CMOS Password Problem

Message

DoCKLenG · #1 Post by **DoCKLenG** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:26 pm

Im having problem with my T22 cmos i cant bring it to default configuraton by pressing F9 so I decide to remove the cmos battery and put it back after few minutes. but now another problem arise i cant no longer enter the cmos its asking for a password. i dont know what password because before i remove the cmos battery it has no password.

#2 Post by **rkawakami** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:31 pm

To clarify your problem, you were able to access the BIOS without needing to enter any password before removing the CMOS battery and now the system is prompting you with a lock icon and what looks like a monitor, like this:

http://www.rkawakami.net/images/bios_lock.gif

egibbs · #3 Post by **egibbs** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:17 am

Very common problem - you had a Supervisor Password set, possibly one that you forgot or one set by a previous owner. There was no Power On Password, so you never knew the SP was lurking there until you removed the CMOS battery. Now you need to get into BIOS with write access to set the date and time before it will boot, but the unknown SP won't let you in.

Unfortunately the only supported solution is to replace the system board. The SP is there to make the machine worthless to a thief, so by design it is difficult and expensive to recover a machine with an unknown SP. T22 systems boards are available on eBay and from http://www.indexcomputer.com/ among others.

Good luck,

Ed Gibbs

dickchailey · #4 Post by **dickchailey** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:08 am

Not having much luck RU
I may be able to help but where are you? Your profile does not say.

Kaervak · #5 Post by **Kaervak** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:03 pm

egibbs wrote:Unfortunately the only supported solution is to replace the system board. The SP is there to make the machine worthless to a thief, so by design it is difficult and expensive to recover a machine with an unknown SP. T22 systems boards are available on eBay and from http://www.indexcomputer.com/ among others.

Well....that's not entirely true. True you can replace the system board, and that is an option recognized by IBM. But the other method is trivially easy to do and dirt cheap. However we can't discuss the intricate details on the forum. All the information you need is readily available online, use your google-foo.

And as always, if my post about this subject does in fact violate the rules in any way, delete away. I don't want this forum to get in any trouble.

bonestonne · #6 Post by **bonestonne** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:35 pm

ebay isn't too bad for thinkpad boards...i managed a steal for $40...i went browsing buy it now/ebay express first.

you'll normally see them sorta high (100+) in the US...not sure about other countries though.

however, if you utilize google + time, you can save your money. just a steady hand is needed.

there's no "easy" way to do it though, so its your call.

superman_06 · #7 Post by **superman_06** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:38 pm

I was doing so research "finding what a eeprom checksome is" and ran accrost this and remebered this post. It cost $25, I am sure someone here has ran accross this company before, perhasp what someone else is talkng about

http://www.ja.axxs.net/unlock/

Garth · #8 Post by **Garth** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:36 am

I'm in the exact same position. I have a T22 which has never prompted for a password, but as part of an upgrade I needed to disconnect the CMOS battery. It now demands a password to correct the system date and time, and I have no idea what the password is. As far as I'm aware it hasn't got any sort of password as I've never needed to enter one. The dealer who supplied the (refurbished) Thinkpad insists that they double-check to make sure that there is no password, and is amazed that my T22 demands one. He is trying to contact the previous business owner through the warehouse he bought mine from but doesn't hold out much hope, so I will probably end up with an unusable Thinkpad and a very unhappy dealer.

I feel very angry about this. A new system board is more than the Thinkpad is worth and if I buy another secondhand T series this may develop the same problem. I've been really pleased with the T22 so far. I've fitted a larger hard disc, more memory and installed XP without a problem. I've bought an Ultrabay DVD re-writer, new battery, Ultrabay second battery and Ultrabay floppy drive, all of which will probably be useless in another notebook, along with the useless Thinkpad. I was totally unaware that this could happen despite being an experienced PC user and having owned a 600E for several years (in which I've replaced the CMOS battery without a problem).

If I do in the end need to buy another notebook (out of my own money), why should I now want to buy another IBM? I bought a T22 because the 600E was so good but couldn't cope with my demands. I feel very let down and don't feel I can trust a Thinkpad again.

Garth

Robbyrobot · #9 Post by **Robbyrobot** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:00 am

@Garth: Things are always darkest before the dawn. Check your PMs.

#10 Post by **RealBlackStuff** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:02 am

Superman's post above yours holds the answer.

Edit:
But I was informed that that website is no longer operating, as someone with the last bit of the original RCA.... as a name is now doing it for free.
Google is your best friend...

