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T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

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my03
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T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#1 Post by my03 » Thu Aug 10, 2023 3:56 pm

I need to ask the hivemind:

i recently ran both the cpu-z (1.04 vintage edition) as well as Aida32 on my W98 T21 laptop and they both tell me that this machine has a PIIIe cpu onboard running at 600mhz. According to Thinkwiki (https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:T21) this machine "should" have a cpu that runs at anything from 750 - 800 mhz (?).

Looking at the bios and it reports 750mhz (this would be more precise of course) and i also assume that these older versions of these applications might have had a difficult time identifying this CPU. And this brings me to the main question: Is the CPU on the T2x range of laptops socketed or soldered? (if the former, i guess it can be swapped out for a 850mhz version right?)
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Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#2 Post by Gonzaleitor » Thu Aug 10, 2023 8:32 pm

Cpuz some times fails to read the clock speed accurately. It happened to me in an A31, rebooted the machine and the new reading was right.
The T21 has socketed cpus, so you can put in the 850mhz PIII

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Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#3 Post by RealBlackStuff » Fri Aug 11, 2023 12:14 am

It will also throttle if your battery is missing/dead.
With an 850 CPU (and no battery) you'll probably get ~700 speed.
Hardly worth upgrading.
Lovely day for a Guinness! (The Real Black Stuff)
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Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#4 Post by my03 » Sat Aug 12, 2023 5:01 pm

Hi RBS,

i'll risk it as the CPU was quite affordable. Why would it start to throttle in the absence of a battery? I would presume that this (odd) behavious could be adjusted by software (?)
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Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#5 Post by kfzhu1229 » Sat Aug 12, 2023 5:07 pm

my03 wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2023 5:01 pm
i'll risk it as the CPU was quite affordable.
Well then a heads up that the 900 and 1Ghz Pentium III coppermine CPU's run extremely hot - even hotter than a sub 2Ghz Pentium 4-M! The speed gains are fairly minimal due to limits of Coppermine and you risk overwhelming your heatsink and/or the motherboard's dreaded voltage IC's! Don't even think about using a Tualatin Pentium III-M as that socket (variant of Socket 478) isn't even close to being the same shape as yours.
Also I know on the ThinkPad A20/A21 series, the higher clocked Pentium III versions have an extra part of the heatsink with a tiny pipe going to the left hinge cover to dissipate heat that is missing on my celeron version of A20m, so while I can and did upgrade the CPU, I had to transfer the heatsink over.
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Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#6 Post by my03 » Sun Aug 13, 2023 12:04 pm

kfzhu1229,

got it.

I purchased a heatsink/fan for the T22 just now and will use it alongside the cpu upgrade :) Hopefully it will help a bit.

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Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#7 Post by my03 » Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:27 pm

Hi all,

after having recieved some things from Ebay (a 1GHZ SL53S CPU (it was not super expensive and i thought "why not?") plus a, supposedly*, T22 heatsink, i finally made the swap.

*supposedly because while i ordered a T22 sink, i recieved a T20 heatsink (verified this via the HMM). Fortunately, the heat-sink that i already had in the T21 was a bit "beefier" than the one i ordered as the heat-pipe was quite much bigger on my own (so i suppose this is what the T22 would have had from the start?)

My original one was FRU 04P3448 (uppermost) whereas the "T22" one bought off Ebay was FRU 08K7066 (lower)

https://ibb.co/xsCc243

Anyway, i swapped the CPU out and kept my own sink (used Kryonaut and before that cleaned thorougly with paste remover & then IPA).

Booting the T21 up, my bios (version 1.16) reported that i now had a 1000mhz cpu installed. Continuing into W98 and everything works perfectly normal (fan is rather silent at this point).

Now the weird stuff:

I installed cpu-z and Aida32 for Win98 and they both tell me that i have a 700mhz CPU installed with a x7 multiplier. Weird....

So i run a few games to see how it works (Half-Life, WinQuake) and it might be placebo but it feels like it works smoother than it used to. But thinking about what RealBlackStuff wrote earlier (i would get ~700mhz from it), i swapped back the old 750mhz cpu.

