T20 Blink Of Death Circuit Questions

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#61 Post by **rkawakami** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:22 am

Did you put any pressure or strain upon any other part of the motherboard beside the area around the fan contacts?

chooch · #62 Post by **chooch** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:30 pm

rkawakami wrote:Did you put any pressure or strain upon any other part of the motherboard beside the area around the fan contacts?

I don't believe I did. Removed the keyboard, removed the fan, cleaned contacts, put back together.

Dontknow · #63 Post by **Dontknow** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:29 pm

This is my first post, so hello everybody!

I own a T21 and since a few days an A31; by looking on Internet about what I now know as the BOD I came to this forum, which I directly liked.

I used to take my T21 on vacations, just to take care of my pictures the same day they were taken.
One of the first days of my last vacation in september it wouldn't power up any longer; by hitting the power button only the hd light would blip for a fraction of a second, while the power light near the screen would go out for a second.

I took the batteries out, opened the case, checked everything, but couldn't start it up. So I left the laptop on the table without batteries and without AC adapter.

Next day, when I wanted to try it again, I put the batteries in and pushed the power button.
Miracle! My pc started again as usual, and kept starting again every time I needed it, but I had to start up on batteries; if I inserted the AC adapter before starting then it wouldn't work. This was in the first days, afterwards it would start up with battery as well as AC adapter.

Now, with the beginning of school, my grandson asked me if he could borrow my T21 for school, so I gave it to him
A few days ago he told me that it couldn't be started, so I opened it again and tried once more to find out why.

This time it wouldn't start up with the methods I used the last summer.
By checking on internet I found somewhere the reset procedure I also saw somewhere on this thread, tried it and it worked.
After two days it still works.

But I wanted to find out why this all happened, so I kept looking and found this forum, began to read this thread and now I know much more about this fault; I thank you all for the information you shared, and I hope I can contribute to this myself in the future.

In a few days my grandson is going to get a Macbook Pro, which is better for his studies, so I'll get the T21 back.
When I do I'm going to open it up again and try to make some research myself, this time with the knowledge I gathered from you all, and for which I thank you all again.

This is really a strange fault, it happens, then disappears, then happens again after two months to disappear again.

I just wanted to share my findings too, hope I didn't bore you all as I think I didn't bring anything new to this thread, but I think that united we will find out the cause for this suffering!

See you later, my best regards,

Dontknow

SMA · #64 Post by **SMA** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:15 pm

Seems like I have finally fixed my T21.
All I did was updating the bios - and thereby also the Embedded Controls firmware.

I had been thinking about doing this before, but always stayed away from doing it.
It did not seem to be such a god idea to update the bios on a machine the were having troubles starting and once
started, it would shutdown by its own will.
It would not have been so nice, if it had turned it selves off in the middle of a bios flash.

I used what I had learned about the machines behaviour, and brought the machine into a condition where I knew
it would start and run for at least 10 minutes.
I then update the bios and it seems to have solved the problem.
I have been doing some testing during the last 2 days, and I have not seen any BoD's. It is working just fine now.

Should someone want to try it, than be aware of the risk in doing a bios update on an unstable machine.

Robbyrobot · #65 Post by **Robbyrobot** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:54 pm

I guess you had a special case, then, since I just attached a BOD T21 board to a port replicator with an external monitor and keyboard, found that the board already had the latest firmware (BIOS), refused to update again, and then exhibited all the familiar BOD signs. Sometimes it starts, sometimes it doesn't.

One thing I noticed this time is that when I have a partly-charged battery in the system and the board is hooked up to the AC adapter as well, the amber battery light first turns green when I push the power button, and than after a second or two goes out entirely as long as I keep pressing the power button. Don't know what to make of this.

At any rate, since the top of the board is totally exposed in this setup, I tried tapping everything, twisting all the coils gently and flexing the board at various places while pressing the power button, but nothing appeared to make any difference. So either the cause of this is on the bottom of the mainboard, or it's some weak component that only occasionally functions properly. It doesn't appear to be a bad connection anywhere, though, since I'm reasonably sure I would have gotten some reaction otherwise.

Disappointing as usual, but I'm no worse off than before.

SMA · #66 Post by **SMA** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:14 pm

Thanks for trying Robby. I appreciate yours and everyone else's help.
So now I just have to reverse the exercise and see if I can make the BoD symptoms come back.

phool@round · #67 Post by **phool@round** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:39 am

Does anyone know for sure that the BOD issue has been resolved yet? evo4jon seemed to fix his but because he reflowed several areas at one time he wasn't sure which one solved it. He hasn't posted in a long time about the current condition of his system.

