T60P VS MBP, now that it can run windows......

[christopher_wolf]

Frankly, I haven't been too impressed with the Xeons at all...Nothing about them to really "wow" me at all. Although it would be nice to have it in a portable, dual core package should the need arise to use it. I probably won't really take to 64-bit Vista much at all as I have used the 64-bit edition of Windows XP and it felt pretty much the same. The difference comes when you go to write programs that are mathematically compute intensive. You cut alot of the usefulness of stuff from FORTRAN, and other languages, out when you move to 64 bit. Take a look at all the features that are offered on other platforms, all 64 bit, that don't get offered on the Visual FORTRAN 90/95 IDE for Windows. For me it will be adding more ability in terms of how far I can push the limits of a simulation I code, etc. Most programs, however, will not need that; heck, you won't see much of a difference at all since they won't actually take much, if any, advantage of the new architecture.

Although Intel already has several FORTRAN compilers out, so I am pretty sure that the Merom will play *very* nice with it, something good from my point of view.

[pundit]

You know I'm only keeping this thread alive because it's thought-provokingly, time-wastingly interesting to me. The instant this thread gets anywhere close to other threads that I'm proud of in terms of popularity (as in ~200 responses, ~8000 reads), you know it'll stop feeling my love.

Moving on.

Yeah (regarding the article at that link), a lot of people certainly do experience MacLust. I think I was experiencing ThinkLust when I ordered my ThinkPad. Unfortunately, that effect is a lot more powerful when you don't have one. Part of it, I think, is about seeing other people with one and not having it.

I still think you should hold out for the next redesign of the MacBook (be that with the Merom or whenever they do it). The current design has just been out too long. Essentially since the original Titanium (2001)(2003 if you date it from the Aluminum model). No matter how cool people think the Mac is, the current design is several years old. But if they redesign it, then you'll be right at the apex of the breaking cool wave.

[snip]

While this makes perfect sense (when is it not a good time to wait for the next best thing?), I think you're overestimating how mundane I might find the PowerBook design. Just as you're tired of it since you see it all the time, I am tired of plain black---sophisticatedly-understated or not---because that's what is ubiquitous in my circles. All that you've gone on to say about the sleekness and coolness of plain black, I could say about the metallic silvery look; except that it does border on over-the-top and isn't really understated. Just as you're dismissing one as boring and the other as "so perfect there's little to change", I'm willing to do the same thing in reverse.

At the heart of it, I think, what we're looking for is a purchase that'll not just help with computing, but also distinguish us from the rest of the pack in some way; sad as it sounds to hear it like that. The ThinkPad does this for you, but doesn't do it for me.

All that said, I took the MBP for yet another spin earlier today. This time I spent a lot more time, and was careful to look for things I missed the last time. Updated opinions.

1. It does get very warm. But not uncomfortably so. I'm from a tropical region now living in a very cold state; every bit of ambient warmth helps. It actually felt nice to have my hands rest on the toasty warm metal, believe it or not.
2. Someone was saying that the viewing angle is tiny, and even working with it standing up causes colour distortion. I beg to disagree, I did a near Pi radian walk-around, and the intensity/colour barely changed---eerily FlexiViewey.
3. It is very thin, but oh-so-dense. Somehow you expect it to be featherweight for its dimensions, but it's not. It is heavy. I even did my little wrist-stress tests with the 12" Powerbook, and it's the same problem: it looks tiny but it isn't light.
4. The resolution is actually not bad, though I am not a fan of the wide-screen; not at all.
5. The lack of the right mouse button isn't as bad as I originally assumed. Though it still is not pleasant.
6. I take back my original dismissal of it feeling cheap. It's only the keyboard that feels cheaper than the T60p. The rest of the casing, screen and such is gorgeous.
7. I also got to play around with things like the camera and the remote. While functional, they aren't much to write home about. Plus, if I had this machine, I can't fake not having a camera when people want to video conference.

[pundit]

Frankly, I haven't been too impressed with the Xeons at all...Nothing about them to really "wow" me at all. Although it would be nice to have it in a portable, dual core package should the need arise to use it. I probably won't really take to 64-bit Vista much at all as I have used the 64-bit edition of Windows XP and it felt pretty much the same. The difference comes when you go to write programs that are mathematically compute intensive. You cut alot of the usefulness of stuff from FORTRAN, and other languages, out when you move to 64 bit. Take a look at all the features that are offered on other platforms, all 64 bit, that don't get offered on the Visual FORTRAN 90/95 IDE for Windows. For me it will be adding more ability in terms of how far I can push the limits of a simulation I code, etc. Most programs, however, will not need that; heck, you won't see much of a difference at all since they won't actually take much, if any, advantage of the new architecture.