Running cpu-z and Aida32 again, it now (again) tells me that i have a 600mhz and x6 multiplier CPU installed (bios says 750mhz). Starting up both games again and it feels like they both execute a bit slower (again, might be placebo). Not sure if the gameplay itself feels different between the two CPUs.

Are there any fool-proof ways to detect the CPU speed on these machines? Should i trust what the bios claims?
Last edited by my03 on Thu Aug 31, 2023 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#8 Post by kfzhu1229 » Wed Aug 30, 2023 4:43 pm

my03 wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:27 pm
*supposedly because while i ordered a T22 sink, i recieved a T20 heatsink (verified this via the HMM). Fortunately, the heat-sink that i already had in the T21 was a bit "beefier" than the one i ordered as the heat-pipe was quite much bigger on my own (so i suppose this is what the T22 would have had from the start?)

My original one was FRU 04P3448 (uppermost) whereas the "T22" one bought off Ebay was FRU 08K7066 (lower)
Definitely neither of these heatsinks match what I found in my T22. My T22's heatsink actually secretly comes apart where you'd then see loads of old white thermal paste and two heatpipes inside. Not many ppl know that that T22 heatsink actually comes apart.
my03 wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:27 pm
Booting the T21 up, my bios (version 1.16) reported that i now had a 1000mhz cpu installed. Continuing into W98 and everything works perfectly normal (fan is rather silent at this point).
Now the weird stuff:
I installed cpu-z and Aida32 for Win98 and they both tell me that i have a 700mhz CPU installed with a x6 multiplier. Weird....
So i run a few games to see how it works (Half-Life, WinQuake) and it might be placebo but it feels like it works smoother than it used to. But thinking about what RealBlackStuff wrote earlier (i would get ~700mhz from it), i swapped back the old 750mhz cpu.
Looks like you did not set up speedstep properly. Install the Intel speedstep applet and set it to maximum performance, then you should see 1Ghz. On Coppermine CPU's, there are only two speed stages for the speedstep and the switching is NOT automatically on demand (that's only a thing on Tualatin)! I.e. it's either max performance or battery savings, and you can set it to do different speeds on charger vs on battery but you can't have it dynamically switch between the two like modern Speedstep!
Besides, anything before Windows XP doesn't support dynamically switching in speedstep anyway and you need the Intel speedstep applet to switch manually even on Pentium M's
My experience with T22 and Coppermine 900Mhz is that it runs mad hot - when the fan comes on the air coming out is like burning hot
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Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#9 Post by my03 » Thu Aug 31, 2023 6:35 am

Interesting. I wasn't aware that they were possible to separate like that (?). I only could see that the one that i had was (roughly) almost twice as wide heatpipe-wise than the "new" one.



I made sure to "bump" everything in the bios (config/cpu) up to "maximum performance". Then i managed to locate the SpeedStep applet and it installed ok (and pops up in the control panel/power settings) but i can't basically alter anything in those drop-down menus (that are set to "maximum performance" for AC which i guess is fine?).

I wonder if i need to use the Lenovo specific SpeedStep applet perhaps?

I saw that it was available to download (but not explicitly for the T2x series but more for the Rx series, etc) but i guess it would still work for the T2x as it also is speedstep compatible?


I also found these articles explaining about the inherent issues with the 60w vs 90w PSUs and how it affects the SpeedStep capability (with 60w psu one needs a working battery but with 90w psu the battery becomes non-essential for Speedstep). My current PSU is a 80w unit (i think it comes from the Panasonic Toughbook originally) but i did now order a 90w replacement psu as well, just to be sure.

I guess as it identifies itself as a 1GHZ unit in the bios, the machine "should" essentially support this cpu (?)
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Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#10 Post by RealBlackStuff » Thu Aug 31, 2023 6:40 am

T2x machines use 16V/72W chargers.
The 90W chargers provide 20V, which would destroy your machine!
Lovely day for a Guinness! (The Real Black Stuff)
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Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#11 Post by my03 » Thu Aug 31, 2023 7:32 am

Is it always the case for the T21 ones that 90w == 20v?

Asking because i have a few chargers for X61 and T61 (65 and 90w i believe) that are interchangeable.

(65w for only integrated graphics and 90w for dgpu in that case)
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Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#12 Post by Enig » Thu Aug 31, 2023 7:49 am

my03 wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2023 7:32 am
Is it always the case for the T21 ones that 90w == 20v?

