thread in a civil manner. I think that RUSH did a very good job of explaining his opinion and voicing his discontent.

I know I'm new here, but I've been surfing forums for as long as I've had the internet (since like 1994). Is this the most strict forum I've been to? In some ways...yes. In other ways...no. I think that a 5-10kb avatar isn't going to kill bandwidth and can help in adding to the blandness that is the standard phpbb skin (sub-silver).

skitty4gzus wrote:A thread like this questioning the mods/admins IMO is borderline mutiny. If I had a problem with the mods/admins I would just ask them in a PM.

Well two problems with that statement that I see.

First, this thread was not directed at any one moderator. This means that it was not addressing one or two people in particular, which would definitely make a thread unwarranted (as opposed to a PM). This was a lists of criticisms about the moderation as a whole, making it impractical and too clumsy to send a PM to every single mod. Also, it a discussion I felt should be shared by the TPF community as a whole, not just the mods and I. In reflection on this discussion, as I said a few posts up, I believe that I unintentionally overplayed the issue, and while I do not retract the points I made, I do not think that the moderation here is indeed not *too* strict, albeit a little stricter than I would be. Because I posted these points and we have had a discussion on it, I feel more secure in the integrity of the forum as a whole.

Second, it is important for forum members to be able to voice their concerns about the forum, no matter how radical they may be, as long as they do so coherently and respectfully. Since when is public dissent mutiny?

For what its worth, seeing as how I have not yet voted in the poll, I will be voting that the moderation is good as-is, even though I would not mind seeing the mods *slightly* more lenient (but only slightly - for the most part its fine). Notice that the title is a question, because I wasn't entirely sure at the time.

I like that the rules are stated clearly, and enforced.

I've only had one post locked, and after a brief PM chat with the MOD who locked it, I understood and agreed.

I also like the lack of "buy my junk/Viagra for everyone/my GF is nude click here" crap I see in other forums.

Joe

Can we lock this thread now?

Turbo Audi wrote:Can we lock this thread now?

Nope. The first thing to remember is that this is an Open Forum and as such there are only three things that are absolutely prohibited.

Discussions pertaining to religion.

Discussions pertaining to perceived flaws due to race/ethnicity/cultural origination.

Discussions pertaining to politics.

Rants and general spleen venting are welcomed, nay encouraged.

All that's asked is that the discussion is civil.

James

JHEM wrote:Nope. The first thing to remember is that this is an Open Forum and as such there are only three things that are absolutely prohibited.

Discussions pertaining to religion.

Discussions pertaining to perceived flaws due to race/ethnicity/cultural origination.

Discussions pertaining to politics.

Hmm...I didn't know about the first and third...guess I should take another look at the forum rules.

If you want to see over-moderation, check out http://www.bungie.net/Forums/default.aspx .

Even though it's full of kids, it's insane how busy the mods are.

This place is fine. Thank God they (he/she) stepped in and stopped those repetitious threads about what you use. That's what the little kids do on bungie.net, because they're BORED.

I do think that moderation is a tad high, but that directly represents the quality and quanity of the information provided. I have found NO other forum that provides the information found here.

So to ALL that give their priceless knowledge, THANKS for helping me out. Continue the great work, Especially BillMorrow and the mods.

This forum is very strict. Rude moderators, rude admins and some rude members. Even hire spies on board. I post what all kena deleted. Some people also post nothing but NonSense never get deleted. This is UNFAIR TREATY!

liangkiangwei wrote:This forum is very strict. Rude moderators, rude admins and some rude members. <snip the personal rant>

You can certainly express your opinion, with or without backing it up by specific examples, however don't take it any further than that. Personal attacks against any forum member(s) will not be tolerated, as well as any form of flamebait. (Is that over-moderating?)

As I am a moderator, the newest one, at that, I have withheld my vote in this poll. I have only participated in a couple of other online forums in the past 10 years or so and have never spent as much time and energy in those places as I have here. I find the complete lack of spamming and the civil exchange of informatoin to be quite refreshing.

I don't really understand some of those people in this world.....!! Why do they need to fight on some discussion? Do you get prizes for it? Anyway, I have no problems in this forum.....and as you can see....there's different races, cultures and background of forumers in here.

Some people just get their kicks by stirring the pot and watching the bubbles pop. They are the reason moderation is needed.
Example: Check out the guy 3 posts up with a couple of posts and a bad attitude.

USER EDIT X1:
Do not make any unnecessary comments about the mods and admins here. They are professional experts and i will support all their actions here. Making stupid comments about our moderators is a stupid idea.

User Edit reason: Too long winded and got scolded by other members who read my post...

NS wrote:~Empty vessel makes the most noise~

Rude moderators and admins???

No... I can state examples to support this statement. Some senior members (Senior than me) know that when i first registered into this forum, i was being hunted and shot down every time i make a post. Why? Because i was being mistaken as someone else...! And whenever i posted an insulting comments to mark that mod with 100% intention, the admins will shoot me down, so i chose to take a 1 week holiday from this forum and went to another forum. And in the other forum, i was being thoroughly counselled by the admins, mods and members and now, i can say: Respect the person with the responsibility and he/she will respect you in return. You need TIME to prove yourself. And continuously attacking our moderators will degrade your own status.

Yes, i admitted that several years ago, i was being banned by another forum for 2 times because of some issues and i always return with a new nick to disrupt and attack the mods but later on, as i grew up and become more mature, i discovered that finding fault with someone is very tiring and why not make friends with that person instead and this will make everyone happy.

Proof: Even my 2nd most hated moderator (Mike) also become my friend. Don\'t believe, check out the username thread (Off-topic) and see how much we enjoy each other\'s company. We were like a big family... And yes, i hated every single moderators and admins when i was very new here.

All i can conclude here is: The mods and admins are volunteering their job here and they DO NOT get paid for this job. If you feel that they are rude and you don\'t like it, then you can choose to move on. No one will stop you from leaving this forum. Can you grow up for goodness sake!!!

*I am NOT poking at the badger but explaining what i have on my mind*

Ask yourself this question. Why did the mods and admins treated you in this fashion and NOT other members??? Luckily i am not 1 of the admins, if not i would have banned this person from this forum and would not have tolerated this type of childish behaviour!!!:evil:

Do not make any unnecessary comments about the mods and admins here. They are professional experts and i will support all their actions here. Making stupid comments about our moderators is a stupid idea.

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Sorry to the thread OP for this long rant. I need to get this out of my chest if not i am going to become mad soon... *Sign of relief*

Its time to MOVE on, dude!! This discussion has been repeating on and on and on.....!! Live with it.......there's always some imperfection! Gheeezz!!