What's a fair price: T23 1.13GB/512MB/20GB/XGA/DVD-RW/WiFi

[rkawakami]

Hope this is not out-of-place here, but I didn't want to stick this thread into the Marketplace as it's really a request to see what people think such a system would be worth. No doubt many of you out there have seen my collection of T23s increase over the last couple of months and I'm getting to the point where I may start reducing some of my "inventory". Consider the following:

A good physical condition T23 with the 1.13Ghz CPU, 512MB of memory (assume two 256MB sticks), a 4200 rpm 20GB drive (no OS consideration for now), the 14.1" XGA screen with no stuck/dead pixels and/or reddish tint, a DVD burner (single layer; may not be an original Ultrabay 2000 model), and maybe the best part, built-in 802.11b/g wireless with the proper lid antennas. The only hardware missing from a factory-stock system would be the 56K modem since I'm replacing the original wireless/modem card. Such a system, thoroughly checked out, tested and guaranteed, would be worth how much to the informed users of this board?

I've researched eBay for systems like I have described above and which have sold recently but as the search does not look at the descriptions of finished auctions, it's not too easy to find and/or compare these machines. I've also seen a couple of auctions, and been a "casualty" in one case, run up in price by hijacked accounts which tends to skew my data . Obviously, if the laptop came with an OS that would make it worth more, but assume for now that I don't have a restore disk. Same goes for a single 512MB module instead of the two 256MBs and a dual-layer DVD burner; options that may be available later but shouldn't be considered for now.

TIA

[dorronto]

This is a tough one, Ray. I'm thinking 300-325, but with wifi and dvd burner and assuming overall physical condition is vg to excellent, probably 350-375.

I don't believe this is worth 400 or more..............

Again, pics would help when you're actually going to sell.

IMHO,
Ron

[Purcy]

Ray, go back on E-Bay and click Advanced Search at the top right of the page. Put your search request in the box and check the box Completed Items Only; you will get only auctions that have ended and you can see the ending prices. I wish I had some money squirreled away, I'd buy it from you

[Thinkpaddict]

Ray,

Since you are the seller, I would say start the auction at $200, and have a reserve of $350. T23s with WiFi are not that common, and if yours is well kept it should sell at that price. To put things into perspective, I acquired a T23 1.2 GHz with 256Mb and builtin WiFi (IBM refurbished and sealed in the box, 1 Year warranty direct from IBM) about 18 months ago for $500 from an eBay seller.

Another consideration: If you have a spare HD with better specs, I might consider replacing the current one. Might bring you more cash for your T23 at the end of the day. Or maybe not

Good luck with that.

[dsigma6]

The way everyone is talking here, you'd increase your profit substantially if you didn't load the T23 up with the DVD burner. You could easily get $350 for that machine, and sell the burner for $100, or whatever people on ebay feel like shelling out that day. Any number of people, including myself, can send you the T23 XP discs.

[rkawakami]

Ray, go back on E-Bay and click Advanced Search at the top right of the page. Put your search request in the box and check the box Completed Items Only

I always do that (advanced search)... what eBay doesn't allow for completed auctions is a search of the description contents, so really I'm left with just the title of the auction. I've done all of the permutations of processor speed, memory size, etc. using the OR search function and wildcards, but still think I'm missing many auctions. I have scanned through lots of listings to get a feel for the prices ($200-$400+) for my particular configuration, but I also wanted what people "in-the-know" would pay for such a beast. eBay buyers sometimes (strike that), many times don't know the real-world price of equipment.

If you have a spare HD with better specs, I might consider replacing the current one.

That's a possibility that I'm working on... something along the lines of a 40 to 60GB 5400 rpm model most likely.

Any number of people, including myself, can send you the T23 XP discs.

Thanks, Dan. I'll keep that in mind !

I'm trying to balance out the configuration so that it's not too much out of line with prices for new laptops being sold today. Granted, it'd be hard, if not impossible, to find Dell, Gateway, HP, etc. laptops with these specs. That's one of the reasons why I'm hesitant to install an OS or supply a larger/faster HD. I suppose I could drop down to a combo drive (CDRW/DVD), in trade for some of those other upgrades....

Anyways, thanks for all of your responses so far. I've still got some thinking to do about this.

[Bg357]

While you're all discussing pricing on ebay, I have a question.
Why is it that T23s are selling for almost the same cash as some low-end T40s? I've recently seen a few T23s go for over $400 and a couple T40s go for just under $400.
These were comparable models in good condition and not scam bidders! Who would choose a T23 over a T40 for the same price? Are these just ebay anomalies or am I missing something here?

[rkawakami]

Who would choose a T23 over a T40 for the same price?

That's EXACTLY what I would like to know as well . It's possible that the T23 is easier to work with (i.e. expandable) than the T40, but that would just be conjecture on my part. I have never used a T40 but I believe that there are hardware issues with that system (hard drive firmware, wireless cards and maybe others) that you don't see when swapping stuff out of the T23. Let's hope somebody with better knowledge on this point straightens me out.

