T21 giving up ghost. Can I save it?

[stephanpark]

Hiya guys,
I've got an aging T21 that is finally becoming more than I can do to keep alive, this forum has some very scrappy and resourceful people so I'd like tips and help.

What I've been able to salvage so far.
1. Soda spill, complete disassemble, wash and dry.
2. Fried inverter, replaced myself
3. Cracked LCD, upgraded myself
4. Failed CD-ROM, upgraded to DVD
5. upgraded Ram
6. Failed HDD, upgraded 40 GB

I've put too much into this machine just to give up now...so here is the problem.
It will sometimes not boot up after status bar reaches 80% on Win2K boot screen (latest SP). The motherboard completely freezes, no mouse, no Think light, no Num Lock. Pulling out the hard drive and pulling the battery (and power plug) allows machine to work normally again for about an hour or so...but then if it does freeze again, the 80% boot lockup happens.
Unreliable up time has relegated this to mere modernism paperweight.

What I'd like to do. Since my sister has the exact clone of this machine, I've swapped HDD with excellent result, OS and Software is NOT the problem at all. So...I'd like to know if a T23's MoBo and lower body will be compatible with LCD hinge and connectors of the epileptic T21?

I'll be honest, I look forward to input, assistance, wisdom. Pitch in, keep another T2X alive!

[rkawakami]

With that much effort into keeping the system alive, I can understand how you would want to keep it around for a little bit more. Here's a couple of things which you can do for free:

- pull the modem card out and see if that allows the system to boot normally. Located under the small panel above the barcode label, simply unplug the white connector and pry the same type of arms that hold the memory modules apart.
- if that doesn't help, try running PC Doctor on the machine. You can download a set of diskettes (3) or burn a CD to create a bootable disk which loads the diagnostic program. Available from here:

PC Doctor on diskettes

or

PC Doctor as an .ISO (CD) image

I'd start by running the CPU/COprocessor tests, followed by the Systemboard checks. Even though it sounds like the disk drive works in another system, I would also run the Fixed Disk diagnostics as well. There may be a problem with the disk controller. Ditto for the Memory checks; you do not appear to be getting a "blue screen", but it wouldn't hurt to run the memory tests as well.

Assuming that PC Doctor does not find anything wrong, but your system still continues to hang, then yes, I believe that a T23 base (motherboard and case) would work with your T21 lid assembly (hinges, ribbon cable, inverter, LCD panel). I have not done that type of swap before but I think it's possible.

[stephanpark]

My heart swells. Much obliged and long live Thinkpads! I will track my progress here in the event it will benefit others.

[wireman]

It might not be a bad idea to flash the bios.
The only thing for that is that you need to be able to get into windows to do that.

you could also boot into a Linux environment and see if it hangs using that. There are lots of bootable cds you could use, like puppy or DSL.
It might tell you if your windows installation is corrupted if another OS is stable.

[aditya1956]

It might not be a bad idea to flash the bios.
The only thing for that is that you need to be able to get into windows to do that.

You can also flash the BIOS from a floppy without going into the Windows. I think it is a more safer and predictable option. Ofcourse one has to have the ultrabay floppy drive. But it can also be done thru the CD_Drive by burning a bootable CD image of the created floppy via say Nero.

It might tell you if your windows installation is corrupted if another OS is stable

The OP says the HDD (already loaded with the OS) when swapped into another T21 (sister's) seems to work alright.

This means rkawakami's suggestion to "remove_the_MPCI_card_&_test" method seems to be the correct one. It seems to be a common problem and might have gone bad.


Thanks

[pudu1951]

[quote="stephanpark"]...

> It will sometimes not boot up after status bar reaches 80% on
> Win2K boot screen (latest SP). The motherboard completely
> freezes, no mouse, no Think light, no Num Lock. ...

Hi,

could it be you know my T21 ? Those are exactly the symptoms
when my T21 refuses to boot up. Okay, there wasn't any spilled
soda water and it don't freezes when working, but the problem
occurs if I try to restart the T21 too soon after shutdown at the
end of a long working period.

Perhaps it may have something to do with a "too full" battery
when starting.

Have you found a successful solution in the meantime?

CU

pudu1951

[stephanpark]

Maybe a more info for diagnose?

1. System freeze during use is different symptoms that listed earlier. Thinkpad Light, CD-ROM eject and LCD brightness buttons work...but OS related Function keys fail to respond such as Numlock.
2. System definitely freezes due to CPU taxing as freeze is triggered by Firefox startup (others not tested but pretty sure).
3. Can't be heat, the computer is only warm to the touch near the CPU but and fan doesn't even run on high speed during freeze ups.

rkawakami, I ran that PC Doctor and ran all diagnostics. Doesn't look like any red flags. Ram tests are excruciatingly slow but I'm not sure if this is a problem or not. I let the system crash again (just when I was getting into an article too) and quickly pulled out the modem card to "not let cool down" and the system booted right up. I'm currently testing the tolerance with a macro and will report back here.