I am ready to put a post up in the Market Place begging to purchase or for a donor. I just need one that is without a doubt a BOD poster child. evo4jon didn't reflow one component, power on check, power off, reflow the next component, power on check, etc. That would have pinpointed the exact component.

I don't blame him, I fix my stuff the same way, cover all the likely bases. But this problem is still ongoing I think. I don't know, is it?

Website · #68 Post by **tfflivemb2** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:17 am

Yeah, reflowing each component and then powering on would take QUITE some time. Let me check, I might be able to send you a base with a T20 system board that shows the BOD symptoms...

phool@round · #69 Post by **phool@round** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:05 am

tfflivemb2, your right it will take time but this particular issue demands it and I'm very patient. I have a hunch about this problem, it's a gut instinct thing so it *might* not take too long. Then again......

I would be grateful for a BOD system. Many in this community have helped me and I'm doing what I can in return to help the new people that join. I think it's about time to help those that are long established here. I have gained the skills.....

I have a hunch that this little problem might be causing the BIOS corruption too, I'm not certain but it seems probable from what I've learned with T23 boards. I can't post that because it's against the rules (for an absolute good reason) but I can say that I've generated the CRC1/0175 all on my own and can repeat it at will.....lol. Let's just say that I buy the bottom of the barrel, least expensive systems...... mind you that they all have been corporate off lease, disgruntled former employee systems...... I check serial numbers.....lol.

t20user · #70 Post by **t20user** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:14 am

phool@round, I can donate a BOD T20 board if you want. I have 3 of them, and two T22's. This issue was a hot topic for me about 2 years ago. I got frustrated and bought a replacement T22 mobo and shelved the bad ones. At the time I bought the BOD T20 boards from absoluteraleigh for experimentation but I never found anything. Now that my T22 is showing symptoms once again I am interested in fixing it, and this post is the most in depth thus far. Maybe we will find some common problems and it will become a sticky someday, and my BOD mobos will be worth millions, haha.

phool@round · #71 Post by **phool@round** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:56 am

I sent you a PM and thanks. If I solve this it will become a sticky, promise. Maybe I'll open up a BOD drive thru.......lol. We'll both be millionaires. I've not had the good luck of buying a BOD....... I can't believe it either! Maybe I've already solved it........ If all you have is a board then I'll have to find a shell, I'm all out of my usual stock, sold everything before Xmas and now I'm settling down to just buying systems for me to fix and use that I don't have in my collection.

I'm hoping to find an entire system so that I can rule out everything else. I'm more than willing to buy a system to do this.

augustosamame · #72 Post by **augustosamame** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:53 pm

We are a laptop shop, and we have serviced dozens of T2x over the last years. Hopefully we can shed some light on the issue.

T20, T21 and T22 laptops all use the same motherboard, which use the MAX1632 and ADP3421 chips for voltage regulation. T23s use a different motherboard and what I will say does not apply to them.

BOD issues relate directly to a defective ADP3421. It may be that in some cases (about 10%) the MAX1632 chip is also bad, but this is the exception rather than the norm.

This is a design issue, meaning that bad motherboard design has caused undue stress on the chip, making it susceptible to failure. The problem is even worse on the A20/A21/A22 line of Thinkpads.

The BOD may eventually develop into an STOP Post Task 175 - CRC1 error situation, in which the laptop's EEPROM has become corrupted due to the ADP3421 voltage regulator failing during a read/write cycle to the EEPROM.

It is our experience that in 90% of all cases, replacing the ADP3421 IC will solve the BOD problem, but all the other secondary voltage regulators will need to be checked too or the replacement ADP will fail eventually, sometimes within hours.

The problem lies in acquiring a good ADP3421 chip to fix the MB. Up until recently they could be acquired through various online IC resellers (like digi-key.com for example). However, they are no longer available for resale. Usually, a motherboard that has failed for other reasons (video problems, spills, etc.) will have a good ADP3421 with which to fix your defective MB.

Hope this helps.

phool@round · #73 Post by **phool@round** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:54 pm

Augusto Samame you are a miracle, a Saint, a vision from above. I think you deserve a key to the City! I'll be the first of many here to say Thank You for being so kind and generous! Not only T's but A's as well!!!! Unbelievable! I hope you have a very enjoyable summer....... you deserve it.

Robbyrobot · #74 Post by **Robbyrobot** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:13 am

From my point of view, the main problem wouldn't be so much acquiring MAX1632 and ADP3421 chips - there are a lot of defective T20-T22 mainboards floating around - but in removing and resoldering them to another mainboard. Both are very small SMD chips - 10 mm long - with 14 pins per side (28 in all). So you'd need special equipment for the work. It would also be nice to have some way of testing the desoldered chips before reuse, to avoid doing a lot of work for nothing. That being said, it's good to have some specifics on this problem, and I'm now looking forward to hearing from people with the appropriate equipment who can confirm augustosamame's report.