Although Intel already has several FORTRAN compilers out, so I am pretty sure that the Merom will play *very* nice with it, something good from my point of view.

As much of a free software zealot I am, I am ashamed to say I use nothing but Intel's own compilers on my "real" simulation code builds when working on Intel machines. They, for free, literally, give me a sizable boost in performance over gcc. The fact that they play well with front ends, even VStudio (which I don't use but others seem to swear by), makes them quite hard to pass up.

[archer6]

Yeah (regarding the article at that link), a lot of people certainly do experience MacLust. I think I was experiencing ThinkLust when I ordered my ThinkPad.

I still think you should hold out for the next redesign of the MacBook (be that with the Merom or whenever they do it).
if they redesign it, then you'll be right at the apex of the breaking cool wave.

Actually, part of what I think is brilliant about the ThinkPad design is it's understated, functional, sleek black look. It doesn't need to change.

In the end, I think, it will be hard to top the Titanium.

donking! -

Nice work, well said !

As someone who has both Mac & ThinkPad "lust". I really enjoyed reading your post.
I have been using the T series ThinkPads since they were introduced and couldn't be happier. Frankly I am very glad that they have kept the same form factor with the modular bay.
ThinkPad is my main computer for work as I travel constantly, I have enjoyed unrivaled performance, reliability and support for over ten years.
Regarding the Titanium PowerBook G4, I have the latest model with the SuperDrive. Just 6 weeks after I purchased it they announced the Aluminum PowerBooks at MacWorld SF. A friend of mine purchased one of the 17" Aluminum PowerBooks and it was ok, but had a heat issue. His eventually (within the 1st month) was returned and "repaired" by Apple service. I was very relieved that his experience influenced me not to buy one. So needless to say I have been waiting for a newly designed PowerBook for some time. The decision to wait at this point is a no brainer as I share your opinion on the current model.

Thanks again for a great post, couldn't have said it better myself.

[taphil]

2. Someone was saying that the viewing angle is tiny, and even working with it standing up causes colour distortion. I beg to disagree, I did a near Pi radian walk-around, and the intensity/colour barely changed---eerily FlexiViewey.

Vertical viewing angle is narrow, not horizontal (which is great). Put a gray screen on the display and look at it - most of it will be gray, but then a part of it (maybe the top third or the bottom third) is darker gray. On a gray screen, backlight eveness is not very great either. On top of this, the display does not open very far so it is hard to look at if it is sitting on a table and you are standing up looking down on it.

[pundit]

Vertical viewing angle is narrow, not horizontal (which is great). Put a gray screen on the display and look at it - most of it will be gray, but then a part of it (maybe the top third or the bottom third) is darker gray. On a gray screen, backlight eveness is not very great either. On top of this, the display does not open very far so it is hard to look at if it is sitting on a table and you are standing up looking down on it.

Thanks for clarifying! I will trek up yet again to the display piece and check this out too.

[archer6]

Thanks for clarifying! I will trek up yet again to the display piece and check this out too.

pundit-

Reading your post here makes me chuckle! I thought I was the only one going back again to the Mac Store to drool and ....well you know. It's soooo hard to wait, yet I have made a commitment to myself to wait for the next rev.

[Michael1980]

Can you run Intel-native OSX on a Thinkpad?

[taphil]

Thanks for clarifying! I will trek up yet again to the display piece and check this out too.

The other thing you should do is check out several of the display models. There appears to me to be a lot of variation in the LCDs. Some of the displays at the store I go to (UTC in San Diego) are nice and bright, while other displays are darker and have dingy color. The display at on the MBP at my campus bookstore appears to be the worst (and it stopped running after two weeks, but they have not replaced or fixed it).

[archer6]

The other thing you should do is check out several of the display models. There appears to me to be a lot of variation in the LCDs. Some of the displays at the store I go to (UTC in San Diego) are nice and bright, while other displays are darker and have dingy color. The display at on the MBP at my campus bookstore appears to be the worst (and it stopped running after two weeks, but they have not replaced or fixed it).

taphil -

Good point! I too noticed this at the Mac Store in PaloAlto, but got distracted and forgot to carefully check the others on display before I left. I'm going to another Mac Store today and will keep this in mind.

Thanks.

