T23 won't boot

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david0221 · #1 Post by **david0221** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:46 pm

Before my T23 died, I saw a "Fan Error" message once. After it failed to boot the first time, I followed the method suggested by ajaslow in the following post

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... light=boot

It worked. However, it failed to boot again on the second day, and the magic method didn't work any more. I tried to boot it with A/C alone, and it didn't work.

One more thing I need to mention is that my two years old daughter stood on the T23 several times before it died. Do you think this did hurt the T23 very much?

What should I try to make the T23 bootable? Any suggestions would be most appreciated.

#2 Post by **rkawakami** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:50 pm

Welcome to thinkpads.com!

Sorry to hear of your problem. Power-on issues are one of the hardest to troubleshoot from a "distance". Before starting, download a copy of the Hardware Maintanence Manual from here:

HMM for T2x systems

Basic procedures center around the following:

- Verify that the AC adapter/main battery/backup (CMOS) battery are functioning properly. If you have another T23 (or similar system) try the AC adapter there. If not, use a voltmeter to measure it. It should read 16V. The main battery around 12V. Removing the CMOS battery will trigger a supervisor password request (if you have one set) the next time the system powers up. The CMOS battery should read 3V. If any of these voltages are off, replace the unit and try powering up again.
- Remove all "extra" hardware from the system. This includes: hard drive, Ultrabay drive (CD, DVD, etc.), MiniPCI card (modem or modem/wireless), Ethernet card, all externally attached equipment (USB, PCMCIA, serial, parallel ports), and memory.
- Power up the system. For the T23, you should get a 1-3-3-1 beep code if all memory has been removed. You should also see all of the keyboard LEDs light up next to the power button, leaving just the power indicator lit. The CPU fan should also be on. The LCD should remain dark. If all this happens, then the motherboard is probably okay. If not, then you are looking at a problem with the motherboard. If you are handy with a screwdriver, multimeter and/or soldering iron, it's possible that you can fix it yourself.
- Power off the system and insert one memory module then power on again. You should see the normal IBM "splash" screen and the system will seem to hang for a couple of seconds, after which you should get the Boot Agent messages, with the last one being "Operating System not found". This again verifies that the motherboard is operating as it should. If you don't get the splash screen, try another memory module if you have one.
- Power off and re-insert each piece of hardware you have removed one at a time, and then try powering up again. My recommended order is: any additional memory that was originally installed, the MiniPCI modem, the Ethernet card, Ultrabay device and finally the hard drive. This is based upon failures I have seen which caused power on problems. You may find that when you insert one (or more) of these items, the system will not power on. You've then found the problem.
- Assuming that each piece of re-installed hardware still allows the laptop to power up, put them all back in and try turning the system on. If it now works, you probably have an intermittent problem, the hardest type to figure out. Most likely it is on the motherboard.

If you can provide any more information on what is and is not working (LEDs, fan, screen, hard drive spin up, system beeps, etc.) that would help to diagnose the problem.

david0221 · #3 Post by **david0221** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:05 pm

Thank you, Ray. I will try it out this weekend and let you know the result.

david0221 · #4 Post by **david0221** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:33 pm

Some updates about my T23.
Sunday morning, before I did anything, I powered up the T23 and it booted. So I was able to use the PC Doctor to do the diagnostic testing. There were no major failures. I ran the system board test 10 times and they all passed. The only failures were some DVD drive "seek" related failures.
Sunday night, I tried to boot the T23 and it couldn't boot again. Since I don't have a voltmeter, I can't verify the batteries. I remove all the hardware from the T23 as Ray suggested. When I powered on the T23, I didn't hear any beeps. Then I tried to remove the backup(CMOS) battery. It's so tight that I couldn't take it out. I had to give up removing the CMOS battery. Then I powered on the T23 again. This time I heard the 1-3-3-1 beep. Then I put all the hardware back one by one, and the T23 could boot every time.
Today morning, the T23 booted again.
It looked like that after I touched the CMOS battery, the T23 began to work. (I even didn't take it out).
Any ideas....?

Thank you very much!

#5 Post by **rkawakami** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:45 pm

The DVD errors may mean that whatever disk you had in the drive is dirty and/or scratched or the drive itself has a problem with reading certain areas.

