Anyone thinking of getting the Macbook Pro vs. T60P

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ageyfman · #1 Post by **ageyfman** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:38 pm

I am not sure any of you heard, but they finally got Windows XP to run on a MacBook Pro. I am having a crisis - I ordered a T60p with all the trimmings - 2 gig ram, 100gb 7200rpm hd, 9 cell battery, 2.0 ghz - and I got a sweet deal on it as well. However, I am extremely peeved at the wait time (ship date is 4/11, I order on 2/22).

Now, the MacBook Pro offers almost no advantages over the previously mentioned beast (the proc will be the same, the HD the same, the ram is a bit less, video is arguably better for my needs - 256 X1600 vs. 256 V5200), but, the form factor as well as the look of the laptop are so hot, it's not even worth talking about it. Don't get me wrong, I love the matte black finish - but the MacBook is just a hot looking machine.

Of course, the driver issue is a bit of a pain, however, I think it would be resolved fairly quickly AND I am pretty savvy, so I don't think it will be an issue. I need XP a ton, as my business is centered around .NET solutions, (OSX would be great too, for testing and having UNIX for java stuff - although I prefer .NET).

So, the question is, any of you guys feel the same way? Any pros/cons? Anything new to offer?

pundit · #2 Post by **pundit** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:02 pm

I was in a similar crisis 1.5 months ago, and finally cancelled my MBP order and ordered a T60p instead. It has nothing to do with "certified drivers", but I'm a free software zealot and I decided that Apple is not as open source friendly as I'd like them to be.

Here are my thoughts on the matter.

#3 Post by **daeojkim** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:03 pm

if your business requires XP, I would go with T60p. It sounds like your business depends much on it. Why risk the efficiency of your business for the look of the computer?

If it was just for personal use where you can put up with some lack of drivers or support, then go for the model that you would prefer to look at.

Get your priorities straight. The matter of fact is that some may say that you can run XP perfectly on macPro if you do this and that and blah blah blah, but it will never be as good as XP running on a machine designed to run it ground up.

lithium726 · #4 Post by **lithium726** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:27 pm

not only does the macbook look hot (according to you...) but it runs hot as hell, or so i have heard. you also have palmrest wear and other crap to worry about with the macbook... get the T60.

you can have XP and OSX on either of them, so it comes down to which one will last you longer and be more reliable... and im gonna say the T60p is going to do that.

pundit · #5 Post by **pundit** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:34 pm

Yes, after lithum's post I have another small bit to say.

I am (quite) a bit of a klutz, and I regularly drop laptops/spill stuff on them and so on. I believe stuff like the roll-cage and the fluid drain holes were designed with people like me in mind. It sure beats a dented aluminium sheet any day!

#6 Post by **archer6** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:44 pm

It's a no brainer, get them both

I must admit that I did that, as I like the Mac for fun like iTunes/iPod. And casual work in Word/Excel etc. I'm really enjoying Tiger 10.4.5.

But for my serious mission critical daily work the only computer is a ThinkPad T60.

Kind of like cars, there is no ONE that fits the bill for everything.

ageyfman · #7 Post by **ageyfman** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:56 pm

I also like the IBM warranty a ton - I've had several repairs by IBM, and they were always timely and professional. As far as XP for business - it won't be too bad, as I have several Win 2000/2003 servers running, so nothing would be stopped.

Really, though, it's the shipping - I really need something soon, my laptop is pretty slow, and I don't want to wait another month, alas, I think I may have to....

ageyfman · #8 Post by **ageyfman** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:59 pm

I've done the whole multiple-PC thing, and I can't say that I like it. I have a ton of utility PCs all over my place - a media center, a storage server, a few development servers, database, etc... but, for my personal machine, I can only deal w/ one at a time, it's supreme waste of money to have something for JUST entertainment - the MacBook Pro and the T60 can run iTunes, iPod as well as anything else equally well, so why spend the extra 3k? Go on vacation instead!

But I do agree with you that for mission critical stuff (like my business), I wouldn't want anything that isn't supported 100%

Sottozero · #9 Post by **Sottozero** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:51 pm

I'm dealing with the same options -- T60p vs. MBP.

I ordered the T60p back on 3/3, and it shipped today. When I get it, I'll put it through its paces and decide whether or not I'll be keeping it. If not, I'll get the next-gen MBP.

I sold a dual G5 for a high-end portable, because my personal theory is that laptops are getting so powerful that the performance gap is essentially bridged for 90% of computing applications and users.

So, I'm dying to get my T60p, but I had a bad experience with a first-gen T40, so I'm being somewhat reserved.