#75 Post by **RealBlackStuff** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:00 am

These Surface Mount soldering gadgets may come in handy:
http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/07/how- ... ring-iron/
http://www.seattlerobotics.org/encoder/ ... en_art.htm

These may not look serious, but heck, who knows?
Look in Google with "smd soldering iron" for more.

#76 Post by **rkawakami** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:18 am

After all of this recent talk about BoD again, I decided to power up my first T22 and see what happens. It's been stored without the main battery and AC power ever since the last time it successfully powered up (Nov. 2, 2007). Plug it in, pressed the power button and....

it turns on.

At least 10 times in a row in fact.

Getting back to something that was mentioned last Sept, SpeedStep setting was on "Automatic" and I'm pretty sure that it has been that way since I got the system in Sept. 06. I've changed it to "Disabled" so that the next time the BoD shows up (if it ever does) then this will provide another data point for this problem. I have NOT done anything to the system other than power it up every so often. I'll continue to power it up every day if I remember and see if it still stays alive. I may have to re-install XP since I think this is one where the install was interrupted mid-stream by a BoD. It's working enough that I can connect to the net and I'm installing AVG at the moment but if things start acting weird, then it's back to square one with the OS.

edit: 13 hours later... I just pushed the power button on the T22 and it showed the BoD again. I had left the system unplugged but with a battery installed. I plugged the AC adapter back in and several times I pushed the power button just once and each time, "blink". I then began pushing it at least 5 times a second and after two or three seconds, it powered up! And of course when I shut it off and tried to start it up again.... blink... blink.... blink..... :sigh:

Timoti · #77 Post by **Timoti** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:41 pm

Just started fooling around with my new T20 BoD board, and things look kinda interesting:

No battery, only AC, no keyboard, port replicator. Push the button, power and HDD blink, nothing new. But, it made a light sound. Disconnected fan, CPU, speakers, LCD cable. Retry, still makes a very light bip every time the button is pressed, around the CPU socket area.

I looked around, and found this little sucker coming loose. In fact it separated from the board when i touched it. Still BoD, still makes the sound. I'd guess that it's a resistor or a capacitor, but with my unsteady hands i don't think i can resolder it.

Any ideas?

Website · #78 Post by **tfflivemb2** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:42 pm

Interesting...I'll have to look at a few of my T2x boards and inspect that location further. I have a 30x magnifyer in route to my house now...

#79 Post by **rkawakami** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:08 pm

Timoti wrote:I looked around, and found this little sucker coming loose.

Looks like it's at map location A4 on the top side.

Timoti wrote:I'd guess that it's a resistor or a capacitor, but with my unsteady hands i don't think i can resolder it.

Any ideas?

I'd say from the size of it and since it appears to be connected in series with the larger component in your red circle, that's it's a capacitor. A resistor and capacitor connected like this is called an RC circuit. Generally associated with timing control or oscillators. What's the part number off of the 16 pin device just below that area?

Robbyrobot · #80 Post by **Robbyrobot** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:17 am

The problem is even worse on the A20/A21/A22 line of Thinkpads.

And I just checked out a recent purchase, an A21p, that for all the world looks like it has the BOD. The usual blink of two LEDs, no fan, no other reaction when the power button is pushed. I had taken it apart first to inspect the mainboard, but found nothing obvious wrong. No spills, no charred places indicating overheating.

Nothing but the MAX1632 and ADP3421 chips. Now I'd love to try out the solution of replacing the ADP3421, but the desoldering and resoldering work is way out of my ballpark, so I'll just put this one aside for awhile and see if I can think of an approach.

#81 Post by **rkawakami** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:40 pm

Robbyrobot wrote:And I just checked out a recent purchase, an A21p, that for all the world looks like it has the BOD.

Hey, nice to have some company:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=55384

It powered up last night!

Did a whole bunch of re-arranging of the disk and updating and installing software and even tempted fate twice when I powered it off. Wonder what it will do now since it's been shut off for a dozen hours....

edit: After much gnashing of teeth and wearing out my fingers pushing the power button... it's back to "blink". Left it plugged in and with a battery installed. Going to let it sit without juice for a day and try it again.

Robbyrobot · #82 Post by **Robbyrobot** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:26 am

And now I'm reading in the German Thinkpad forum that, sure, replacing the ADP3421 chip will usually repair a BOD board. And I'm just wondering why we've been guessing and discussing about possible causes without reaching any real conclusions for so long if everything was this simple to begin with.