[a31pguy]

The only advanatage the I can see about the MBP is the firewire 800. I work in a 50/50 windows/apple firm. The mac's lack the robustness of a good docking solution, two button mouse on the trackpad, and built-in WWAN cards. I would opt for OS X on a thinkpad before I went to Windows on a Mac. I'm hoping I can put OS X in a VMware session when I need to use mac based applications or BSD utilities. My vote is for a thinkpad.

[taphil]

The only advanatage the I can see about the MBP is the firewire 800.

FW800 was dropped from the MBP. FW400 only, if that makes any difference.

[a31pguy]

Well - than I stand corrected. Then I don't see any advantage.

[pundit]

The only advanatage the I can see about the MBP is the firewire 800. I work in a 50/50 windows/apple firm. The mac's lack the robustness of a good docking solution, two button mouse on the trackpad, and built-in WWAN cards. I would opt for OS X on a thinkpad before I went to Windows on a Mac. I'm hoping I can put OS X in a VMware session when I need to use mac based applications or BSD utilities. My vote is for a thinkpad.

The problem a31pguy, is that many people's comparisons have long transcended objective criteria like the existence (or lack of) a port. Once that happens, and it has, all rational bets are off.

[a31pguy]

Ok! So we are down to the cuteness factor? Oh my!

[Michael1980]

- No modular design (yes, people DO need it).
- No docking stations
- Nightmare design (has anyone try to change the hard drive on the 12"?)
- One button mouse?

The Thinkpad is made for business, while the powerbook is clearly form over function.

[donking!]

While this makes perfect sense (when is it not a good time to wait for the next best thing?), I think you're overestimating how mundane I might find the PowerBook design. Just as you're tired of it since you see it all the time, I am tired of plain black---sophisticatedly-understated or not---because that's what is ubiquitous in my circles. All that you've gone on to say about the sleekness and coolness of plain black, I could say about the metallic silvery look; except that it does border on over-the-top and isn't really understated. Just as you're dismissing one as boring and the other as "so perfect there's little to change", I'm willing to do the same thing in reverse.

At the heart of it, I think, what we're looking for is a purchase that'll not just help with computing, but also distinguish us from the rest of the pack in some way; sad as it sounds to hear it like that. The ThinkPad does this for you, but doesn't do it for me.

I wasn't trying to convince you about what I preceive as the sleekness of the ThinkPad. I've been trying to get into the question from your point of view. I was just detouring to appreciate what I think works about the ThinkPad design for what it is and for those who are drawn to it. I think it's interesting, as purely a design question, to consider and compare the different strategies that the ThinkPad and the MacBook pursue.

But clearly the MacBook would be better for you from a design point of view, for your situtaion (the circles you move in), and for you concerns about your situation. Still, given your situtation, I do think the MacBook/PowerBook/Titanium design is a little old and you could wow a lot more people if you waited for the next redesign of that line (assuming of course that Apple will do something new and cool). On the other hand, if you can't wait (for any number of perfectly understandable reasons) then go for the MacBook. There's no question it's a great computer with a design that wows many and that stands out amongst more functional appearing notebooks.

I had the sense, however, that you're not entirely satisified with the current MacBook. So that's why I thought waiting might be good: 1) Maybe you'll like the next design better. 2) Even if it's still not completely satisfying at least it will have the added benefit of being the latest cool thing rather than something that's cool but that's a 3-5 year old design.

Can you run Intel-native OSX on a Thinkpad?

See this thread and the other two links:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=18575
http://www.osx86project.org/
http://maxxuss.konglish.org/

[christopher_wolf]

Agreed about the Intel compilers; I am not much of a free software zealot (used to be, but saw tons of bizzare stuff going on)...but I do like the Intel Compilers and the boost they give over gcc, nothing to be ashamed about that.

Oh, and care to explain what this means?

You know I'm only keeping this thread alive because it's thought-provokingly, time-wastingly interesting to me. The instant this thread gets anywhere close to other threads that I'm proud of in terms of popularity (as in ~200 responses, ~8000 reads), you know it'll stop feeling my love.

Moving on.

...I was not aware this thread was being kept on life support.

At this point, we are really splitting fragments of hair. Keep in mind that the majority of the "consumer" type of customer out there really don't pay that much attention to it. True, the ones that do are really the cream of the crop and have logical requirements, but then again only up until a point.

[pundit]

I had the sense, however, that you're not entirely satisified with the current MacBook.

I am not, not nearly.