We shall see.

rocketman · #10 Post by **rocketman** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 5:30 pm

I'm still sitting on the fence about this and I've gotta get off! I have a price quote for a T60p 200794U thats good until 3/19. I love my T42 but hated the T43p, it was so loud it was completely annoying. I've never had any issues with my Powerbooks other than shorter battery life than I would have liked, the long battery life of the T60p is a real draw for me. Also in the T60p's favor is the Verizon EVDO, if I can actually be in a car and be connected to the internet at a decent speed that would be great.
The positives of the MacBook Pro are well know, it's great looking, thin, amazing display, OS X and now as fast as any notebook PC. It is a tough decision.

Sottozero · #11 Post by **Sottozero** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 5:35 pm

rocketman wrote:I'm still sitting on the fence about this and I've gotta get off! I have a price quote for a T60p 200794U thats good until 3/19. I love my T42 but hated the T43p, it was so loud it was completely annoying. I've never had any issues with my Powerbooks other than shorter battery life than I would have liked, the long battery life of the T60p is a real draw for me. Also in the T60p's favor is the Verizon EVDO, if I can actually be in a car and be connected to the internet at a decent speed that would be great.
The positives of the MacBook Pro are well know, it's great looking, thin, amazing display, OS X and now as fast as any notebook PC. It is a tough decision.

It is a tough call. See my post a few above this one.

I look at it this way: if I get my T60p within a day or two, I can play with it and evaluate it. If I don't like it, back it goes, no questions asked.

Unfortunately, Apple doesn't give you the same option on a CTO machine -- you buy it, you're stuck with it: you can't return it for a refund.

So, I'll give the T60p its chance and see how it goes. I couldn't do that with the MBP.

RaysMD · #12 Post by **RaysMD** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:02 pm

yea, but wait until I dual boot the T60p with OSX.

I'm going to love it!

Someone should buy both and do a review!

ageyfman · #13 Post by **ageyfman** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:32 pm

The OSX dual boot should be pretty slick - I'd love to have a unix box to test on - although I'd LOVE if there was a true OSX runtime for windows - that would "borrow" one of the cores and run parallel to Windows - or even virtualized in a very effective and efficient manner...

poloniumhalos · #14 Post by **poloniumhalos** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:02 am

I'm dual booting XP and OSX 10.4.5 on my R50p now (same board as T41p-T42p)
10.4.5 was a no brainer for my R50p, most things work by default, no centre button scroll yet though.
Fire GL T2 was detected as a 9600.
For native resolution, at boot just type in "Graphics Mode"="1600x1200x32"
Most things run sweet except for the occasional safari crash.

jeremivw · #15 Post by **jeremivw** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 11:06 am

I'm not bashing this thread, but it seems a little funny to me that a comparison would even be made between these two laptops.

I've used Apple as far back as the early 80s (IIe, MAC, MAC II, etc.) so I really am an apple fan. I think what the Jobs and Wozniak did was incredible. And they (Jobs) continue to succeed in multiple markets and shape those markets (iPod). So...I'm not Apple bashing either when I say...

It's not a fair comparison. I can hold up my T60p (when I get it

) above 10,000 other IBM PC based laptops on the market and say, "I've got the best.". Capitalism, baby! The Mac is almost socialist by lack of competitive design.

With the MacBook Pro, it's the ONLY one. Nobody else makes a MacOS laptop. No doubt it's an excellent product, but I really wish there were 1000 MAC clone machines and THEN (if the Apple product won reviews on it's own platform, eheh) you hold a inter-platform "Best of" roundup. Yeah right!

OK POINT: I believe that, in addition to excellent engineering, design, etc., what sets the Thinkpad apart is that it's COMPETED in it's market (Windows Business machines IMO) and WON TIME AND TIME AGAIN. IBM had to make a supior product BECAUSE there were 1000 other choices, and probably cheaper, for that busniess. They didn't always succeed, but just look at the T22 monitor thing (QWUXGA?!) and tell me IBM didn't have the best...it was their R&D. Supior frickin' R&D.

BTW: I know the Mac has the Intel now but IMO it's still not viable (or Win supported) for most people. Now if Apple would just give up their OS and become an IBM PC OEM...like all the rest...just fall in line...right this way please...you're all doing fine...welcome to microsoft...resistance is futile.

Prediction: I think Apple should be offering Windows Vista on their consumer machines maybe starting later this year. Of course they maintain the MacOS platform, too. But why not offer both?

There might be an advantage there for them and I bet Jobs has seen it...has was willing to give up the Gx hardware for Intel on this MacBook, after all...

Kel Ghu · #16 Post by **Kel Ghu** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 11:09 am

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060316-6393.html

MacBook Pro now

donking! · #17 Post by **donking!** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:26 am

I agree that I wouldn't count on Windows XP on a Mac being a viable solution for ongoing professional purposes. I'd go with whatever platform has the OS you really need.

