Few T21 Questions

Message

NTL1991 · #1 Post by **NTL1991** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:13 pm

Hi. I was here about a year ago and got all my questions solved when I bought my T21 off of ebay. Thanks.

OK. Like I said, I've had it for a year, and I've several questions.

I want to swap out the battery for a new one. Can I use a newer model battery (let's say one for a T30...) and would it fit and be recognized correctly?

I have a problem with my display (cable Im assuming). When I start the laptop up from a cold boot the backlight doesn't come on. If the room is light, I can see a faint image of the OS. When I play with the lcd connector "collar". If I move the collar up and down the video usually comes on, but now it takes longer, about 2 minutes to do. How can I fix this? Is there a DIY guide for it? Is it common?

Picture of Connector Collar
Picture of Backlight Off on Cold Startup

Finally, When you move the screen, it puts alot of stress on the top portion of the plastics over the Drive Bay near the Right Arrow Key. Well, I opened up the lid fast and this broke. I super glued it and Is holding, but I don't want it to happen again. What would be the best way to fix this? I can get an epoxy mix and epoxy it, I keep just keep the Super Glue, or I can buy a new upper case... ???

Picture of the Broken Case

Thanks,
Nick

#2 Post by **rkawakami** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:38 pm

Battery for the T30 can be used in the T2x series systems without any problems (AFAIK). You will even get longer run times since it should be rated at 4.4Ah as opposed to the T2x battery's 4.0Ah.

Your delayed backlight turn on could be due to the cable or a motherboard problem. I have a 600E system that does this. Turn it on, wait about 5 minutes and the backlight eventually fires up. I've changed LCD panels (thus the backlight), the inverter board, and on the 600E, the Sub Card. The T21 is different in that the LCD cable plugs directly into a connector on the motherboard. If you download a copy of the Hardware Maintenance Manual for the T2x series, you can get detailed instructions on how to take the laptop apart:

T2x HMM

You should be able to remove the keyboard to get at the motherboard connection to the panel. Insure that it is plugged straight down and (I believe) secured by a metal frame over the connector. The other end is harder to get to since you have to remove the bezel around the LCD panel. I haven't had to do that before with any of my systems, but again, the directions are in the HMM.

You can buy a keyboard bezel on eBay and simply replace it. What I have found that minimizes the strain on the LCD and the laptop base is to hold down the base with one hand near the trackpoint buttons and then lift/push the lid up.

(edit: Somebody needs to type faster!

)

Website · #3 Post by **tfflivemb2** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:40 pm

NTL1991 wrote:I want to swap out the battery for a new one. Can I use a newer model battery (let's say one for a T30...) and would it fit and be recognized correctly?

Yes and yes.

NTL1991 wrote:I have a problem with my display (cable Im assuming). When I start the laptop up from a cold boot the backlight doesn't come on. If the room is light, I can see a faint image of the OS. When I play with the lcd connector "collar". If I move the collar up and down the video usually comes on, but now it takes longer, about 2 minutes to do. How can I fix this? Is there a DIY guide for it? Is it common?

It sounds like the inverter might be going bad, or have a loose connection. You can use the Hardware Maintenance Manual to show you how to get to the inverter.

NTL1991 wrote:What would be the best way to fix this? I can get an epoxy mix and epoxy it, I keep just keep the Super Glue, or I can buy a new upper case... ???

You could replace the bezel pretty inexpensively on eBay.

EDIT: Ray beat me to it by two minutes.

NTL1991 · #4 Post by **NTL1991** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:52 pm

OK. Thanks alot for the very speedy responses. I took the laptop apart and I couldn't get to the cable directly (I've been in there before to apply AS5 to the CPU/Heatsink...) I have a look in the manual now and see how to get to it. Now as for the bezel one like this should work fine, correct? I was surprised that they were that cheap.

eBay link

Thanks,
Nick

MODERATOR EDIT: Fixed link for easier browsing.

Website · #5 Post by **tfflivemb2** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:55 pm

Yes, that bezel should work just fine.

NTL1991 · #6 Post by **NTL1991** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:25 pm

OK. Thanks Again.