The CMOS battery can be a little bit of a pain to remove, but it should come out with a firm, even pull (unless somebody has attempted to glue or solder it in place).

Even with both batteries removed from the system and powered only via the AC adapter, the T23 should be able to boot normally. I suppose it's possible that the CMOS battery is going dead and could be causing you the have boot problems, but I've never personally seen that happen.

Have you ever gotten a boot error message indicating that you need to reset the date and time? If so, then that would be an indication that you are having a problem with the CMOS battery.

Also, when the laptop does not boot, is there any visible/audible activity? Any of the LEDs on the keyboard or right hinge lit? Is the CPU fan spinning? Does the hard drive and/or Ultrabay optical drive spin up/blink? Any beeps? Do you see the normal IBM 'splash' screen? Is the LCD backlight on, but no text/graphics displayed?

david0221 · #6 Post by **david0221** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:11 pm

Thank you, Ray.
I didn't get any boot error messages indicating that I need to reset the date and time. I only got a "Fan Error" message. Yesterday, I test the CPU Fan several times with the PC Doctor, and all tests passed.
When the T23 failed to boot, only the "Power On" light was green among the 5 lights on the keyboard. I remember the Battery light and the Ultrabay Status light on the right hinge were also green, but I am not very sure. I could eject the DVD Rom at that time. However, no any beeps. I could hear a little noise, but I am not sure if the noise was from Fan. No IBM Splash screen. I don't know if the LCD backlight was on or not. How can I know this?

Any more suggestions? Thanks!

#7 Post by **rkawakami** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:31 pm

The fan error can be indicative of a weak CMOS battery. At least I've seen reports of this in 600X systems. I have not seen this with my 600X or T23 systems mainly because I pull the batteries and check them with a voltmeter. If they are below 2.7V or so, I replace them. It sounds like your CMOS battery may be on its way out. Why that would affect your booting, I don't know (no schematics = lots of guesses). Could be one of the voltage monitors on the motherboard is getting confused with seeing a partially-good voltage (CMOS battery should be 3V). I know for a fact that you can boot the system without any CMOS battery; having something in there that's between 0V and 3V might be a problem but I've never tried to verify it with a variable power supply. Hmm... sounds like a project that I should try one of these days....

In any event, you should see if you can get the CMOS battery removed, tested if possible, and replaced if it's below 3V or if you believe it to be several years old. Before doing this however, make sure that you can enter the BIOS (hold down the F1 key while turning the power on until you see the BIOS screen). That way you'll know for sure if there's a password set. Because once you remove the battery, the next time the system is powered up, it'll ask you for the password and it'll keep asking you until you provide the correct one.

If the LCD backlight turns on (but with no video activity) you should be able to see a glow from the edges of the screen. It may be useful to be in a slightly darkened room to observe this.

david0221 · #8 Post by **david0221** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:08 pm

Thanks again.
It's no problem for me to enter the BIOS. I will test the T23 without the CMOS battery and measure the CMOS battery.

david0221 · #9 Post by **david0221** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:02 pm

My T23 failed to boot again.

I removed the CMOS battery and measured it. It's 3V. Without the CMOS battery, I was still unable to boot the T23. Then I removed the memory, and powered on the PC. I didn't hear any beeps. I heard very loud noise. I guess it's from CPU fan. Actually, several days ago when the T23 was working, I could also hear the noise sound from the PC. When powering on the T23, all the LEDs on the keyboard and the right hinge first became green, and after a second, only the "Power On" light was still green.

Do you think the CPU fan is broken? Or the motherboard is broken?

Thanks...

#10 Post by **rkawakami** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:21 pm

If the fan is constantly spinning all of the time yet the system will not boot, then there's probably a motherboard problem. It sounds like the LEDs are lighting up like they should be.

Okay, one last thing before you rip the laptop apart...