*

I also don't agree that the MacBook design is so obviously great. I tend to float around design/media circles where everyone and their brother has a Mac. I'm just tired of seeing them. The MacBook looks exactly like the previous PowerBooks, so it's not going to stand out at all. And to me, when I walk into a cafe and see ten PowerBook/MacBooks in a row they look cheap and commercial. I'm over that design. Flashy a first. Cheap and glitzy later. Doesn't age well.

Especially having that glowing Apple logo right in the middle of the back of the screen. There's nothing subtle about that in terms of brand identity or looks or anything. It's just a big logo. I'm tired of logos everywhere.

I prefer the ThinkPad design approach, which is more of an attempt to meld form and function. And which generally opts for subtlety over flash. [Edit: Although, as I've said in other threads, I think the T4x's were in many ways, though not all, better designed in this respect.]

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That said, I also considered a MacBook, since I will be doing mostly design stuff. But I decided on the ThinkPad because I want the really high quality keyboard (I am also a writer). I (like pundit) find the freeware world of PCs more friendly. The (14.1") ThinkPad is a little bit lighter and it's less bulky (due to less width). It has much better battery life. The modular UltraBay is useful to me. It has 802.11a (and not just 'g'). It has a dual-layer DVD burner. It supports more RAM. It doesn't get really hot on the bottom. It has the 3-year warranty. And I don't think the wide screen aspect ratio of the LCD is as useful for doing page layout work. It would be cool for movies. But for page layout I want as much verticle height as I can get.

(I also honestly think the OS X user interface is less functional than Windows--but I don't want to start a Windows vs. Mac discussion, so I won't attempt to justify my preference.)

hoya · #18 Post by **hoya** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:47 am

donking! wrote:
That said, I also considered a MacBook, since I will be doing mostly design stuff. But I decided on the ThinkPad because I want the really high quality keyboard (I am also a writer). I (like pundit) find the freeware world of PCs more friendly. The (14.1") ThinkPad is a little bit lighter and it's less bulky (due to less width). It has much better battery life. The modular UltraBay is useful to me. It has 802.11a (and not just 'g'). It has a dual-layer DVD burner. It supports more RAM. It doesn't get really hot on the bottom. It has the 3-year warranty. And I don't think the wide screen aspect ratio of the LCD is as useful for doing page layout work. It would be cool for movies. But for page layout I want as much verticle height as I can get.

(I also honestly think the OS X user interface is less functional than Windows--but I don't want to start a Windows vs. Mac discussion, so I won't attempt to justify my preference.)

That's the best summary I've ever read on why the T60 trumps the MacBook Pro in every respect. thanks for writing that summary donking!

I also happen to find the cleartype font smoothing on XP to be far superior to the blurry fonts on OS X. I forced myself to switch to a Powerbook twice in the past 12 months, only to find myself back on a ThinkPad within a matter of weeks.

steveh · #19 Post by **steveh** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:58 pm

I own both a ThinkPad T42p, a PowerBook, and a MacBook Pro. I have also owned a 701c, 600, T30, T40, and T41. I did consider a T60, but ultimately chose the MacBook. Many of the points raised are uniformed or incorrect. I am anxiously waiting for VMWare for the Mac as dual booting is a pain in the butt and VMWare is an elegant and fast solution.
1. The Mac does not get any warmer than other dual core machines, and runs cooler than the PowerBook. In my experience, the fans almost never come on, and the machine is virtually silent, which is very different than a quiet machine, and contributes to my productivity.
2. You can buy a CTO machine (2.16 Ghz, 7,200 RPM drive) at the Apple store and you can return within 14 days (cannot do this when you order online).
3. The service arrangements for the Mac are far inferior to the ThinkPad as there is no onsite service for Mac notebooks and IBM's onsite service is terrific (and a lifesaver when you cannot afford to be without your notebook).
4. While the design of the ThinkPad is utilitarian and compared to most PC notebooks far superior, there are significant design advantages in the MacBook. They are advantages that increase productivity and not just 'cool' factors. The backlit keyboard does what you would assume in low light conditions and the ThinkLight pales in comparison and is basically useless when you have used the backlit keyboard. The ambient light sensor adjusts the screen illumination based on available lighting conditions and makes the legibility of the screen superior to almost any other notebook.
5. Until this MacBook there has never been a keyboard that even compared to the ThinkPad, yet I will tell you that this keyboard is the peer or superior to the ThinkPad.
6. OS X; until you have used a proper UNIX you do not realize just how lame multitasking and memory management is in Windows XP, and how much more secure 'out of the box' Mac OS X is.
7. While design is very subjective, good industrial design is not, and the MacBook is an icon of good industrial design. If it looks like the previous PowerBooks, so what? You don't change good design for the sake of change or a new model, but only if you can improve on an already very good design. The MacBook has small improvements such as thinner design and built in video camera, Atheros a,b,g wireless, ATI x16000 256Mb, ExpressCard, and FireWire.
Having said all of the above, I still very much like my T42p, there are precious few better notebooks but the MacBook is just this. Plus the ability to run Windows and various nix's, along with its native UNIX. BTW, there are lots of free programs for the Mac and if you install X11 (included on the install disks) there are even more. Just downloaded GIMP v2 yesterday.

