T21 boot problems

[netvista]

Hello all,

After a couple of months of not using my T21 i now encounter problems when i turn it on. Before i put it away for a couple of months i had no problems at all.

The specs:

Thinkpad T21
Pentium III 800 Mhz
512 Mb Kingston (2 x 256)
20 GB IBM travelstar HDD

The problem:

Most of the time when i turn on the T21, the HDD is spinning up, fans are blowing and LED's are on like normal....But the screen stays black.
Only very sporadic the screen comes up with the IBM boot logo and then it appears to hang. When i press escape i see the memory counting but it then stalls with a couple of weird symbols on the screen.

Even more sporadic, the laptop even boots into the OS (linux) but then hangs after some time.

No error beeps are received.

What i have tried:

Memory modules reseated
Switching memory modules
Mini pci modem card removed.
Hard drive replaced with another one
Battery en CMOS battery removed and put back after some time.
Attempted to boot without CMOS battery and main battery.

All of the above didn't resolve the problem. What i haven't tried yet is flashing the bios, but i don't have a usb floppydrive and i don't run windows....Is there any other way to flash the bios?

Hopefully someone can give me push in the right direction.

Thanks in advance!

[rkawakami]

Welcome to the board!

When i press escape i see the memory counting but it then stalls with a couple of weird symbols on the screen.

Any chance you can post image(s) of those symbols on a site somewhere, and then link to them here? Board rules discourage posting of large images inline with the discussions.

I know you said no error beeps are received and that you swapped memory modules but I would suggest running a copy of PC Doctor on the systemboard and memory (at the very least). It can be obtained directly from IBM's site as three floppy disk images:

IBM site

or an ISO image (CD) is available from here:

T22 ISO image (works with T2x systems)

or from my backup site:

ISO image backup site

I've only flashed systems from a floppy; don't know if it is possible to do it over ethernet, but if your system is not stable enough, I would not chance it.

(edit: 1/2007 - Added ISO image backup site)

[netvista]

Thank you for your quick reply.

In the meanwhile i dowloaded pc doctor. Hopefully i can get the T21 to boot up so i can run the program. I will try that as soon as i get home and let you know the outcome.

Best regards

[netvista]

Hello All,

OK, my T21 booted and i ran the quick test of the PC-doktor Cd-rom. It all looked ok during the test, but at 98 % (memory test) the T21 hung. Only way to get it to life again was by means of holding the power button for a certain time.

So i still don't know what is wrong with this thing as it did not complete the test.. I would say it is the memory as it got hung at that part of the test, however, if i pull out all memory, most of the time the screen stays black and if it does boot, it hangs by the post....just like it does when the memory is in there. It also doesn't beep, so it looks like it doesn't even detect that there is no memory installed.

Can anyone tell me a plan off attack? (besides trashing the T21 )

Thanks alot in advance.

[rkawakami]

Certain parts of the memory test can take a few minutes to advance. Are you sure it was hung? You can run the memory test separately from the rest of the tests (open Diagnostics menu and select the "Full" test).

If you haven't tried already, you should test a single module at a time. That makes it easier to determine which one has a problem.

I would also suggest that if PC Doctor does hang again when running the memory diagnostic, then run both the CPU/Coprocessor and Systemboard tests through several loops. When presented with any of the diagnostic tests, there should be a menu near the bottom of the screen. Pressing the F2 key will open up a Test Options window where you can change the Set Pass Count value. That value controls the number of time to repeat the selected test(s). After you click on that option and enter a new value, hit the Enter key and then the Escape key to return back to the main test window. Click the Run Screen option and the tests will start up.

It sounds like you could be having either a processor or memory problem.

[netvista]

Ok, i took out one of the memory modules and tried to boot. The screen stayed black and there were 3 short beeps followed by another string of 3 short beeps. I swapped the memory with the other module...de laptop booted and the beeps were gone. for a minute i got my hopes up but i ran the quick test once again, just to be sure...the first page of the test results said PASSED !. But i couldn't go to the next page.....i couldn't exit the test...i couldn't do anything...in other words, the [censored] thing got hung again.

I tested the memory in another laptop and it runs fine. So i guess i can exclude the memory as a part of the problem, which leaves me with either the system board or the processor. I am actually wondering if it is even worth to put in more time, effort and money in this thing. Unless anyone comes up with a genius idea to get this thing to life again..

[rkawakami]

The screen stayed black and there were 3 short beeps followed by another string of 3 short beeps.

Was there a last single beep as well? That would be 3-3-1, a typical warning about bad memory. Or 1-3-3-1, if there was a single beep to start out when power is applied. You can also try downloading a copy of memtest86+, a free memory test diagnostic program from here:

http://www.memtest.org/

I normally suggest using the pre-compiled package for floppy, but they also have ones for a USB key, as well as an ISO image for CD, both of which I have not tried as of yet. This diagnostic program is designed to run many different types of test patterns on the memory and may catch failures that PC Doctor will miss.

...i ran the quick test once again, just to be sure...the first page of the test results said PASSED !. But i couldn't go to the next page.....i couldn't exit the test...i couldn't do anything...in other words, the [censored] thing got hung again.

The next time you can get the system running, try selecting just the CPU diagnostic and put it into a loop of 50 passes. If that appears to work correctly, then try just the systemboard tests in the same 50 pass loop. Basically what I'm asking is that you exercise the system for several minutes in order for it to heat up. You could have a thermal issue of some kind on the motherboard or the memory.