Hey, nice to have some company...

You know the old saying, Ray: "Misery loves company"

Mine won't do anything except blink, and I've got it apart now pending further developments. I still don't trust my soldering skills enough to try replacing a chip with less than a millimeter between the pins, but maybe I'll get up my courage and try anyway.

Incidentally, someone in the German Thinkpad forum is asking about BOD in an X31. Never heard of BOD in anything but the T2x and A2x series myself, but can anyone comment?

Edit: And now one of the semi-pros in the German Thinkpad forum writes that he's replaced the ADP3421 chip in five BOD Thinkpads, but was unsuccessful in repairing them by this method.

So what's the score? Good question

phool@round · #83 Post by **phool@round** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:37 am

Robbyrobot wrote:Edit: And now one of the semi-pros in the German Thinkpad forum writes that he's replaced the ADP3421 chip in five BOD Thinkpads, but was unsuccessful in repairing them by this method.

augustosamame wrote:It is our experience that in 90% of all cases, replacing the ADP3421 IC will solve the BOD problem, but all the other secondary voltage regulators will need to be checked too or the replacement ADP will fail eventually, sometimes within hours.

"...all the other secondary voltage regulators will need to be checked too..." Could be the problem no? The ADP is still downstream from the cause(s). It might be coincidence the poster is 0 for 5 because of this. - "The problem lies in acquiring a good ADP3421 chip....." In other words the replacements the poster used my have in fact been questionable. Remember that virgin chips cannot be sourced anymore..... so where did they come from?

About soldering skills....... along time ago....... I used to convert cheaper PC hardware (SCSI cards) over to Apple hardware by changing the ROM chip. It's a fact that a PC ROM is half the size. The chips I replaced where 512K in size. The Mac ROM is 1M. I sourced the 1M chips I needed simply by adding 1024 in between the letter codes and doing a search. Voila', found it!

I used a Bic Lighter to remove the chips....... then resoldered the 1M part with my Radio Shock iron, flashed it with an Apple ROM flash program and I had a faster MAC SCSI card for 1/4 of the price.......I kid you not! This was way long before Ebay went public on the stock market........

So, nay worry about your skills, just jump in there and don't drink too much coffee.........

Robbyrobot · #84 Post by **Robbyrobot** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:57 am

Remember that virgin chips cannot be sourced anymore...

That's something I'm not so sure about. You can see plenty of offers for large lots (800+) from dealers in the Internet, and one of the two people discussing this in ther German forum apparently has a supply, as he's offered me the ADP3421 chip new for EUR 10 delivered apiece. So they are available, the big question is where?

So at the moment I'm way up in the air again, wondering what to believe. I'd like to see a few more success stories before I start jumping for joy.

Reo51St · #85 Post by **Reo51St** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:34 pm

Has anybody noticed that there is a high pitch noise on BOD boards???

It is coming from somewhere between the keyboard connecter and the LCD connecter.

Can’t tell what component, or if this may be an indicator of where the problem may be.

If anybody has noticed this and has tried to investigate this further let me know.

My stack of BOD boards keeps stacking up.

Thanks.

Robbyrobot · #86 Post by **Robbyrobot** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:44 pm

Has anybody noticed that there is a high pitch noise on BOD boards???

No, the only thing I've ever heard was a "plop" noise when the power button was pushed. Then nothing.

Reo51St · #87 Post by **Reo51St** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:15 pm

When power is pushed there is a little plop.

That is when the high pitch noise stops but comes right back.

With the keyboard removed and on a docking station I can hear the noise much better. But I can't tell exactly where it comes from.

#88 Post by **rkawakami** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:56 pm

If the main battery is still attached, disconnect it and see if the noise stops. If so, the whine is probably coming from the charging circuit, most likely a coil or inductor.

SMA · #89 Post by **SMA** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:43 pm

If you have a pitch noise from a BoD board, and the noise is also there when power is turned off, and there is no battery
being charged then I would have the 3.3V coil/inductor as the primary suspect.

#90 Post by **rkawakami** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:03 pm

SMA wrote:<snip>... the 3.3V coil/inductor as the primary suspect.

Would that be the one located at D5 in these scans of a T20, T21 and T22 motherboards?

http://www.kawakami-ca.com/ibm_t2x/t20_ ... legend.jpg
http://www.kawakami-ca.com/ibm_t2x/t21_ ... legend.jpg
http://www.kawakami-ca.com/ibm_t2x/t22_ ... legend.jpg

T20 Blink Of Death Circuit Questions

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