#20 Post by **archer6** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:54 pm

To steveh

Thanks for the comprehensive report on the MacBook. I too have been using both PowerBook G4 & T42.

Your report seals the deal, I'm going to find one at an Apple store.

Thanks
Archer6

pundit · #21 Post by **pundit** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:03 pm

donking! wrote:I (like pundit) find the freeware world of PCs more friendly.

steveh wrote:BTW, there are lots of free programs for the Mac and if you install X11 (included on the install disks) there are even more. Just downloaded GIMP v2 yesterday.

My thoughts on the matter have been oft repeated. But just to clarify, I was referring to Free (as in freedom of press) software, and recognise that Mac OS has its fair share of Free software. My argument about Apple being "unfriendly" toward Free software was more along the lines of the development model they use for their OS, and not much else. After harping about how it is UNIX (R) based, and its Free core, they don't really contribute back to the community. IBM (and actually, even Bill G, in some weird way), on the other hand, gives millions toward things that matter to me.

It is a social, touchy-feely decision and not really tied to real-world technical facts. I am OK with admitting that.

donking! · #22 Post by **donking!** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:12 pm

steveh wrote:1. The Mac does not get any warmer than other dual core machines, and runs cooler than the PowerBook. In my experience, the fans almost never come on, and the machine is virtually silent, which is very different than a quiet machine, and contributes to my productivity.

Many people have reported that the MacBook, like the PowerBook before it, can be quite hot to the touch on the bottom. It is my understanding that this is because the MacBook/PowerBook design uses the aluminum bottom to dissipate heat.

Here are people reporting about the heat (even on the top/keyboard side of the notebook). Even saying it's too hot to touch sometimes:

http://www.powerpage.org/archives/2006/ ... ation.html
http://db.tidbits.com/getbits.acgi?tbart=08455
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/conten ... -7890-8160
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread. ... acbook+hot
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=172567

It's easy to find many more people making the same report.

It is also my understanding that the heat/silence issue is basically a trade off between the MacBook and ThinkPad. The MacBook dissipates heat through its aluminum shell and so does not need to run a loud fan. But it can get really hot to touch. The ThinkPad doesn't have heat issues, but we all know that it has been plagued with fan noise issues (though the T60 fan is supposed to be much quieter now). I'd rather have a notebook with a little (soothing?

) rush of air sound, than something potentially too hot to hold in my lap.

steveh wrote:4. While the design of the ThinkPad is utilitarian and compared to most PC notebooks far superior, there are significant design advantages in the MacBook. They are advantages that increase productivity and not just 'cool' factors. The backlit keyboard does what you would assume in low light conditions and the ThinkLight pales in comparison and is basically useless when you have used the backlit keyboard. The ambient light sensor adjusts the screen illumination based on available lighting conditions and makes the legibility of the screen superior to almost any other notebook.

Eh, I have worked in many a dark environment with a notebook that has no keyboad lighting and never once wished I had such a device. It may be nice to have such lighting on occasion, but I think on both the MacBook and ThinkPad this is a gee whiz feature. And it is typical of Apple to go for the much more glitzy (battery consumming?) solution.

If you want to talk about truly functional design advantages, how about at least a second mouse button? Why is Apple so resistant on that? They've finally done it with the Mighty Mouse on their desktops, but their notebooks have not caught up yet.

steveh wrote:5. Until this MacBook there has never been a keyboard that even compared to the ThinkPad, yet I will tell you that this keyboard is the peer or superior to the ThinkPad.

I don't think you're going to find many people on this forum who will agree with you here. I've typed away on plenty of PowerBooks and tried the MacBook (same keyboard anyway). The keyboard is a nice full size keyboard. But it has nowhere near the touch of the best ThinkPad (NMB) keyboard. And it's definitely very plasticy when you touch it and look closely at it. The MacBook also lacks the much beloved ThinkPad trackpoint. On the other hand, the MacBook does have a bigger tackpad, which some may like better.

steveh wrote:6. OS X; until you have used a proper UNIX you do not realize just how lame multitasking and memory management is in Windows XP, and how much more secure 'out of the box' Mac OS X is.

