T22 RAM problem

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Dersu · #1 Post by **Dersu** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:30 pm

I need some help diagnosing and choosing a course of action with my T22 2647 8EU -- purchased used three years ago. I'm running Win XP pro.

You can skip to the questions below if you like...

I am now down to a 128 stick of ram. Here's how it happened:

I initially had error beep codes 1-3-3-1. Understood this to be RAM/(DIMM?) related.

Sometimes, it would boot to Windows sometimes just got error code. When Windows would boot-up it would sometimes recognized all 384, sometimes the 128, sometimes the 256. I tried shuffling around the ram which seemed to work somtimes.

When that didn't work I then I tried applied pressure to the ram bay cover during start up (I know bad idea). This seemed to work sometimes, but with increasingly less success. I don't even remember how I figured this out.

The fitting of the Ram slots is now a bit wonky. Was hoping all along if I just didn't turn it off very frequently it wouldn't be a problem--at least until a new laptop could be bought.

Up until last week I had been operating soley on the stick of 256 as it was more certain to run with one stick than two, but now the 256 will not work in either ram bay, with or without the 128 installed.

The 128 is all I have now and works best in rear bay, but can be coaxed to run in the front bay sometimes. Also, there is occassionally a new error beep code 3-3-1. Again, understand to be RAM/DIMM related and possibly bad motherboard.

Incidentally, my battery lasts about 4 minutes and has been pretty much useless since I purchased the computer. In case that matters.

I attempted to boot with memtest86 and all I seem to get is a flashing cursor at start up.

TIME FOR THE QUESTIONS:

I just ordered a new 256 stick from crucial. Could my computer damage the new RAM if the mobo is bad? (Assuming I don't continue to apply pressure to the ram bay cover or throw it all out the window)

What happened to the old 256; could it have been a bad mobo? Or was the damage caused by applying pressure to the bay to get it to work?

How much would a new/used mobo cost? How do I determine the correct model? Any soldering involved? Not affraid to, but don't really want to and don't have the equipment. Is there a good guide to this out there? I have an IBM pdf that lays out the basic steps of removing and replacing parts, but would like more...

Sorry for the length, but seemed necessary. Please throw a dog a bone; I really need this resolved.

Thanks!

awdark · #2 Post by **awdark** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:55 pm

It sounds like your ram slot is more screwed up than your ram chips.

How does the pins on the sticks of ram look? Nice and shiny scratched and worn...

oxidized and burnt?

If they are relatively shiny and I assume they are, then I woudl blame the ram slot.

Do the sticks of ram stay in the slot? Like click in nicely and stay flat?

Uh oh having a power sag...

Edit, someone super replied, mine is mostly worthless now...

Sometimes, a little pad of paper in the ram bay to hold the ram sticks down when you tighten the ram cover also works.

#3 Post by **rkawakami** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:05 pm

Dersu wrote:Could my computer damage the new RAM if the mobo is bad?

Possible, but very unlikely in my opinion. About the only way to kill the module would be to subject it to a voltage (or current) which exceeds the designed limits. This could happen if a power or ground pin in the socket/motherboard was shorted to an output pin. Since you say your 128MB module is (mostly) working, then your motherboard is probably okay.

Dersu wrote:What happened to the old 256; could it have been a bad mobo? Or was the damage caused by applying pressure to the bay to get it to work?

Putting pressure on the module/connector/motherboard may have resulted in a contact problem from a mis-aligned pin in the socket to a micro-crack in the motherboard or module. Hard to say without electronic testing. It's possible that when you were handling the memory a static charge was applied to the edge connector of the SODIMM. That can destroy the input or output buffer of one or more of the memory chips. This is why you should be careful when handling electronic parts. However, in the many years of testing memory devices I have rarely used proper grounding techniques, like a grounded wrist strap, and I have not "blown" a part. (Errors in my test program excepted!)

Dersu wrote:How much would a new/used mobo cost?

Check eBay for current prices (see answer to next question).

Dersu wrote:How do I determine the correct model?

Refer to the IBM Hardware Maintenance Manual (HMM).

Dersu wrote:Any soldering involved?