[tom lightbody]

a neglected factor: t40s have a touchpad; t2xs (and some t30s) don't

I personally will never buy a laptop with a touchpad: as a keyboard computist, it annoys me that dragging thumb puts my words into the wrong place. Only rarely is this an improvement on my intention.

I have been stocking up, lately, on a few classic touchpadless oldies to archive for eventual use: 600e/x--thanks, ray-- this t22, even a 770z and ppc860: now...anyone got a design to share for a climate controlled cleanroom:-)

from sunny New Zealand (whangarei)

tom

[rkawakami]

a neglected factor: t40s have a touchpad; t2xs (and some t30s) don't

Ah, yeah... throw that in my face why don't you... .

In case you didn't see this: Ray's loss of sanity

I personally will never buy a laptop with a touchpad:...<snip>

I bounce back and forth between the T23 (touchpad-less) and my Gateway 450SX4 (touchpad) and I don't seem to have any problems with either system. And I guess I've gotten used to the Trackpoint; something I thought I would never do when I first saw them. It seems so natural now when I use any of my Thinkpads.

[Bg357]

I personally will never buy a laptop with a touchpad: as a keyboard computist, it annoys me that dragging thumb puts my words into the wrong place. Only rarely is this an improvement on my intention.

I absolutely share your disdain for touchpads in general but I haven't had any trouble with the IBM system because it's so easy to disable. It might as well not be there(disabled), so it doesn't cause me any problem.

OTOH, I think it's definitely a selling point because the vast majority of potential buyers are used to touchpads, and prefer them for some unknown reason, possibly a mental defect??

[macuser]

I purchased T23 P3/1.2GHZ/512MB/40GB DVD WIFI-built-in. SXGA14 for 325 and I didnt blink. Great machine..

dsigma6 wrote:
Any number of people, including myself, can send you the T23 XP discs.

^ that would be a great early Christmas Present. hint hint

[tfflivemb2]

a neglected factor: t40s have a touchpad; t2xs (and some t30s) don't

You can buy a non-touchpad bezel for a T40.

[pianowizard]

Why is it that T23s are selling for almost the same cash as some low-end T40s?

Those expensive T23's have SXGA+ displays, whereas those cheap T40's have only XGA. Ever since I started using SXGA+ displays, XGA doesn't work for me any more. I just got an A31p yesterday with UXGA and like it even more than SXGA+. Someday I will try to get an R-series with QXGA.

Few people really need computers that are faster than ~1GHz PIII or 16MB of video memory, but many people need more real estate than an XGA can provide.

[rkawakami]

Ever since I started using SXGA+ displays, XGA doesn't work for me any more. I just got an A31p yesterday with UXGA and like it even more than SXGA+. Someday I will try to get an R-series with QXGA.

I wish I had the eyes for that! The A31 I'm using right now is a 15" SXGA+. I also just revived an SXGA+ T23, but of course it's 1" smaller. It's HARD to read with my "near-half-a-century", nearsighted, contact-wearing eyes .

[pianowizard]

I also just revived a SXGA+ T23, but of course it's 1" smaller. It's HARD to read with my "near-half-a-century", nearsighted, contact-wearing eyes .

The first few days I started using 14.1" SXGA+ on my T43, I thought the text was too small for me but after a while I got used to it. SXGA+ is barely enough for viewing two pages of MS Word documents side by side, and UXGA is the minimum for viewing four web browsers simultaneously.

[rkawakami]

To sorta get this thread back on track... Here's an interesting one I just found that's close to my specs:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0043550758

There appears to be some discrepancies in the description. It's listed as a 2647-4U2, which IBM says is a 1.0Ghz/SXGA+/no wireless, yet they say it has a 1.13Ghz CPU with MiniPCI wireless. No mention is made of changing the lid, installing antennas or swapping the CPU, even though there are mentions of upgrading the original 20GB drive and 256MB of memory.

Here's the listed particulars:

Pentium® III Processor 1.13 GHz-M
768MB of memory on this computer (Maximum - 1024 MB)
14.1-inch, 16M colors, SXGA+ (1400 x 1050 resolution) TFT color LCD
40GB, 2.5-inch, IDE Interface Hard Drive
Mini PCI Type-IIIa IEEE 802.11b wireless LAN card
Original IBM 72W AC Adapter
CD-RW/DVD Combo Drive
IBM T23 ThinkPad Recovery CDs

The differences from my specs are an extra 256MB of memory, a CDRW burner instead of DVD burner, the recovery CDs, and the biggie, the SXGA+ panel. Let's assume for now that the system does come with built-in wireless.

Anyone care to guess what this one will go for? I'll say $409 including shipping. I've also asked the seller to confirm the type number. And no, I'm not bidding on this one .

[tfflivemb2]

They must have updated the description, because it says 1.0GHz, and there is no mention of wireless.

As an aside, if it gets the ball rolling for you, I'll offer you $275 for yours....yes, its low, but figured I start the process for you.

Oh, and for the record, I will send you a copy of whichever recovery disks are needed for this system. Just let me what the full model/type number is so that I can determine which OS.