But if you want to use UNIX, the UNIX options for PC platforms are superior, aren't they? I'm not a UNIX user, other's can chime in here.

Further, I have had a PowerMac G4 desktop for four years and I have found that OS X (in it's various incarnations) is surprisingly less stable than Windows 2000. I've had OS X completely crash a number of times. I've never once had that happen with Windows 2000. Many friends have reported similar experiences to me and claim XP is yet more stable (I've been resisting the shift, because of all the proprietary crap with XP).

steveh wrote:7. While design is very subjective, good industrial design is not, and the MacBook is an icon of good industrial design. If it looks like the previous PowerBooks, so what? You don't change good design for the sake of change or a new model, but only if you can improve on an already very good design.

Good industrial design is just as subjective as any other kind of design. I don't know how you can possibly substantiate that assertion. Making a distinction along these lines between industrial design, on the one hand, and just plain design, on the other, just pushes back the subjective/objective, aesthetic/functional, debate to another level (that of "industrial" design). It uses the word "industrial" to make the whole issue sound more objective.

It's true, as you say, there's probably no reason to change a good design (if we agree that the MacBook/PowerBook is a good design, which I'm not so sure about). And indeed I'm sorry Lenovo made some of the design changes on the T60 that they made. But the substance of what I say above is that the MacBook/PowerBook design is glitzy (hardly an industrial design attribute, if we're going to talk in those terms) and doesn't age well. That's just my opinion. But you don't really respond to that.

Also ageyfman, who began this thread and who is trying to decide between the two notebooks, wrote of the MacBook design, "the form factor as well as the look of the laptop are so hot, it's not even worth talking about it." Someone who says "so hot," to me, seems like someone who is more interested in the highly subjective cool factor of the MacBook, than the more functional (albeit still very subjective) form/function elements of industrial design. I was questioning (in my post above) whether the MacBooks really are that cool and whether they can maintain their image over time.

steveh wrote:The MacBook has small improvements such as thinner design and built in video camera, Atheros a,b,g wireless, ATI x16000 256Mb, ExpressCard, and FireWire.

1) The T60 (14.1") is just as thin. 2) Where does it say that the MacBook has Atheros a,b,g? I don't see that on the Apple web site. It just says it has 802.11g. 3) The FireGl with 256Mb in the T60p is just as good if not better than X1600, depending on what you want to use it for. 4) The T60 has an ExpressCard slot, which accepts both the 34 and 54 standards (the MacBook only accepts 34), as well as the T60 having a Type I and II PCMCIA slot.

steveh wrote:BTW, there are lots of free programs for the Mac and if you install X11 (included on the install disks) there are even more. Just downloaded GIMP v2 yesterday.

Huh? GIMP is a strange example. It's also available in Windows. How does that distinguish the two platforms? As you say, there are "lots" of free programs for the Mac. But it just seems silly to try to argue that there's not more freeware for Windows. Isn't it common knowledge? I've run into this many times. There is pretty much always several freeware Windows solution for a problem I have. But with Mac it's very often just not there at all.

*

Obviously there are a lot of factors in the T60 vs. MacBook debate. I could list off advantages of the MacBook (the brighter LCD prominent among them, the S-Video and DVI). But I think pretending like there's an obvious answer to this question isn't helpful. I was trying to provide some counter point to the MacBook-is-so-cool-and-better-designed knee jerk reaction that's easy to have.

hoya · #23 Post by **hoya** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:23 pm

steveh wrote: 2. You can buy a CTO machine (2.16 Ghz, 7,200 RPM drive) at the Apple store and you can return within 14 days (cannot do this when you order online).

The last time I tried returning an opened product to Apple, I was hit with a $200 restocking fee, despite the fact that the PowerBook I was returning had the well-documented horizontal line issue.

I've returned several notebooks to Lenovo, up to 50 days after the purchase date, and have never been once been charged a restocking fee.

pundit · #24 Post by **pundit** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:22 pm

Wee! This is my favourite sort of discussion; something that reaffirms what I've already decided.

donking! wrote:Many people have reported that the MacBook, like the PowerBook before it, can be quite hot to the touch on the bottom. It is my understanding that this is because the MacBook/PowerBook design uses the aluminum bottom to dissipate heat.

Aluminium has a higher thermal conductivity, so, obviously, the external temperature of the MBP is higher; and this is also the reason why it depends less on the fan to stay cooler inside. But I think an important issue here is the better battery life of the T60. Clearly, the energy has to be going somewhere in the MBP, and it's definitely dissipated as more heat.

steveh wrote:The backlit keyboard does what you would assume in low light conditions and the ThinkLight pales in comparison and is basically useless when you have used the backlit keyboard.