None. Everything is secured by screws or easily removed plugs.

Dersu wrote:Is there a good guide to this out there? I have an IBM pdf that lays out the basic steps of removing and replacing parts, but would like more...

You already have the best manual to disassemble your laptop if you are referring to the HMM. I am not aware of any other manual/guide which gives you more info than that.

A couple of things that you can try before replacing the motherboard:

1) Clean the edge connector of the SODIMM using a foam-tipped swap dipped in isopropyl alcohol. Cotton tipped ones will work but be careful that you don't leave strands of cotton behind.

2) Clean the pins of the SODIMM socket in the same way.

3) You may also try this trick to clean the SODIMM edge connector: use a pencil (not ink) eraser and lightly rub it across the gold/silver contacts.

4) Download and run a copy of PC Doctor for the T2x systems. More info can be found in this thread:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=27732

Run diags on the system board and memory. Also try memtest86+. It is an updated version of the original memtest86.

(Sorry for the long post... got interrupted by an eBay snipe...)

Dersu · #4 Post by **Dersu** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:12 pm

All great advice with something tangible and hopeful to pursue.

I'll let everyone know how things turn out. I'll get the new ram slice in a couple of days and hopefully by then I will have eliminated some potential sources.

Cheers

Dersu · #5 Post by **Dersu** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:29 pm

Thank you awdark and Ray for all the help and suggestions so far.

Not sure what to do now. I've tried the maintenance mentioned, tested ram with PD Doc and memtest86+ (with no negative results--single passes only) as well as the system board (PC DOC).

I did receive a new Crucial PC 133 256 ram module and it worked fine for the last couple of days while reinstalling my OS (many restarts without a hitch)--until today when I had a recurrence of beep error on startup. I will be able to continue and probably have (hopefully) limited trouble for awhile, but I want to be proactive and know what i have on my hands.

So, new data:

I tested all the various ram and slot combinations and made a table of the outcomes. Test was simply turning on and checking bios for recognized ram and/or PC DOC for the same under system information.

The short of it is that in most cases slot two doesn't like to work and either caused a error beep or was not recognized in the presence of another module, *but* it does sometimes work. I could be more specific, but brevity's sake and the fact that it seems so intermittent I will leave out the gory details--unless some one can tease an answer out of it I won't post the table.

One thing I did notice is that my old 256 has score marks from what I can only assume is the contacts (which are tiny, stiff wires I guess) and the fit never seems to be the same, but I could be imagining this.

This fact and going over the ram and slots with a magnifying glass has made one thing clear to me--I don't know what I'm looking for.

Time for electronic testing? How much could that run?

Thanks for the help!

David

#6 Post by **rkawakami** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:58 pm

From your description of the matrix you ran on the modules vs. slot position, it sounds like you could have an intermittent contact problem with slot #2. My understanding is that this is a common problem in the T30s but I'm not sure if this is true with the T2Xs. I assume that the problem is how the socket is soldered down (or not) onto the motherboard. If you can inspect the contact pins on slot #2 and verify that they are all aligned the same (none of them higher or lower than the others) that would help. I know it's easy to see the lower row of contact points but the upper ones may require the use of a small inspection mirror. Both require a magnifying glass and/or good eyes

. However....

Another thing that has me concerned a little bit is that the T22 normally uses (requires?) PC100 modules. If the T22 does not adjust its memory system timings according to the SPD (serial presence detect) bits on the memory module, then plugging in a PC133 stick may not be valid. Most of the PC133 modules that I have seen over the years are CL3 (CAS latency 3), which can actually be slower than PC100/CL2 modules in some cases. Since I believe that the system uses a 100Mhz front side bus (and can't be changed), I would recommend that you use PC100 modules and not PC133.

Something that you can do in the meantime is to verify that when both modules are inserted into either memory slot, it stays locked into place. Like awdark said earlier, the metal arms or tabs on either end of the socket should click into place and should actually extend just past the edge of the module, holding it down in place. Check that this is happening by trying gently to lift up the module once you have pushed it down. The 'score' marks are probably just oxidation on the pads. You should be able to clean them off using the alcohol/eraser method I mentioned earlier. I would assume that your new module looks nice and shiny so that one shouldn't be a problem.