I "tried" to remove the keyboard bezel to get to the cable, but after finding out that the middle screw for the hinges was stripped and wasn't coming out, I saw that I could get to the cable w/o removing the hinges or bezel. I unplugged the cable and wiggled it arround and plugged it back in. It started up with a black screen again, but after only one movement of the cable collar, and the screen lit up..

Well, now I have to find out how to get that screw out or I won't be fixing the bezel any time soon.

Nick

Website · #7 Post by **tfflivemb2** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:32 pm

To remove the screw, you have to make sure that you are using either a precision screw driver that fits perfectly, or a smaller regular screw driver. Using screw drivers that are either too small or too big will quickly strip the srew. If the screw is already stripped, to a degree, you can still remove it with the correct screwdriver, with a little more direct pressure, keeping the screwdriver at a 90 degree angle.

As for the LCD issue, you might want to check the connection on the inverter itself, underneath the LCD bezel.

#8 Post by **rkawakami** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:39 pm

tfflivemb2 beat me to it this time...

NTL1991 wrote:I "tried" to remove the keyboard bezel to get to the cable, but after finding out that the middle screw for the hinges was stripped and wasn't coming out...<snip>

If you have a Dremel with a cutting blade, you can try cutting a straight line across the top of the screw head (protect the surrounding area with tape or cloth and try to keep the metal shavings from getting inside the laptop). That way you could use a flat-bladed screwdriver to remove the screw.

NTL1991 wrote:It started up with a black screen again, but after only one movement of the cable collar, and the screen lit up..

As tfflivemb2 said, make sure the inverter board connections are firmly plugged in. If you find the cable or inverter board is the problem, they both can be had from eBay fairly cheaply.

Silvas · #9 Post by **Silvas** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:30 pm

NTL1991 wrote:It started up with a black screen again, but after only one movement of the cable collar, and the screen lit up..

I'm by no means an expert, but this (to me) sounds like a possible short in the power cable coming off the inverter. If the connection is good to the inverter itself, it might be that one of the wires that supplies power has started to break and it's losing connection. That would explain why moving the collar makes it work as well, because it might be moving the wire enough to get a connection again.

At any rate, it's one more thing to check if reseating the connection to the inverter itself doesn't fix things

Edit: Well I guess not a "short" really, since it's not shorting to the other wire, but a loss of continuity... being stranded core wire, if enough of those strands break inside the jacket from constantly being bent back and forth, you could end up with this problem...

NTL1991 · #10 Post by **NTL1991** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:40 am

Hello. I'm at school now but I will try to find those cables when I get home and see whats what. That one time I said it worked only after one movement of the cable, but it went off when I closed the cover and now it won't come back on. I've been trying since last night (about an hour) to get the backlight to come on, but it doesn't want to work with me. I can still see a faint image of the screen like before, and the laptop works fine w/ an external monitor hooked up.

So my eBay list:

1 T30 Battery (some are even guaranteed for 2 hours!; I currently get like 45:00 with SpeedSwitchXP and the Main Battery plus an UltraBay 2000 Battery in.

)

1 T2* Keyboard Bezel

? 1 T21 LCD Inverter Cable

Thanks,
Nick

clayton.bigsby · #11 Post by **clayton.bigsby** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:29 pm

This guy is selling brand new keyboard bezels on eBay,

link

NTL1991 · #12 Post by **NTL1991** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:56 pm

Thanks for the link. I will try to get the LCD working now and see if I can get that screw out. Its a higher priority than my Bezel...

Nick

NTL1991 · #13 Post by **NTL1991** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 pm

OK. I just bought the Plastics from eBay from the link I posted. Cool.

Nick

NTL1991 · #14 Post by **NTL1991** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:41 pm

I finished up the inspection of the computer and cables. I even took the LCD Panel out of the case cover. All the wires are proper and look OK. But the backlight still doesn't come on. The inverter looks fine, the Wireing looks fine, the connections look fine. So what could it be?