While this is definitely true, it doesn't really make a difference if one knows how to type.

donking! wrote:If you want to talk about truly functional design advantages, how about at least a second mouse button?

Exactly, what's the deal with that? There is a reason why this is at the top of my objective features list.

donking! wrote:But if you want to use UNIX, the UNIX options for PC platforms are superior, aren't they? I'm not a UNIX user, other's can chime in here.

Depends on how you define "superior". If you're referring to performance, there are superior unices to Mac OS X, on the PC (and other platforms). If you're referring to sheer ease of use, general lickability and all-round apparent-polish, Mac OS X leads the pack.

steveh · #25 Post by **steveh** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:44 pm

donking! wrote:
Many people have reported that the MacBook, like the PowerBook before it, can be quite hot to the touch on the bottom. It is my understanding that this is because the MacBook/PowerBook design uses the aluminum bottom to dissipate heat.
Here are people reporting about the heat (even on the top/keyboard side of the notebook). Even saying it's too hot to touch sometimes:
It's easy to find many more people making the same report.

Yes, the MacBook does use the aluminum as a heat sink, but it NEVER gets too hot to touch or hold. If you were to cover the rear heat extraction vents (as in using this on a bed or soft fabric surface, i.e., sofa) then this could happen. But, it would also happen to the ThinkPad and we would never seriously use them this way.

donking! wrote:
It is also my understanding that the heat/silence issue is basically a trade off between the MacBook and ThinkPad. The MacBook dissipates heat through its aluminum shell and so does not need to run a loud fan. But it can get really hot to touch. The ThinkPad doesn't have heat issues, but we all know that it has been plagued with fan noise issues (though the T60 fan is supposed to be much quieter now). I'd rather have a notebook with a little (soothing? ) rush of air sound, than something potentially too hot to hold in my lap.

The MacBook has 2 separate fans when the temperature of the core duo or the ATI reaches preset thresholds.

donking! wrote:
Eh, I have worked in many a dark environment with a notebook that has no keyboad lighting and never once wished I had such a device. It may be nice to have such lighting on occasion, but I think on both the MacBook and ThinkPad this is a gee whiz feature. And it is typical of Apple to go for the much more glitzy (battery consumming?) solution.

Let me give you an example because you seem to miss the point of this:
I start writing code at 3:00 in the afternoon. The coding is going well and I cannot be disturbed. It begins to get dark and the keyboard becomes difficult to see. On the MacBook I don't worry about this as the keys illuminate to compensate for a lack of light, and the screen simultaneously adjust its brightness to make it easier to read. 'glitzy' solution or a gimmick. I think not, but a real productivity boost, at least for me.

donking! wrote:
If you want to talk about truly functional design advantages, how about at least a second mouse button? Why is Apple so resistant on that? They've finally done it with the Mighty Mouse on their desktops, but their notebooks have not caught up yet.

Agreed abut the second mouse button. Control click is no substitute for a second mouse button.

donking! wrote:
I don't think you're going to find many people on this forum who will agree with you here. I've typed away on plenty of PowerBooks and tried the MacBook (same keyboard anyway). The keyboard is a nice full size keyboard. But it has nowhere near the touch of the best ThinkPad (NMB) keyboard. And it's definitely very plasticy when you touch it and look closely at it. The MacBook also lacks the much beloved ThinkPad trackpoint. On the other hand, the MacBook does have a bigger tackpad, which some may like better.

I strongly disagree with this. The PowerBook keyboard was at best, fair, but the MacBook keyboard is wonderful in the way that the best ThinkPad keyboards are. BTW, last time I looked at my T42p the keys (as most of the notebook) are made of plastic, so I don't really get your 'plasticy' comment.

Yes, I do miss the trackpoint.

donking! wrote:
But if you want to use UNIX, the UNIX options for PC platforms are superior, aren't they? I'm not a UNIX user, other's can chime in here.

OS X is built on Free BSD which IMO is the best UNIX variant, and no desktop UNIX is superior.

donking! wrote:
Further, I have had a PowerMac G4 desktop for four years and I have found that OS X (in it's various incarnations) is surprisingly less stable than Windows 2000. I've had OS X completely crash a number of times. I've never once had that happen with Windows 2000. Many friends have reported similar experiences to me and claim XP is yet more stable (I've been resisting the shift, because of all the proprietary crap with XP).

We support over 5,000 Windows machines and this statement is unsub FUD, and out of character with your well thought out and intelligent reply. I will write this off as a brain fart.

donking! wrote:
Good industrial design is just as subjective as any other kind of design. I don't know how you can possibly substantiate that assertion. Making a distinction along these lines between industrial design, on the one hand, and just plain design, on the other, just pushes back the subjective/objective, aesthetic/functional, debate to another level (that of "industrial" design). It uses the word "industrial" to make the whole issue sound more objective.