While turning on the T23, press the area underneath the PCMCIA slots UP, at the same time pushing the front, top left corner DOWN. This can be done at the same time with the left hand. In other words, like this picture:

http://www.rkawakami.net/ibm_t2x/t23_boot_hand.jpg (125KB)

Use only slight pressure. I'd guess about a pound or two of force. The reason why I suggest this is that I have a T23 that will sometimes require this assistance to boot. I have not yet torn it apart but I suspect a loose part on the motherboard. Most of the time it works fine. If it fails to turn on, this method always seems to work (so far).

david0221 · #11 Post by **david0221** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:28 pm

Ray, thank you! I will try your method.
So, you think it's a motherboard problem. What causes the fan to constantly spin?

#12 Post by **rkawakami** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:48 pm

My guess is that the laptop is able to get some of the power systems up and running (fan being the obvious one), yet not fully boot. A problem involving a surging fan is known but that generally results in a completely dead system (i.e., it never "fixes itself").

Intermittent boots are much harder to diagnose but I'd be willing to say that the fault lies on the motherboard in a component that has come loose. It's possible that the CPU itself is not firmly inserted into the socket. A quick release of the cam screw, re-positioning the CPU and then locking the screw may be all that is needed. Or the problem could require soldering (and good eyes).

Your description earlier about the "excessive weight" that was placed on the laptop could have caused something to get dislodged.

david0221 · #13 Post by **david0221** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:58 am

Ray, I put the CMOS battery back and used your method to power on the T23. It did boot. However, after a couple minutes, the T23 crashed. I saw the screen slowly became white and the CPU fan became very loud. I was unable to power off the T23. I had to take out the battery. Actually, this problem happened once when my daughter hit the T23 with her toy two month ago. At that time, after I took out the battery and put it back in, I was able to power on the T23. However, I was unable to power on the PC this time.
Since the fan is very loud, do you think it's bad? Any ideas and suggestions?

Thank you very much!

Kaervak · #14 Post by **Kaervak** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:44 pm

This definitely sounds like the inductors under the PCMCIA slots coming loose. Especially since you got it to turn on by the method Ray suggested. Here's a link to a thread that has a good bit of info about the inductors: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=27245 There are pictures in the second post that show exactly what is being referenced. If you're comfortable taking apart your laptop and doing some soldering work on the motherboard it's a fairly easy fix, coming from experience.

david0221 · #15 Post by **david0221** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:21 pm

Thank you, Kaervak. I read the other thread and definitely I will have a try. Could anybody tell me where I can find the finest solder? Thanks!

Kaervak · #16 Post by **Kaervak** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:22 pm

david0221 wrote:Thank you, Kaervak. I read the other thread and definitely I will have a try. Could anybody tell me where I can find the finest solder? Thanks!

RadioShack should have a pretty decent assortment of solder. Or if you have a decent electronics/hobby shop nearby you can also check there.

david0221 · #17 Post by **david0221** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:02 am

Thanks a lot, Kaervak.

david0221 · #18 Post by **david0221** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:29 pm

Some updates...
I tried to remove the units inside my t23 one by one. However, when I removed the Hinge cover, a bolt was very tight so that I damaged the bolt. Do you have any idea how to remove a damaged bolt?

johnson · #19 Post by **johnson** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:10 am

What bolt are you talking about? You dont need to remove the LCD to get the mainboard out.

david0221 · #20 Post by **david0221** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:58 am

Thank you, Johnson. The bolt is the No.2 on page 87 of the IBM Maintenance Manual. Do you think it's not necessary to remove it?

#21 Post by **RealBlackStuff** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:02 am

Very carefully put some WD40 on it (spray some on a little dish first, then use e.g. an ear-cleaner to wipe the WD40 and apply to screw).
Let that 'soak' for a few hours. Then use a correct size screwdriver, put the laptop flat on a solid underground, and use increasing pressure while trying to unscrew the damaged screw. Don't let the screwdriver slip and damage the plastic hinge cover.
If that still fails, you may have to cut up the hinge cover and use a pair of pliers to get the screw out. A replacement hinge should be available through either the FS-forum or Ebay.
Good luck!

Edit: if the Phillips screwdriver does not work, try a small flat blade screwdriver, it might have enough 'catch' to get that screw out.

david0221 · #22 Post by **david0221** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:28 pm

Thank you, realblackstuff.

johnson · #23 Post by **johnson** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:52 pm

Ok, just looked at the manual and you do have to remove that screw.

T23 won't boot

T23 won't boot

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