Dersu · #7 Post by **Dersu** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:37 pm

The ram I purchased is recommended by crucial and in a sticky from the T2x forum here.

It is PC133 256 CL2.

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 0347c2c40b

I did try my best to check out the connectors. The bottom ones in slot 2 did seem a bit un-even on a couple pins. I assumed that was normal, but it did raise my non-expert attention. At this point I think I will cave and find a shop to look under the hood.

going to sleep defeated....

thanks for getting me this far though. also, learning about the availability and use of cheaper PC133 was a boon. Now if I could only get my old 256 *and* my new 256 to work at the same time!

#8 Post by **rkawakami** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:59 am

Dersu wrote:It is PC133 256 CL2.

Good, fast stuff from Micron (used to be a competitor when we were in the DRAM business).

Dersu wrote:...also, learning about the availability and use of cheaper PC133 was a boon.

Checked the thread you referenced and saw that the price for the 256MB PC133 CL2 module is $48.25, plus $4.00 tax. Hmm... I just paid $42 and $48 (shipping included) for 512MB PC133 CL3 modules off of eBay for one of my T23s. Crucial/Micron wants $104 for one of them. My last two purchases of 256MB PC100 CL2 (the one spec'ed by IBM for the T22) back in May were $35 each. I haven't checked lately what they are running at on eBay since all my 600Xs are now at full capacity. I have never had any problems with eBay-sourced modules since I run both PC Doctor and memtest86+ on them before accepting them. I'm lucky enough to also have access to bench-top memory testers at work but so far I have not needed to use them.

awdark · #9 Post by **awdark** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:32 pm

You know, if it really does seem like a memory slot problem, its probably the easiest to replace the whole motherboard. They are about $50 shipped on ebay and with the service manual not too hard to replace.

Dersu · #10 Post by **Dersu** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:24 pm

Ray, thanks for the tip on ebay.

I checked prices and my $48 (shipping, no tax for DC) at crucial was well spent. might have saved a teeny amount of money on ebay, but would've been more work and time (and also only pc100).

Awdark:
I have ebay'd a little and will look into the new board option there. I haven't seen my specific one there yet though. I think it might be worth it to get all 512 running! Running Photoshop Elements is killing me slowly. The real problem is that I am putting a real strain on my processor (900mhz) and can't do too much to improve that. Will try and get clearer picture of problem at local shop. with any luck it won't cost more than a new board on ebay!

question though: can I upgrade to 1ghz when I change the board? might not be worth it, but if it is marginally more and I want to use this as a server someday....

Dersu · #11 Post by **Dersu** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:49 am

Awdark:

I found the answer to my upgrade question on this forum. I should've searched first!

my guess is that whatever the cost a 100mhz extra, as other people have said, will not make a big differernce.

Dersu · #12 Post by **Dersu** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:14 pm

Well, seems that the new ram has not solved the problem. Could the error codes be the result of anything other than the ram slots on the mainboard?

I should add that when I get nothing but errors codes on startup I have still eventually boot up with just the original 128 ram installed after some restarts.

gearguy · #13 Post by **gearguy** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:36 pm

If you are particularily ruthless and uncaring for whether you mess up things more - you could always frankenstein it and solder the ram in there to see if that works haha. (Keep in mind that you could mess it up and removing it would require desoldering)

#14 Post by **rkawakami** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:08 pm

If you are referring to the 3-3-1 error beeps, then that usually means the memory is not being recognized (HMM says DIMM or system board). Since it seems you have eliminated your original memory modules as a source of the problem, then that points to a motherboard issue. It could be something as simple as a bad solder joint on one of the pins to the memory socket. It also could be something totally unrelated to the memory sub-system. Regardless of what it is, your next best bet is to shop around for another motherboard (one that hopefully has been tested w/512MB and comes with some guarantee).