Industrial design is a discipline of study in most major universities the world over. I dare think that they would think that this was a subjective course of study, and most professional industrial designers feel that good design can be objectified and gauged on the merits of the discipline. It is much more than gee, isn't that nice looking. And from WikiPedia:
Product design is focused on products only, while industrial design has a broader focus on concepts, products and processes. In addition to considering aesthetics, usability, and ergonomics, it can also encompass the engineering of objects, usefulness as well as usability, market placement, and other concerns.

donking! wrote:
It's true, as you say, there's probably no reason to change a good design (if we agree that the MacBook/PowerBook is a good design, which I'm not so sure about). And indeed I'm sorry Lenovo made some of the design changes on the T60 that they made. But the substance of what I say above is that the MacBook/PowerBook design is glitzy (hardly an industrial design attribute, if we're going to talk in those terms) and doesn't age well. That's just my opinion. But you don't really respond to that.

What is it about this design that doesn’t age well in your opinion? Along these lines I guess you could say that a Ferrari 512BB does not age well either.

donking! wrote:
1) The T60 (14.1") is just as thin. 2) Where does it say that the MacBook has Atheros a,b,g? I don't see that on the Apple web site. It just says it has 802.11g. 3) The FireGl with 256Mb in the T60p is just as good if not better than X1600, depending on what you want to use it for. 4) The T60 has an ExpressCard slot, which accepts both the 34 and 54 standards (the MacBook only accepts 34), as well as the T60 having a Type I and II PCMCIA slot.

The specs for the MacBook list just this, and ARS Technica's review also stated this (Atheros, a,b,g). The FireGL is basically the same card optimized for Open GL. Wish that they had gone with the 54 ExpressCard, I agree.

donking! wrote:
Huh? GIMP is a strange example. It's also available in Windows. How does that distinguish the two platforms? As you say, there are "lots" of free programs for the Mac. But it just seems silly to try to argue that there's not more freeware for Windows. Isn't it common knowledge? I've run into this many times. There is pretty much always several freeware Windows solution for a problem I have. But with Mac it's very often just not there at all.

Gimp was given as an example of X Windows (X11) programs for the Mac, of which there are hundreds of open source programs available, many free and many very high quality.
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Sottozero · #26 Post by **Sottozero** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:49 pm

I just got my T60p, and I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt it's a very, very nice notebook. This machine is replacing my dual G5 desktop, so I need it to be durable and fast. If you couldn't guess by what thread I'm posting in, I was considering the MBP as well.

I'm in what I consider an evaluation period, and so far, it looks like I'll be keeping the T60p. I got the 2007-92U model (2.16 GHz Core Duo, 1 GB RAM, 100 GB SATA, FireGL V5200, Lenovo-branded WiFi), over the 93U basically to avoid the Intel ABG WiFi adapter that some say have problems. So far, my WiFi is outstanding and has not dropped or fluctuated from an "excellent" signal once.

Performance is very good. Build quality is, as expected, superlative. I got the 15" FlexView screen, and while the text is a bit small at native resolution, everything is very, very crisp and bright; I have no dead pixels.

But here's the kicker: the machine is very quiet, especially if you consider how powerful it is. During a Cinebench run I heard a fan come on and whir gently, but even in my quiet house, it wasn't hardly noticeable.

And the second part of the kicker: it barely gets warm. The right palmrest gets a *little* warm, but it's absolutely insignificant.

That little fact is the key point when comparing the T60p to the MBP.

The MBP gets HOT. Very hot. I have a 12" PB and the MBP gets 3x hotter, and I'm not making that up. I went into an Apple store this past weekend and wanted to touch a MBP that had been running all day. The top was fairly warm, but the bottom was downright hot. Not painful in the scalding sense, but very uncomfortable to the bare finger; you certainly would not want that touching your bare leg.

So, to me, the thermal engineering of the MBP is designed more for form than function. That's disappointing to me, and the only showstopper the MBP has.

I will be posting a full review of the T60p here on on my blog, so stay tuned if you want a very detailed analysis and some pics.

taphil · #27 Post by **taphil** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:53 pm

There are two reasons why I would consider the MBP:

(1) Dual-link DVI output. I have a 30" LCD at home and 24" LCD at work. I would love to use a laptop with either display. VGA output is poor on my T41. The MBP is the only laptop I am aware of that has DVI on the laptop itself. Moreover, it is dual-link, so it can drive my 30" LCD as well.

(2) OSX. Having owned a Mac for almost a year, it is a nice operating system. For me, it is less stable than XP, slower than XP, and file navigation is awful with that evil thing that is Finder. I am certainly no more productive in OSX either. But it is just nice to have.