Should I get a new LCD? $62 Shipped
Should I get a new Inverter? $10 Shipped
Other

Nick

#15 Post by **rkawakami** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:14 pm

Assuming you don't have a multimeter, the problem could be in several places (arranged in increasing cost of replacement):

1) Lid closure switch
2) Cabling
3) Inverter
4) LCD panel (i.e. CCFL tube)
5) Motherboard

The problem you describe could be any one of these items. With the laptop off, press down on the lid closure switch a couple of times. If it is dirty or stuck that may cause the delayed backlight. Has the backlight ever "flickered" before? That symptom can mean problems with the cabling, inverter, CCFL or possibly even the motherboard. Has the backlight ever exhibited a reddish-tint upon start up? If so, that's an indication that it's reaching the end of its life.

It's difficult to pin down where the problem lies if you do not have access to a multimeter (i.e. to measure the ~500VAC being output by the inverter board or to check cable continuity). The best bet is to start replacing components with "known good" units. Obviously, if this is your only Thinkpad, that makes things hard. Going by the odds, I would say that MOST backlight startup problems are due to a bad inverter board. These are fairly cheap on eBay as you noted. That might be the best thing to start with if you are sure that wiggling the cables does not permanently fix your problem. Be careful that you do not touch the inverter output (white connector on the end) while the laptop is in operation as there is high voltage present, if it is operating correctly.

NTL1991 · #16 Post by **NTL1991** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:36 pm

OK. Thanks for your insight!

- Not the lid closure switch
- When I would wiggle the cables collar, the LCD would "flicker" on and sometimes in about 30 minutes would "flicker" off.
- No, the screen has had no redish tint before.

I will buy an inverter now from eBay and test it out when it comes in.

If it was the inverter, though, wouldn't I not have a signal to the LCD at all? I can kind of see the picture in a light room...

Thanks,
Nick

Silvas · #17 Post by **Silvas** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:25 pm

NTL1991 wrote:OK. Thanks for your insight!

- Not the lid closure switch
- When I would wiggle the cables collar, the LCD would "flicker" on and sometimes in about 30 minutes would "flicker" off.
- No, the screen has had no redish tint before.

I will buy an inverter now from eBay and test it out when it comes in.

If it was the inverter, though, wouldn't I not have a signal to the LCD at all? I can kind of see the picture in a light room...

Thanks,
Nick

Given that "wiggling" the cable collar causes it to flicker on or off, I'm personally really thinking that it's a cable problem. I wouldn't think that a bad inverter board would kick on or off by the cable being wiggled, but it's not out of the question. Note that if it is what I think, you will not be able to tell simply by looking at the cable. The only way to know is to replace the cable and see if the problem goes away, or use a multimeter to test continuity on the wires.

It really sounds like the plastic housing on the wire is fine, but the wire inside has broken or is getting a bad connection between the wire and the harness on the cable.

Good luck!

#18 Post by **rkawakami** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:13 pm

NTL1991 wrote:If it was the inverter, though, wouldn't I not have a signal to the LCD at all? I can kind of see the picture in a light room...

That is a normal symptom of the lack of a backlight. The ribbon cable that connects the LCD panel to the motherboard contains the signals for turning on each pixel in the display. That is separate from the inverter, whose only real function is to change the ~12VDC voltage into ~500VAC for the backlight. If you can see a "ghostly" image on the display under normal room lighting conditions (and even more so if you shine a flashlight at an angle on the panel), yet it doesn't generate any light in a dark room, then your backlight is off.

Website · #19 Post by **tfflivemb2** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:22 pm

Ray is absolutely right. Your problem is power to the CCFL (backlight) in the LCD, not the image. There are 5 posibilities:

1. Bad systemboard connector for cable to the inverter.
2. Bad cable that runs from the systemboard to the inverter.
3. Bad inverter.
4. Bad cable that runs from the inverter to the CCFL.
5. Bad backlight.

The inverter is the cheapest solution to try first...and I would recommend replacing the cheapest parts first.

For the cables, you have to look VERY closely...as the slightest crack could cause a nightmare of a problem for you.

#20 Post by **rkawakami** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:46 pm

Excellent list!

In order to determine if the inverter is outputting the correct voltage, the only safe way I know is to use a multimeter. And even that can be slightly dangerous if you don't know what you are doing. Of course if the low DC voltage is not making it up to the inverter board, then that could be the problem too. I've never attempted to measure the output of an activated inverter card so I'm guessing it's a couple of hundred volts. Maybe when I get around to swapping some of my T23 LCD panels, I'll open one up and poke a meter at it to see where the DC goes in (I already know where the AC comes out!).