[rkawakami]

While I was out in the lab taking apart my latest T23 (broken Ultrabay latch), I received this answer from my query about the eBay listing:

Hi there - We appreciate you bringing this to our attention. We made the mistake of copying the information from the IBM Maintenance manual which stated that all T23 have Mini PCI Type-IIIa 802.11b wireless LAN card. And, we actually copied the 1.13MHz from the sticker on the original box. However, we did go into the My Computer properties and discovered that you were correct in your findings...the processor speed is 1000MHz and now we're not sure if it has a LAN card (we used dial-up). It is a bit embarrassing to learn that we have been using this laptop for the past 4 years and don't even know all its details! We have corrected our listing to reflect this new information.

So it appears that this system is not close enough to what I may have later. And also my estimate of the final price is null and void as well.

Hold onto the offer for a little bit as I'm still in the process of straightening things out with the configuration. Maybe it was a little premature to ask this question as it may be a couple of weeks before I can nail down everything. But rest assured, I will let you know.

[dsigma6]

I'll offer you $275 for yours

$275.01

[rkawakami]

HEY! Come on now, the minimum bid increment is $0.05!

P.S. Dan, how's the DC jack holding up?

[dsigma6]

HEY! Come on now, the minimum bid increment is $0.05!

P.S. Dan, how's the DC jack holding up?

Working like it's supposed to! Just added a 5k100 so I'm finally running at acceptable speeds.

[dsigma6]

Ray- Check out ebay item # 220040318534. BIN price of $699, and I talked to the guy and he said they sell easily...and these aren't even sxga. I don't know his definition of easy, but I doubt it.

edit: I see that he sold one for $600, another for $5XX...this looks good! The specs change, as do the prices, but he seems to be making quite a nice profit.

[pianowizard]

edit: I see that he sold one for $600, another for $5XX...this looks good! The specs change, as do the prices, but he seems to be making quite a nice profit.

Yeah, some people do very well on eBay. Just last night, I saw a 366MHz 128MB I series going for about $240 and it was still more than an hour before the end of the auction, and the high bidder wasn't some Nigerian scammer.

[rkawakami]

Hmm... quickly scanning through the description seems to indicate that the reason he's getting so much for the system is that it comes with Microsoft Office (probably an illegal copy since the install disks do not appear to be included). Sure I could do the same, but I don't want to run into eBay's copyright police. I had a previous sale of an un-blocked scanner (i.e. 800Mhz capable) deleted from the system after the sale completed.

This particular auction also has PCMCIA wireless, not the built-in MiniPCI, which are the ones I just bought.

Thanks for the tip... I'll keep watch over his inventory and see how he does with sales.

[rkawakami]

<snip>... and the high bidder wasn't some Nigerian scammer.

Funny! On the auction I just won the seller made it a point to say that they did not use any Second Chance offers. Two of his other auctions I bid on and lost (by $8 on one of them , otherwise I would have had eight 2647-4NU systems), both elicited phony Second Chance offers to my eBay-registered e-mail account. I'm playing with the first one, stringing the scammer along by saying "Yeah, I'm interested... send me more info!". I've also reported both of the offers to eBay and am trying to contact hotmail.com, where the phony offers are coming from, to have them yank the accounts.

[pianowizard]

otherwise I would have had eight 2647-4NU systems

Eight???!!!! Why do you own so many of them? It has integrated wireless, which is nice, but why eight?

[smugiri]

Hmm... quickly scanning through the description seems to indicate that the reason he's getting so much for the system is that it comes with Microsoft Office (probably an illegal copy since the install disks do not appear to be included). Sure I could do the same, but I don't want to run into eBay's copyright police. I had a previous sale of an un-blocked scanner (i.e. 800Mhz capable) deleted from the system after the sale completed.

This particular auction also has PCMCIA wireless, not the built-in MiniPCI, which are the ones I just bought.

Thanks for the tip... I'll keep watch over his inventory and see how he does with sales.

I did not know this - does this mean that it is illegal to sell a machine with Office if one does not include the install disks? Could you please point me to the correct place to read up on this? A Microsoft EULA for example. I just did not know that this was the case.

[rkawakami]

Eight???!!!! Why do you own so many of them? It has integrated wireless, which is nice, but why eight?

Uh, re-sale .

For the ones that will be offered in the Marketplace, I will fully disclose my initial cost, which at this point is $230 each. That was the reason why I started this thread.

[rkawakami]

I did not know this - does this mean that it is illegal to sell a machine with Office if one does not include the install disks? Could you please point me to the correct place to read up on this? A Microsoft EULA for example. I just did not know that this was the case.

Well, I may be assuming too much here, but unless the eBay seller has purchased a volume license key for Microsoft Office, I don't believe he can be legally installing multiple copies of Office over all of the laptops he is selling. What I saw in his auction description leads me to this (assumed) conclusion:

both licensed it will not ask you to register

If he has legally purchased a single copy of Office and then installed them on all of the laptops he has sold, and is selling, then I believe he is in violation of Microsoft's EULA. I don't have a copy on-hand at this moment, but conventional wisdom says the Microsoft will not allow this.

edit: Here's where you can scan through all of Microsoft's EULA for each Office product:

http://www.microsoft.com/office/eula/en.mspx