Asking because i have a few chargers for X61 and T61 (65 and 90w i believe) that are interchangeable.
90W == 20V - Yes I think so. AFAIK there was no 90W PSUs until the T60/X60 - big barrel plug - from ca. 2006.
There have been quite a few different power supply plugs/standards through ThinkPad history, but your T21 the uses the smaller barrel plug with 16V for sure.
The T21 might be OK on 54W 3.36 Amps ... but go with a 72W 4.5A just to be sure. Just go with a 72W 4.5A

https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Power_Connector
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Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#13 Post by my03 » Thu Aug 31, 2023 7:59 am

aha, ok. Then it makes sense.

My current adapter (a Panasonic CF-AA6503A M4 (this model: https://www.ebay.com/itm/115796145252) is outputting 16v, 5A and 80w so i guess that is as good as it gets then (and should be plenty given that the original one gives 65w)?
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Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#14 Post by Enig » Thu Aug 31, 2023 8:19 am

According to the withdrawn book the T21 with sold with the 72W PSU:
http://ps-2.kev009.com/psref/tawbook.pdf
..so voltage and amps of yours sound fine. ...btw are these barrel plugs always the same polarity? ..if not you should check that first.

Personally I'd prefer to with an original IBM branded one when it comes to PSUs, but that's me being careful ofc.
Something like this (not my listing):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/145243405716
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Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#15 Post by my03 » Thu Aug 31, 2023 10:56 am

I bought the T21 second hand and it came with this Panasonic PSU and it works with it (even if the battery is dead and doesn't want to charge any more).

I sounds weird but i wonder if a working battery would have any impact on this at all?
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Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#16 Post by Enig » Thu Aug 31, 2023 3:35 pm

Well, that panasonic certainly has enough amps for your machine :)

Regarding the speed loss then then RBS said exactly that earlier in this thread: “ It will also throttle if your battery is missing/dead.”

An earlier thread on this for a T20:
https://thinkpads.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=85545

I’m curious why is it important? 600 vs 750 is it that big a deal? they’re both slow, but not really that far apart xD
The way I think on this after aquiring a bit of a collection - if I need more power, I’ll just grab the next faster thinkpad … soo why not add a T23, T30 or T40 to your collection ;o)
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Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#17 Post by my03 » Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:38 am

Thanks for that thread. It was a quite interesting read in it :)

I did order a new battery for it. While i don't know if this machine will actually try to detect (hardware wise) if the battery is genuine or not and if it will (as a consequence of not being genuine) will still refuse to bump up the multiplier, idk... But i guess i will soon find out.

Its not the end-of-the-world type of thing if it is not possible to have it running at the speed of the CPU (or even as originally intended at 750 instead of 600) but if it is supposed to be handling 750 (or nowadays, 1ghz) then it would be a big bonus to have it run as fast as the hardware in theory should be capable of.
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Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#18 Post by my03 » Sat Sep 02, 2023 10:15 am

Seems to be an "open and shut case" (and RBS is absolutely right)

"Symptom
ThinkPad A2x, T2x, 600X with Intel Speed Step microprocessor will slow down to Battery Optimized speed when the battery is removed from the machine.

Affected configurations
ThinkPad A20, A21, A22, T20, T21, T22, and 600X models with Intel Speed Step microprocessor.

Solution
This is working as designed. Please have the battery inserted to run the CPU at full speed.

Additional information
When operating at highest CPU speed and with high current usage peripherals attached (CardBus cards, USB devices, etc.), the required operating current may momentarily exceed the capability of the AC Adapter. When the battery is installed, the battery can supplement the power during the momentary peaks.

When the battery is removed from the ThinkPad computer, it switches to "Battery Optimized" speed (lower speed) to reduce peak power demands and to prevent the possibility of input voltage dropping too low, causing the ThinkPad computer to power off."

(source: viewtopic.php?t=58722)

Anticipating the delivery of the battery now to verify this.
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Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#19 Post by my03 » Fri Dec 22, 2023 1:07 pm

So i need to revive this thread a little bit. In my quest to source any form of replacement battery for the T21-23 range, i have struck nil. I have browsed around in rather many shops across the globe (even those that say that they have them in stock) and placed orders, only to be (best case) met by a message one week later telling that they don't have stock and i get a refund (in one case, i had to nag them to make the refund for the same reason).