Dual booting could be an option on the T60. However, it is a hack, video drivers do not work above 1280x1024, and it does not work perfectly. I would say it does not work that well at all. So what really is the point?

Dual booting on the MBP is more interesting. So maybe I should get the MBP. It is the only laptop that will run my 30" display.

The MBP and T60 do share the same CPU, memory, hard drive specs. The X1600 is better than the low of the low-end X1300 of the T60, which is a disappointment on Lenovos part. The T60p is rather expensive. On the MBP, the lighted keyboard is cool. But there is no comparison to the ThinkPad keyboard feeling though, the MBP and PB keyboards feel like any ordinary Toshiba or HP laptop to me. (When people say the keyboards on the Apple are great, I shug and have no idea what they are talking about.) The MagSafe power connector is neat, though I have never had a problem with the traditional and proven power jack. The MBP screen is good in terms of brightness and contrast, but I cannot deal with the low 900 pixel vertical resolution (minus the OSX dock if you set it small and dont make it hide) or the poor vertical viewing angle from the top. My T41 is 1400x1050 with a 14" screen, and to go to the MBP with a lower resolution would be too hard. I tend not to like the wide aspect of widescreen laptops, as they do not fit as well on those tiny fold-out desks in classrooms and lecture halls. I do not care for iSight, I have never wanted to use a webcam in my life, nor see someone on their webcam. FrontRow has no use for me either. And I hate the hinges on Apple laptops, I do not understand why they open out that way instead of using traditional hinge placement and designs like the Ti PB or ThinkPad. The MBP gets way too hot even at idle, it feels like it is around 60C or so, and I know what 60C water feels like because that is the temperature at which I run biochemical reactions. Then I read all over the web and Apple forums about the backlight inverter whine when the backlight is set low; the CPU whine when it is idle, fixed by running some widgets or programs but take away battery life a bit, or plugging in something USB to stop the noise; and the backlight pulsating when set to low. However, these problems may be fixed a month from now.

But I can deal. So the MBP is still on the table for consideration. But there is absolutely no way I can justify buying it because of the PPC to Intel switch is still going on. I do not want to run software under Rosetta emulation, and laugh when people say Photoshop runs fine under Rosetta like their old 1.2GHz PowerBook from a year or two ago. Getting performance equal to an old PPC laptop for non-native software is not a real good use of $2500 to me.

pundit · #28 Post by **pundit** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:02 pm

steveh wrote:OS X is built on Free BSD which IMO is the best UNIX variant, and no desktop UNIX is superior.

OS X's insides, Darwin, is built on a Mach-based kernel with FreeBSD userland. (IMO) GNU/Linux is a "superior desktop" to FreeBSD purely because of the amount of momentum and work going toward it. But, more importantly, Linux is a giant, monolithic kernel and Mach is a microkernel (upon which Apple has tacked on some monolithicisms); and microkernels though stellar on paper always seem to perform worse than monolithic kernels.

Whether FreeBSD is the best UNIX variant or not is irrelevant. Darwin is not FreeBSD. And Darwin is slower than Linux, and the BSDs.

steveh · #29 Post by **steveh** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:36 pm

pundit wrote: OS X's insides, Darwin, is built on a Mach-based kernel with FreeBSD userland. (IMO) GNU/Linux is a "superior desktop" to FreeBSD purely because of the amount of momentum and work going toward it. But, more importantly, Linux is a giant, monolithic kernel and Mach is a microkernel (upon which Apple has tacked on some monolithicisms); and microkernels though stellar on paper always seem to [url=http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2436&p=7]perform worse than monolithic kernels

Whether FreeBSD is the best UNIX variant or not is irrelevant. Darwin is not FreeBSD. And Darwin is slower than Linux, and the BSDs.

The core of the Mach kernel is FreeBSD and it is the most tested and secure version of UNIX in the opinion of many. Linux is nice, but not real UNIX IMO, and momentum does no equal goodness in an OS. I use the Terminal app most of the time for heavy lifting in OS X, and it is very fast. I also love the security in the BSD core.

rocketman · #30 Post by **rocketman** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:53 pm

I guess the point of all this back and forth between the T60 and MacBook Pro is that nothing is perfect and both the T60 and MacBook Pro are great products. The ability now to dual boot the MacBook Pro with both OS X and Windows Xp (and in the future Vista) is a great step ahead and will only get better as more drivers are created and the dual boot process is simplified. I will say one thing though, the MacBook Pro does get very warm, perhaps not so hot that it's untouchable but much warmer than I would have expected.

Anyone thinking of getting the Macbook Pro vs. T60P

MacBook Pro vs. T60p

Anyone thinking of getting the Macbook Pro vs. T60P

Almost no comparison

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