I tested the memory in another laptop and it runs fine. So i guess i can exclude the memory as a part of the problem...

In all of this I neglected to ask exactly what type of memory modules are you using. What's the brand and markings on it? I would not agree at this point that your memory modules are definitely okay. This is based upon mostly passing PC Doctor and your statement that the first module your tried generated the beep codes and the second did not. There still could be timing and/or temperature issues that need to be excluded as causes of failures as well. BTW, which other laptop did you use to verify the modules and what did you do reach the conclusion that they are okay? Just booting into Windows? If it was another T2x system, did you try the PC Doctor CD? If it is not a T2x system, then I would suggest you run memtest86+ on that system with your memories. PC Doctor is specific to a type of laptop (T2x for your copy), while memtest86+ is not; that program can run on any PC.

...which leaves me with either the system board or the processor.

CPUs are fairly cheap for this system; probably can be had for around $25 on eBay. I would recommend that as the next step if further testing of the memory modules is clean and you are still willing to persue the troubleshooting. Everything I've suggested so far is freely downloadable software; it just requires some time and commitment to implement.

[netvista]

Hello,

It was indeed a 3-3-1 beep, but it only occured twice. I haven't heard it every time i booted it.

I am running memtest now on my other laptop (Powernote T2700)with the 2 memory modules which were originally placed in the T21 and suspected to be faulty.

Below is an actual picture of the memory modules:


http://www.peetje.nl/temp/kingston.jpg

Will let you know more as soon as i know the outcome of memtest.
I will also run the tests for the CPU and system board a.s.a.p.

Regards,

Netvista

Note: No picture larger than 50KB without a warning in the subject line or a simple link; thanks

[rkawakami]

Hmm... I may have to disqualify myself from further consultation with this particular module... The company I work for is the one which manufactured the memory chips on the module . No, I don't work for Kingston.

Given that you received the 3-3-1 (or 1-3-3-1) beep code at least once before and that it does not occur all of the time, means that somewhere along the line the memory module(s) were not recognized correctly. This could be something as simple as a bad connection along the edge of the module, a dirty module socket on the motherboard, or something harder to track down, like a bad bit in the memory array. Running memtest86+ (or the earlier memtest86 program) through several complete passes should be able to find such an error, but it's not 100% certain.

[netvista]

Hi,

Don't worry, there is nothing wrong the the memory modules...

I have done some extensive testing on the memory modules from the T21 on my other laptop (powernote T 2700) using memtest, and no errors were found.

I tried many times to boot the T21 to run the test of the systemboard and the CPU. But unsuccesful so far.

But i will keep on trying

[rkawakami]

Eliminating the memory modules as the cause of the problem (since it passes on another system), seems to indicate that your problem is with the motherboard. Could be as simple as a loose processor in the socket, a bad connection somewhere on the board or something that cannot be fixed without replacing the entire motherboard. If you don't already have a copy of the Hardware Maintenance Manual for the T21, you can get it here:

T2x HMM

It's possible that the CPU is loose in the socket or has a bad contact with one of the pins. You could try to re-seat it and see if that fixes your boot/hang problem. Since you have said earlier that you have already removed the CMOS battery, then we shouldn't have to worry about any additional problems that can be caused by removing said battery.

You will need to remove the main battery, the CMOS battery, the keyboard and the fan assembly, at a minimum. The HMM also says to remove the hard drive and the Ultrabay, but I don't believe you need to do that (unless you have an Ultrabay battery). Open up the CPU locking screw, but don't actually lift up the CPU (i.e. don't remove the CPU from the socket and touch the pins), then re-tighten the screw. Re-assemble and try to boot the laptop.

At this point, I can imagine other people saying you should apply some thermal grease (aka Arctic Silver 5) to the top of the CPU before re-assembling. That is good advice if you have some laying around the house (not likely). If it appears that re-seating the CPU fixes your problem, then by all means, locate some of this stuff and apply it. It will help with the heat transfer from the CPU to the heatsink/fan assembly, and thus keep your processor running cooler. If your boot/hang problem is NOT fixed by re-seating the processor, then you will be wasting your ~$10 on a one-time application of the AS5. Unless you have as many Thinkpads as I do, don't waste your money on the AS5 until you know your system works.

[netvista]

Well i managed to boot it up after trying it lots of times. I ran 50 cycles of the CPU and System board tests from the pc-doctor cd, and guess what....nothing found..all tests passed..

So i tested the kingston memory in the T21 as wel using the pc-doctor memory tests. The full memory test was done 5 times...without any errors..all tests passed.

And till now..the T21 actually works like a charm.....

I have no clue of what the problem is / was. But i am glad it works now, although obviously, i do not consider the T21 very reliable anymore

[theinze67]

I had these exact same problems on a 4 year old T21 and finally figured out the solution. The problem is in the poor manufactured memory slot connectors of the T series.

My solution is quite cheap (and McGyver like ), but works!

I took 4 small adhesevie rubber pieces and put them evenly distributed onto the memory cards. Then reseated the cards into slots.
Putting the memory slot cover back on applies tension to the memory cards and slot, thereby forcing a tight connection.

Believe it or not, but this works like a charm! I have had numerous reboots, "no start ups (as exactly described in this topic)", blue screens before and now it runs for months without any problem!

I hope this forum contribution can help others.

T-Man

[netvista]

Thanks for the tip T-man . Can you post a picture of your solution, to see if i understand it correctl..

Thanks!