Do anyone here know about any place on earth that might still have main battery replacements available for purchase?
W530 3940xm/32gb/520/240/240gb ssd, FHD
T410 w. I7-640m, 8GB, 240+128gb ssd hd, 1440x900
X61 w. T7500, 8GB, 240gb ssd, 1400x1050
760E
380ed
365xd
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Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#20 Post by RealBlackStuff » Fri Dec 22, 2023 1:37 pm

I still have a spare T23 battery in my cupboard (in Ireland).
How can I check if it still works, when I am without any T2x laptop?
Lovely day for a Guinness! (The Real Black Stuff)
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PS: the old Boardroom website is still available on the Wayback Machine
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Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#21 Post by my03 » Sun Dec 24, 2023 1:05 pm

Hi R.B.S,

I unfortunately have no clue how to check this :(

If you would ever consider parting with it, i'm willing to take the gamble, if only to (if possible) see if the CPU will run at its full speed, if only temporary :)

If you would consider parting with it, please do PM me.

best regards
W530 3940xm/32gb/520/240/240gb ssd, FHD
T410 w. I7-640m, 8GB, 240+128gb ssd hd, 1440x900
X61 w. T7500, 8GB, 240gb ssd, 1400x1050
760E
380ed
365xd
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701cs
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Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#22 Post by kfzhu1229 » Mon Dec 25, 2023 12:46 am

my03 wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2023 1:07 pm
So i need to revive this thread a little bit. In my quest to source any form of replacement battery for the T21-23 range, i have struck nil. I have browsed around in rather many shops across the globe (even those that say that they have them in stock) and placed orders, only to be (best case) met by a message one week later telling that they don't have stock and i get a refund (in one case, i had to nag them to make the refund for the same reason).

Do anyone here know about any place on earth that might still have main battery replacements available for purchase?
To widen your search radius a tiny bit, AFAIK an T30 battery will work there too. T30 batteries are shaped to have a tiny piece missing to prevent T2x batteries from sitting inside a T30 laptop (T30 demands far more power draw) but those batteries work on T2x.
And yes I can confirm the Speedstep thing on my ThinkPad A22m with the rebuilt battery. I have the PIII 900Mhz on that thing and that thing only can be switched to 900Mhz when the battery is present and moderately charged. As soon as either the battery is unplugged or the percentage went low I hear a chord by the Intel speedstep applet and 700Mhz applies.
Dell Lat CP MMX-233 64mb 40gb W2k
600 PII-266 416mb 40gb WXP
T23 PIII 1.13ghz 1gb W7
Precision M4300 X9000 8gb 160gb WUXGA Ultrasharp fp W10
T530i 15.6" i7 16gb fp W10
UXGA:
A30p PIII 1.2 1gb W7 (IDTech)
T43p 2.26 2gb fp W10 (Sharp)
Lat C840 P4-2.5 2gb 60gb W7 (Ultrasharp)

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Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#23 Post by my03 » Sat Dec 30, 2023 4:01 pm

kfzhu1229 wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2023 12:46 am
my03 wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2023 1:07 pm
So i need to revive this thread a little bit. In my quest to source any form of replacement battery for the T21-23 range, i have struck nil. I have browsed around in rather many shops across the globe (even those that say that they have them in stock) and placed orders, only to be (best case) met by a message one week later telling that they don't have stock and i get a refund (in one case, i had to nag them to make the refund for the same reason).