Sorry pudu1951, I'm not sure if pulling the Modem card is the cure I or you may be looking for just yet. So far so good...but, can anyone let me know why this card freezes the machine after 50 minutes?

[joester]

I'll go out on a limb and relate things I've found with modem cards in general and OS lockups...

I fix computers (desktops) on the side, and can't tell you how many computers that are *completely* dead when I hook them up for first diagnosis and suddenly spring to life when I remove the modem card and re-attempt to power up.

My most recent is a ZT systems C-28 that the owner gave up on and gave to me. Simply removing the modem completely cured it.

Why? Well...
I think it has something to do with RF/EMF signals riding in on the phone or LAN cable. I insist that every computer I repair has a ferrite core installed onto the line. I have seen very few of those machines again. I have about 10 computers on my home network, and all of them have a ferrite core on the network cables where applicable.

This is only a guess, but I think that the modem card gets damaged and shorts out internally. The BIOS checks all installed hardware, identifies a defective device and refuses to continue to prevent further damage.

It's possible your modem/network card has only been slightly damaged, and after heating up a little fails to a point where the system locks up. You say it can't be heat, but are you checking component temperatures on the network card, or touching the surface of the laptop? Big difference there.

My bet is that replacing the modem/network card will fix it. I could be wrong, but that would be my next move after ensuring cleanliness of the heatsink and a fresh application of thermal grease. Think about this...
Your computer looks where when opening up an internet browser?
The network card or modem.

Also, I own an Averatec 3220, and had issues with OS lockups on it. Completely random, and affected by CPU load from what I could tell. One day it died completely. I opened it up to see if I could figure out what happened, and found that the CPU to heatsink physical connection was poor to say the least. The grease on the chip was only compressed on one side (the heatsink was not parallel with the surface of the processor). Thermal transfer simply wasn't sufficient, and the CPU paid the price. Not that yours is suffering the same fate, but have you removed/cleaned the heatsink assembly? It doesn't take much dirt to reduce the effectiveness of a heatsink. Worst case, that part is ruled out.

My bet is that replacing the modem/network card will fix it. I could be wrong, but that would be my next move after ensuring cleanliness of the heatsink and a fresh application of thermal grease.

Joe

[stephanpark]

Thanks much for the tips and experience Joe. Really lends meat to the theory that the modem card was the weak link. On the Ferrite Choke, I didn't realize interference could actually be great enough to fry modems and the like. I guess the NIC chips get overworked to clean up the EM garbage/spikes huh?

Wait, so this is a Modem/LAN NIC? Hm. Maybe CAT5 being twisted isn't enough. RJ11 is virgin so can't be that...still the machine hasn't had the pleasure of an RJ45 in a while. The shut down and misfired boots were all during Wifi PCMCIA fun. Weird, must be the whole FAX standby that I never took the time to uninstall from Win2K.

As for heat diagnostics...not sure if T21 has a sensor up in those nethers but will run PC Wizard when my OCD seeks satisfaction.

Again thanks for the tips, since this little guy is only a web surf'n and occasional XP test rig, I'm good if it runs consistently.

[joester]

These are similar to what I've got on all my stuff in addition to surge suppression on the power.

My T21 has XP, so I haven't played much with the FAX features of W2K. Certainly worth looking at though...

Joe

[Harryc]

I thought ferrite cores were to cut down on RFI (Radio Freq. Interference). How is it that they'd help with a damaging power surge, or are you saying that the RFI is in itself potentially damaging to a modem or ethernet adapter? I'd say a power surge is more likely damaging, and that damage can be mitigated or avoided by using a UPS or a good (.e.g TrippLite)surge suppressor with telecom line protection.

[joester]

I'm saying that the RFI is likely the culprit. I also cannot agree more with you that having a UPS to absorb/compensate for fluctuations is by far the best thing for electronics of all sorts.

If a phone line runs parallel to a power circuit where constant or repeated surges are generated (refrigerator/freezer, washing machine, ect..), you can measure the surges in the line with a good multimeter. Yes, a surge supressor with phone line conditioning would be a great way to "neutralize" the line too. My surge supressors don't offer that convenience, so I use the filters and have had no trouble. I should note that my phone line enters the house and immediately goes into a "network control" box with multiple outputs. Not sure who installed it, but it may offer line conditioning as well. I've never checked in to that, but now you have my interest piqued. it bears Ma Bells' insignia, and I'll have to see what I can dig up on it, or do the manly thing and open it up

I can only testify that most "dead" computer related issues I deal with end up being a bad modem and BIOS set to 'stop on all errors except keyboard'.

Joe

[dogma420]

If you need a mini pci modem/lan card or a pcmcia lan card I have one. Just PM.