NTL1991 · #21 Post by **NTL1991** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:48 pm

OK. The new inverter should be here by Monday and I'll check then. If it still doesn't work, then I should get a new cable that runs from the inverter to the systemboard.

Right?

Thanks,
Nick

#22 Post by **rkawakami** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:35 pm

That should be the next item to attack, yes. If that still does not solve the problem then what's left is the backlight (not easily replaced by itself) or the motherboard (easily replaced but $$).

NTL1991 · #23 Post by **NTL1991** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 10:57 pm

I think instead of replacing the backlight, I'd get a whole new LCD panel... Mine has pressure marks on it and a few scratches anyway, even though I hope the inverter will solve the problem.

I will report the status when the inverter arrives (Sat. or Mon.)

Nick

Website · #24 Post by **tfflivemb2** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:06 pm

Well, on the bright side, there might be people here that would buy your old LCD even with the burnt out CCFL. Some might have the patience to go through with the backlight replacement.

However, I'll cross my fingers for you, hoping that it is the inverter.

Rex · #25 Post by **Rex** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:37 am

Been there, done that and still having what seems to be exactly the same problem.

Having gotten a second motherboard, inverter, cable and LCD, and the problem still comes and goes, I think in my case, the issue is with the cable. Howvever, all my cable work in the T22 that works,

Sorry; can't give any insight into this problem. Search the threads under my name and you will see the exact same scenario.

Rex

NTL1991 · #26 Post by **NTL1991** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:16 pm

Well, I got the inverter in today and it does the same thing...

Sigh,

Nick

#27 Post by **rkawakami** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:22 pm

I've just removed an LCD ribbon cable from my newest "project" T23. The problem with this system was the lack of any LCD activity (no backlight, no image); external was good. It was obvious after removing the keyboard what part of the problem was (upon removal of the LCD panel, I came to find a small, round, red sticker on the back saying "SCRAP"

). The right side of the ribbon cable (looking at it when it's plugged into the motherboard) has been cut about 1/4". It looks like the first 6 or so traces on that side of the cable deliver the power and signals to the inverter. Here's a picture:

45KB scan of T23 ribbon cable

Look closely at your cable in the areas that I have highlighted to make sure that there are no cuts or bends that could indicate a broken connection.

If your cable appears to be okay, then what is left is the connector on the motherboard or some other component on the motherboard causing your turn-on delay. Since you indicated earlier that moving the cable around or putting pressure on it seemed to have helped, then it could just be a bad connection. That however, may require a fine-tipped soldering iron, good eyes and steady hands (two out of three for me!

). Here's a closeup of the LCD connector:

117KB scan of T23 keyboard connector

Your T21 connector should look similar, if not the same.

NTL1991 · #28 Post by **NTL1991** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:26 pm

Wow, Thanks for all the info. I will look tomorrow at the cable and connector. Like I stated before, now the whole "Jiggle the wire" trick doesn't work AT ALL. It still works with an external screen, though, which doesn't make it a laptop anymore. If I cannot sucessfully fix this laptop in a reasonable time (a few weeks), I will have to part it out and buy another laptop.

Thanks Again,
Nick

NTL1991 · #29 Post by **NTL1991** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:03 pm

OK. I bought a new LCD Cable from eBay now (So if it still doesn't work after I install the new cable, I am going to have to part out this laptop... Maybe a newer T30 is in store for me?)

This is a scan of the CURRENT LCD CABLE. I chose to crop it down to the area where the cable moves when the LCD Lid is opened/shut. As you can see by my red outline, it looks like there is some wear on the protective "tape". If it wore down to the wires, do you think that could be my problem?

Picture

Thanks,
Nick

#30 Post by **rkawakami** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:10 pm

Could be. If you compare your picture with the ones I posted, the 'tear' is on the same side of the ribbon cable. Those traces appear to go to the small connector in which the inverter board plugs into. A broken trace at that spot could mean that the signals/voltages are not getting to the inverter, and thus not lighting the CCFL backlight.

Few T21 Questions

Few T21 Questions

Re: Few T21 Questions

Who is online