Dersu · #15 Post by **Dersu** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:38 am

i get a mix of error codes--the one you mentioned as well as 1-3-3-1.

two good suggestions there; as interesting as being the proud owner of a franken-puter sounds i'll pass.

i will start looking for a new motherboard though.

any suggestions for sources? (aside from ebay; which i'll keep an eye on).

i have a 2647 8eu (900mhz) with board p/n 08k3977 / 26p8595.

vladb · #16 Post by **vladb** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:18 am

aaah..
at last, someone with the SAME problem !

i'm experiencing the same thing with a T23 thinkpad,
everytime i cold boot it, i need to cross my fingers wether it's going to load up or sing the 1-3-3-1 beep codes.
sometimes i just pull the memory out, and placed it back in, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt

funny thing is,
if i placed the notebook in standy mode, it would just start fine !
not in hibernate and not in complete off mode

tried replacing the memory, still the same problem !
pcdoctor also reports 0 problem on it.

any suggestion than having the systemboard replaced ?
it's like buying a new thinkpad in here if i'm going to replace the system board

ps.
which one is slot #1 when the notebook is faced down ?
i'm having problem with the 'upper slot' !

#17 Post by **rkawakami** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:37 am

vladb wrote:aaah.. at last, someone with the SAME problem!

Which goes to prove the adage, "Misery loves company"

.

vladb wrote:if i placed the notebook in standy mode, it would just start fine ! not in hibernate and not in complete off mode

This sounds like the memory/motherboard does like going through POST (power-on self test).

vladb wrote:tried replacing the memory, still the same problem ! pcdoctor also reports 0 problem on it.

Have you tried memtest86+? Although your problem does indeed seems like it is in the motherboard and not your memory modules.

vladb wrote:ps. which one is slot #1 when the notebook is faced down ? i'm having problem with the 'upper slot' !

When I use CPU-Z, it reports Slot #1 as the one which is closer to the PCMCIA cage of the T23 and Slot #2 as the one which is closest to the front edge of the system. Don't know if this slot numbering is obtained from the system/motherboard/chipset or if CPU-Z just decides by itself what to call each slot.

Dersu · #18 Post by **Dersu** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:09 pm

aaah..
at last, someone with the SAME problem !

Sorry to hear that. to me intermittant problems are worst.

Sounds like the same symptom and test results (nothing on PCDoc and nothing on memtest86+).

I have not solved it yet. I believe the system board to be the holy grail at this point. Just need to find one.

I read a thread here--don't exactly remember when--but it describes how you can carry your computer with one hand and stress the system board. I *used* to carry mine is just such a manner in my left hand right where the memory slots are. I believe this to be the source of my problem. Am anxious to open it up and dig around the board there to see if any thing turns up. On top of that sometimes I could induce my # 2 slot to work by applying pressure to that region of the system board.

I can still get my 128 stick to work most of the time, but the 256's will not run to save my life. In addition to this I pretty much never turn off the machine to avoid the cold boot.

Sympathetically yours,

Dersu

vladb · #19 Post by **vladb** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 1:08 am

yea, you can say that again, intermittent problem are the WORST !

i think i'm going to service the notebook,
clean all the inner part and stuffs !

how should i explain the technician !?
well.. this notebook of mine sometimes refused to boot, it depends on the star constellation up above.

sometimes it would work perfectly all day long,
if you're lucky you can see a bsod while working in windows too,
just rejiggle the memory slot to boot it up again !

*sigh*

Dersu · #20 Post by **Dersu** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:02 pm

Changed out the system board today. Let's just say that task was easy, but the results were less than fruitful.

With 128 it starts up, but with anything else it doesn't work. Same beep error code 1-3-3-1. I did get error code 3-3-1 when, after adding the 256, I removed and replaced the power adapter.

I have also checked the voltage on the cmoss battery and regular battery. They both are sound--3+ on CMOSS and 12.5 on the battery. The operating battery is useless at this point--it fails after a brief 5 minutes or so.

I also updated the BIOS--which I thought was up to date. (1.12)

So, does anyone need an extra T22 system board? It now seems I'm collecting parts...

More importantly, does anyone have any suggestions? Needless to say I'm a wee-bit frustrated with this at this point.

#21 Post by **rkawakami** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:54 pm

Dersu,

PM sent.