Garth · #11 Post by **Garth** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:19 am

I assume that a password was demanded because I unplugged the CMOS battery so password data was lost. Where is this stored? It can't be on the hard disc or in the SDRAM as I've previously upgraded the HD (from 10 to 160 Gb) and changed the RAM as well (from 128 to 512) without having to enter any passwords, and in normal use I haven't had to enter any either.

The dealer I bought the TP from insists that they check that there are no power-on passwords before they sell their kit and I believe him. I think now that there are 3 password systems in a TP22 - power-on, supervisor and hard disc. From my info so far, it seems that the supervisor password is set but not the other 2. How is the supervisor password set in a TP22? From the BIOS setup screen? I've never needed to get into this so that seems the most likely.

If this is true, then how this will stop someone stealing a TP is a mystery to me. I've proved that you can happily use a TP with a SP password and make considerable changes to it without a problem (and are not even aware that the password exists). There won't be many TP users who will want to change the CPU, so what is the point of it?

Regards,

Garth.

Robbyrobot · #12 Post by **Robbyrobot** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:55 am

I assume that a password was demanded because I unplugged the CMOS battery so password data was lost.

No, all that happened was that the date and time data were lost. The password was always there and now prevents you from entering the BIOS and setting the correct date and time. If the date and time are properly set, there is nothing to prevent you from using a Thinkpad with a supervisor password, and in fact you never even see it exists when the computer boots.

Where is this stored?

In the EEPROM.

It can't be on the hard disc or in the SDRAM as I've previously upgraded the HD (from 10 to 160 Gb) and changed the RAM as well (from 128 to 512) without having to enter any passwords, and in normal use I haven't had to enter any either.

That's normal, since you don't need to access the BIOS for such changes.

The dealer I bought the TP from insists that they check that there are no power-on passwords before they sell their kit and I believe him.

The dealer may have done a check for power-on passwords, but certainly not for a supervisor password. That would have been easy enough to do by simply attempting to acces the BIOS, which you can't do unless you enter the supervisor password (assuming one is set).

I think now that there are 3 password systems in a TP22 - power-on, supervisor and hard disc.

True.

How is the supervisor password set in a TP22? From the BIOS setup screen?

Yes. You password the system, or remove the password in the BIOS.

If this is true, then how this will stop someone stealing a TP is a mystery to me.

The point is not to prevent theft, but to prevent BIOS setting alterations by unauthorized persons - for example to prevent booting from a diskette or CD. And the HDD password is there to prevent your data from being accessed by unauthorized persons.

I've proved that you can happily use a TP with a SP password...

But that only applies as long as you don't need to access the BIOS (for example to change the boot order), and as long as your CMOS battery lasts. If the battery dies, or is removed, the computer is useless unless you know the supervisor password.

#13 Post by **rkawakami** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:57 am

Unplugging the CMOS battery would cause a loss of the system real-time clock (RTC). The next time the system is booted, the BIOS would have noted this condition and forces you into the setup screen to enter the correct date and time. IF there was a supervisor password, it would have been triggered by this event. IF the previous owner attempted to enter the BIOS by pressing the F1 key at boot, they should have seen a lock icon appear on the screen. IF the "Lock BIOS settings" option was set to DISABLED, then you can simply press the Enter key in response to the password prompt and you can enter BIOS and change some items but not others.

The system may have been set this way and the dealer may have done exactly this; pressing the Enter key in response to the lock icon WILL allow you to access the BIOS. Everything seems to work normally. However, since you removed the backup battery, the system automatically tries to enter BIOS and asks you for the password. Pressing the Enter key will NOT allow you in. You MUST provide the correct password.

In order for the dealer to check for a power-on password, they may simply boot the system and if it doesn't present them with a lock icon, then that means there's no power-on password. If there was one, then removing the backup battery will remove the power-on password. However, it would have triggered the BIOS password. So it's possible the dealer saw nothing when turning the system on; ergo, no power-on password.

Why allow you to set a BIOS password and then simply bypass it? I don't know. Perhaps it's to allow the user to view the settings but not change some of the important features like enabling flashing of the BIOS.

The supervisor password is not really meant to prevent theft of the system. It allows companies to lock-down settings/features which they may not want employees/users to fool with. Yes you can perform hardware changes (CPU, memory, etc.) without having to deal with the supervisor BIOS or even knowing that it exists.

For theft prevention, the hard drive password is the best built-in defense. That will lock out access to the most important thing on your laptop: the data.

Please note the forum rule about openly discussing supervisor/BIOS password cracking; it is not allowed.

edit: I see that Robbyrobot was also answering this at the same time, thanks. One thing I want to stress again... it IS possible to have a supervisor password, boot the system, press the F1 key, get a lock icon, press the Enter key and access the BIOS. I've just done this on a T21. The dealer may have been telling you the truth from his standpoint.