Do anyone here know about any place on earth that might still have main battery replacements available for purchase?
To widen your search radius a tiny bit, AFAIK an T30 battery will work there too. T30 batteries are shaped to have a tiny piece missing to prevent T2x batteries from sitting inside a T30 laptop (T30 demands far more power draw) but those batteries work on T2x.
And yes I can confirm the Speedstep thing on my ThinkPad A22m with the rebuilt battery. I have the PIII 900Mhz on that thing and that thing only can be switched to 900Mhz when the battery is present and moderately charged. As soon as either the battery is unplugged or the percentage went low I hear a chord by the Intel speedstep applet and 700Mhz applies.
I appreciate it. Thx :) I have contacted numerous vendors claiming stock of the T30 battery, but they all say they are out (and manufacturing has stopped) :(

But i also see that the R32/R42 battery looks very similar in shape (?). Would they be compatible?
W530 3940xm/32gb/520/240/240gb ssd, FHD
T410 w. I7-640m, 8GB, 240+128gb ssd hd, 1440x900
X61 w. T7500, 8GB, 240gb ssd, 1400x1050
760E
380ed
365xd
360cs
701cs
T21
T590 (work machine)

RealBlackStuff
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Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:17 am
Location: Loch Garman, Éire

Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#24 Post by RealBlackStuff » Wed Jan 17, 2024 2:19 am

More battery information:
see my post https://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=135922
The T30 battery that I have has actually been charged!
I have PM'd with my03 about various options.

But for Joe Public here are the basics as discussed.
Shipping a battery by itself is no longer allowed.
The only way nowadays is when the battery is inside a (working or defective) laptop.
I can get a non-working T2x laptop relatively cheap.
If I strip it to its bare minimum (NO keyboard, CPU, fan, RAM, modem, CD, HDD, LCD, lid cabling) but with a (working) battery, I could bring the weight down to under 2KG/4Lbs.
Since there is nothing breakable in there, it doesn't even need any bubble wrap!
Shipping prices (from Ireland) unfortunately are through the roof.
This is what I could find:
€60.50 Fedex
€45.00 AnPost
€35.00 DPD (cheapest)
Add to that the laptop price and my battery price, and you're talking ~€100.
my03 so far has understandably declined.

However...
I mentioned this already 12 YEARS ago, you can make battery extension cables.
The link describes 7-pin cables, but the same goes for 5-pin cables.

AFAIK the batteries from the A2x/A3x/R3x/R4x/R5x/T2x/T30/T4x/X2x/X3x/X4x series all have the same 5-pin connectors and they can all use the same 16V chargers.
This means that -with such a cable- you should be able to use any battery in any laptop, as long as both are one of the above A/R/T/X series! :mrgreen:
E.g. a T41 battery via extension cable in a T21 laptop.
Lovely day for a Guinness! (The Real Black Stuff)
Lenovo: X240, X250, T440p, T480, M900 Tiny.

PS: the old Boardroom website is still available on the Wayback Machine
.

kfzhu1229
Senior ThinkPadder
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Posts: 2477
Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:59 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: T21 with 600Mhz PIIIe cpu?

#25 Post by kfzhu1229 » Wed Jan 17, 2024 2:47 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2024 2:19 am
AFAIK the batteries from the A2x/A3x/R3x/R4x/R5x/T2x/T30/T4x/X2x/X3x/X4x series all have the same 5-pin connectors and they can all use the same 16V chargers.
This means that -with such a cable- you should be able to use any battery in any laptop, as long as both are one of the above A/R/T/X series! :mrgreen:
E.g. a T41 battery via extension cable in a T21 laptop.
Again with my experimentation of my 5 pin extension cable to play with my A22m and A30p and T4x, I discovered that while my dead A21m and my working A22m are happy with A30p and T4x batteries, the latter two will reject my rebuilt A22m battery with a communication error. To be more specific, ThinkPad T/A/X3x and up + T23 + R4x/5x have a newer power management system than the older 2x models. The batteries are backwards compatible but may not be fully forwards compatible.
But in this case, yeah it means your T21 happily takes 3x and 4x batteries.
Also as always, when you use the extension cables, pay utmost attention to the polarity (it is still easy to reverse despite the notch)! Fortunately all OEM ThinkPad batteries have the terminals marked on the battery pack so it's easy to check
Dell Lat CP MMX-233 64mb 40gb W2k
600 PII-266 416mb 40gb WXP
T23 PIII 1.13ghz 1gb W7
Precision M4300 X9000 8gb 160gb WUXGA Ultrasharp fp W10
T530i 15.6" i7 16gb fp W10
UXGA:
A30p PIII 1.2 1gb W7 (IDTech)
T43p 2.26 2gb fp W10 (Sharp)
Lat C840 P4-2.5 2gb 60gb W7 (Ultrasharp)

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