But I also realised at some point that I am not (going to be?) satisfied by anything that's offered---for technical, ideological or plain subjective reasons. And, sad as it sounds, I am beginning to reconcile myself with buying something that "at least maximises impact with people around", if not me.

[pundit]

Oh, and care to explain what this means?

You know I'm only keeping this thread alive because it's thought-provokingly, time-wastingly interesting to me. The instant this thread gets anywhere close to other threads that I'm proud of in terms of popularity (as in ~200 responses, ~8000 reads), you know it'll stop feeling my love.

Moving on.

...I was not aware this thread was being kept on life support.

I was joking about the fact that whenever this thread left the front page for a few days, I couldn't resist the urge to revive it. And that I would stop doing it lest it bordered on becoming the most read and commented thread on this forum.

At this point, we are really splitting fragments of hair. Keep in mind that the majority of the "consumer" type of customer out there really don't pay that much attention to it. True, the ones that do are really the cream of the crop and have logical requirements, but then again only up until a point.

Yeah, and I've decide to save myself much grief and move myself to this consumer mode for a while. I am just going to buy the thing I fancy the most (relatively, of course) now and not mull too much over specifics. If the next-best-thing (TM) is released in the near future---and really is a huge leap in terms of awesomeness---I will figure out how to get my hands on it at that time.

[archer6]

Yeah, and I've decide to save myself much grief and move myself to this consumer mode for a while. I am just going to buy the thing I fancy the most (relatively, of course) now and not mull too much over specifics.

I find this thread both interesting and compelling. I seem to be sitting on the same fence trying to decide, while being as open minded as possible and enjoying the great discussions going on.
So pundit, have you decided what notebook you are going to purchase?

[pundit]

So pundit, have you decided what notebook you are going to purchase?

Yeah, since I've perpetually used non-shiny, strictly-business-like appearing laptops, I decided it is high time I went silvery---as in MBP. I am not going to hold to any high standard like I did my T60p---and just deal with things like an unevenly lit screen like a man[1]---because otherwise it will surely disappoint too. At the moment, I plan to match it up to the specs below.

I will also try my best not to drop it/spill anything on it/generally abuse it in case it needs to be gotten rid of when the next shiny thing comes about; meaning I am not going to be emotionally attached to it. It's more to appease people around who've almost decided this is as vicariously close they can get to shininess.

A tech purchase where I just stopped caring? Who'd have thought the day would come!

I've also decided I'm going to strip it of OS X, install GNU/Linux (now with the shiny ATI driver and all), and flash it over and over in front of a couple of very annoying OS X evangelists I happen to know. The only flaw in this brilliant plan is Aperture. I happened to see it working, and F-Spot is no Aperture, I'll tell you that.

[1] A "non-whiney" person. It had nothing to do with gender.

[archer6]

Yeah, since I've perpetually used non-shiny, strictly-business-like appearing laptops, I decided it is high time I went silvery---as in MBP.

Yes, I must admit that I'm heading in that same direction for the same reasons.

I am not going to hold to any high standard like I did my T60p---and just deal with things like an unevenly lit screen like a man[1]

Thanks for the (many laughs) I needed the humor, as I have not laughed that hard at myself in a long time.

I will also try my best not to drop it/spill anything on it/generally abuse it in case it needs to be gotten rid of when the next shiny thing comes about; meaning I am not going to be emotionally attached to it.

Wow.....like kind here, however, I'm not sure I can avoid getting emotionally attached to it.

A tech purchase where I just stopped caring? Who'd have thought the day would come!

Despite my best efforts my "day" may be delayed.......

[archer6]

pundit-
I forgot to ask if you have received your refund yet, for the ThinkPad you returned? How long has it been, and if you have not been reimbursed is there an expected date?

Thanks,
Archer

[pundit]

I forgot to ask if you have received your refund yet, for the ThinkPad you returned? How long has it been, and if you have not been reimbursed is there an expected date?

I was told "8--10 business days". It has been 6.43 business days so far since I shipped it off (and 5.84 since it was signed for as received by their returns center). I have been keeping meticulous records, of course. They have been super-super nice about all of this, so I don't think they were kidding about the timeframe.

The more time they give me, the more I get to mull over brands like Toshiba, Dell, HP, and so on. Those and the inimitable X-series, of course. Yipee!

[pundit]

For the record, I read (yet) another detailed review of the MBP, and here are some relevant quotes.