AbsoluteRaleigh · #22 Post by **AbsoluteRaleigh** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:58 pm

Dersu wrote:Changed out the system board today.

What is the FRU of the replacement system board?

(it is on a sticker near the miniPCI).

#23 Post by **rkawakami** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:24 am

As I have just passed this information to dersu via a PM earlier tonight, I'd thought I'd update this thread...

Seems like his problem with the two 256MB memory modules is that both of them had scrambled SPD information, rendering them (temporarily) useless. I don't know at the moment how they got messed up; only that they had illegal data in several important bytes. I have corrected both of them and they have been running memtest86+ in my T21 for 90 minutes (one and a half complete diagnostic passes) and are passing.

@AbsoluteRaleigh:

Is there a problem with some system boards that can/have altered the module's SPD info?

Dersu · #24 Post by **Dersu** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:54 am

AbsoluteRaleigh wrote:
What is the FRU of the replacement system board?

(it is on a sticker near the miniPCI).

sorry for slow response Absolute Raleigh, the new FRU is the same as the one replaced and recommeded in the HMM for T22:

26P8098

Dersu · #25 Post by **Dersu** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:18 am

rkawakami wrote:only that they had illegal data in several important bytes.

Yikes! Sounds bad doesn't it...

I'm sure I'm not the first to say this, but Ray has been an enormous help with my "memory problem" and is a real assest to this community.

Thanks Ray!

AbsoluteRaleigh · #26 Post by **AbsoluteRaleigh** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:50 pm

Dersu wrote:
AbsoluteRaleigh wrote:
What is the FRU of the replacement system board?
26P8098

Are you saying that the 128 works in both slots and the 256 chips won't work at all? If so, you need different memory.

I don't remember the details but not all T22s are happy w/ PC133. Aside from that they'll only utilize 100mhz anyways. I always use FRU 33L3070 with no issues.

Dersu · #27 Post by **Dersu** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:07 pm

hmmm.

I don't have the memory or FRU in front of me, but the first 256mb memory module I bought was the appropriate stick for my machine. It was IBM memory (100mhz) and definitely compatible with my machine. It started to go buggy after some time of use--in both slots, alone or with the original 128mb.

The second stick is a newer (bought a couple of months ago) mircon 256mb (133) that is recommended by crucial and another thread in the T2X section of this board. It is supposed to work with my machine and in fact did for awhile, but eventually failed in an identical manner.

I had the same problem with the 100mhz 256 stick long before I tried to use 133 memory so that in my mind is not the cause.

There is the idea that maybe these two 256's will not play well together.

AbsoluteRaleigh · #28 Post by **AbsoluteRaleigh** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:15 pm

Ok, let me make sute I am getting this straight.

1. If you use just the 128MB chip in either slot, the laptop works 100%.

2. If you use just the 256 in either slot, the laptop is cranky.

#29 Post by **rkawakami** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:31 pm

Len,

I have dersu's two 256MB modules and have determined that his problem with the modules was due to the SPD bits being altered. The particulars of the modules:

1) Micron/Crucial MT16LSDF3264HY-13EG4 PC133 CL2

2) IBM-branded (has covers over chips) FRU 33L3070 PC100

Both modules generated 1-3-3-1 beep codes upon power up in my T21, singlely and together, no matter which slot(s) were used. The modules were read with a bench-top tester I have at work (Darkhorse Sigma-3) and showed that most of the lower bytes of SPD info were incorrect. I was able to re-write the SPD bytes and have verified that both modules work in my T21 and that the Micron/Crucial module also works in one of my T23s (which I'm sure you are aware, use PC133). They have both been installed in my T21 (as a pair) running memtest86+ for over an hour now and have completed one entire pass through all standard tests.

Do you know of any problem with system boards which can cause SPD information to be changed?

AbsoluteRaleigh · #30 Post by **AbsoluteRaleigh** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:54 pm

rkawakami wrote:Do you know of any problem with system boards which can cause SPD information to be changed?

No...

T22 RAM problem

T22 RAM problem

Re: T22 RAM problem

Thank you!

Ok, what next?

still problems--any suggestions?

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