Robbyrobot · #14 Post by **Robbyrobot** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:14 am

it IS possible to have a supervisor password, boot the system, press the F1 key, get a lock icon, press the Enter key and access the BIOS. I've just done this on a T21.

I hadn't realized that. And can you change the settings, or is that just a read-only access? If you can change the settings, the value of a supervisor password would seem very questionable indeed.

#15 Post by **rkawakami** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:21 am

Some settings can be changed. Enabling/disabling the serial port or parallel port can occur. As you pointed out, you can't change the order of the boot devices. This is with the "Lock BIOS settings" disabled in the password menu. If it's enabled, you can still press the Enter key at the prompt but you get a message at the top of the BIOS setup screen which basically says you need a supervisor to get access to the BIOS settings, so that's the "read-only" mode.

BTW, this is with BIOS version 1.14 (KZET32WW) on a 850Mhz T21 if it makes any difference.

edit: Here's the list of features from the BIOS screen which are locked out when the supervisor password is enabled:

- Boot priority lists
- RFID related items
- Network related items
- Processor serial number
- Date & Time

Garth · #16 Post by **Garth** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:55 pm

Thanks to all who have responed to my TP problem which started when I attempted to change the existing 800 processor to a 900. A further point:

rkawakami wrote: edit: Here's the list of features from the BIOS screen which are locked out when the supervisor password is enabled:

- Boot priority lists
- RFID related items
- Network related items
- Processor serial number
- Date & Time

Does this mean that if and when I eventually can get into the setup BIOS, if I then swap the processors, do I need to enter the serial number of the replacement processor in the BIOS before the TP will boot correctly, or is it auto-detected? There are 3 numbers on the replacement CPU:
1) one follows "FRU:SEE " and is about 20 characters on a white label
2) the second is a set of 8 numbers and letters above the processor speed
3) there is also "SL53T" following the numbers (2) above

Regards,

Garth.

#17 Post by **rkawakami** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:07 pm

No, the processor ID option simply enables the reporting of the CPU ID to the OS. You do not need to enter any information into the BIOS when swapping out a CPU. I'm not totally sure, but I believe something like this would be used by software which is designed to be locked into running on only one system (via checking the CPU serial number). If this is true, then your system will boot and operate fine but that program won't run because it thinks its running on another computer.

Garth · #18 Post by **Garth** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:04 pm

Thanks to all who replied.

For the record, I've now got my (supervisor) password problem fixed so that I've been able to access my TP. I then checked in the BIOS and the CPU serial number option was set to "disabled", so I went ahead and changed the 800 for a 900 CPU and this went perfectly.

Again - many thanks for all your help!

tom_k · #19 Post by **tom_k** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:52 pm

Nice to read that its running again, but have you also changed the fan assembly?
I estimate your original fan is FRU 08K7268 or optional
the 900/1000 MHz T22 fan has FRU 26P9317

It might not be really necessary if you do not use to run the T22 for several hours under full cpu load in a warm environment,
but the heavier fan with the 900cpu is a really cool 'n quiet combination.

rkawakami wrote:Yes you can perform hardware changes (CPU, memory, etc.) without having to deal with the supervisor BIOS or even knowing that it exists.

though it might only fit into the thread but not the T2&3 forum
i would like to add that my first contact with an SVP (being younger and innocent;)
was a ThinkPad 390e from a respectable ebay reseller:
booting the machine but not checking it for set passwords everything seemed to be fine
and i put more ram inside (witout removing bios battery)
that caused the SVP promt to appear upon next boot.
Dont know if this is a special behaviour of the 390e model
and the T2 dont "react" if ram size is changed

tom_k
TP240x 256MB internal5213a momentus.2

#20 Post by **rkawakami** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:15 am

My usual T23 system has both SVP and HD passwords set. It's normally loaded with 1024MB. I powered it off, removed one of the 512MB modules and re-started it. Only the HD password popped up. I re-installed the module and started it up a second time and again only the HD password was requested. Based upon what I know of the BIOS and what I've seen playing around with these systems, and since the OP's problem concerns a T22, I would assume that replacing the CPU would also not trigger an SVP if one was set, as I have not actually changed a T2x CPU on a system which has had an SVP (yet). That might change in a couple of days after I look at several bare T23 motherboards. I'll have an opportunity then to swap out the CPU and see what happens. I guess it's possible that other systems could force a change in the BIOS when something like the memory map is altered but as far as I've seen with the T2x systems, that's not the case.