When Apple first announced that it had accelerated the introduction of the Intel based Macs and introduced the iMac Core Duo and MacBook Pro, I was not impressed. Maybe it was that my expectations were too high, but for Apple's first attempt at an Intel based Mac I expected a design that would blow me away. I expected the reaction to the Mac mini, but with even more punch, yet all I got were brand new internals in the same old exterior.

This is similar to donking!'s argument against the boring outside of the MBP.

My only other complaint about the keyboard is actually a complaint I have about virtually all notebook keyboards - that the fn key does not need to be in the lower left corner of the notebook. There are less frequently used areas on the keyboard to stick that key and for some reason it always ends up being around the keys I use fairly frequently (left ctrl, left option and left command). This isn't really any Apple-specific complaint, but rather something that has bothered me about every notebook keyboard I've used.

This is a restatement of my beef with all laptop keyboards.

The MacBook Pro's keyboard is identical to its predecessors, which overall isn't a bad thing. The PowerBook G4's keyboard ended up being one of my all time favorites, second only to ThinkPad keyboards which continue to be my top choice for anyone who writes a lot. Being that it uses the same keyboard as before, the MacBook Pro doesn't feature any dedicated page up/page down keys nor any dedicated home/end keys (they are shared with the arrow keys). I would assume that a solid portion of Apple's customers may be folks who happen to be writers, in which case it would make sense for Apple to invest in an updated keyboard layout that accommodates keys frequently used by them.

This is something which everyone here will agree to. Plus, check out the (lack of) quality control on the keyboard.

I will say that the uniformity of the brightness of the panel doesn't seem to be as good as on my previous PowerBook; the panel does seem to get darker around the corners than the old panel. Obviously at different resolutions the two aren't necessarily comparable, but I wouldn't call the new panel a huge step forward. It's not bad by any means, but the brightness uniformity was one of the first things I noticed about it.

And of course, my pet peeve.

It takes no more than a few minutes using Windows XP on the MacBook Pro before you realize that a number of things feel out of place. The biggest problem is that there's no right mouse button, which in OS X you get around by holding down the ctrl key and clicking, but in Windows XP ctrl + click does nothing.

Everyone's favourite issue. When will they learn? And, in conclusion:

1) What has become known as the MacBook Pro "whine" is an extremely annoying whine/buzzing sound that emanates from the area around the MagSafe connector. The sound appears to be related to CPU load and seems to be caused by whatever power circuitry is affected by the CPU switching into lower sleep states. While this noise was present on my PowerBook G4, for whatever reason it is more annoying/present on the MacBook Pro. I have not seen a fix for this problem as of yet nor do I think one is possible without a redesign of some of the internals of the MacBook Pro.

2) The bottom of the MacBook Pro gets extremely hot; hotter than any notebook I've ever used. On the plus side you can barely hear either of the two fans running but the downside is that you've got to be careful with what you rest it on while using it. I've found that it only really gets extremely hot when doing something very CPU intensive. While I was benchmarking the unit the heat got almost unbearable, but during normal use it was mostly fine and when simply writing on it there were no problems at all. I've heard that this problem has since been fixed with later revisions but I don't know first hand as everyone has different definitions of fixed and tolerances of heat.

3) The third and final problem I've had with the notebook are the two keys that are mounted improperly on the keyboard. I haven't been able to fix this myself and suspect that it may actually require a keyboard replacement. After publishing this review, I'll head down to Apple and see what they say.

[donking!]

Wow, pundit! I review that vindicates just about all of your concerns and complaints about notebooks. Must be very satisfying.

I will say, however, that I would actually prefer the Home, End, PgUp, PgDn keyboard set up of the MacBook (which integrates them into the arrow keys)(even though the review critizes it). I had a set up like this on my old VAIO and found it much easier to use than putting those keys in the upper right hand corner, as on the T60. When I'm scrolling through documents or web pages, with the T60 set up, I have to constantly jump my hand back and forth between the lower right corner, where the arrow keys are, and the upper right. When all those functions are in the arrow keys and that's all in the lower right corner (a much more comfortable spot to reach) I have a very simple solution. At the same time, I find the new page forward and back keys silly. I use them. But that functionality is already integrated in Windows into the arrow keys (with an alt combination). Having it all right there in the arrows (with alt and fn combinations) to me is so much more of an elegant, usable, and simple solution. More keys is not always better.

A tech purchase where I just stopped caring? Who'd have thought the day would come!

Uh, oh! Maybe you're having an existential/spiritual crisis? Just kidding. I think the MacBook is really nice and despite everything I said would be excited to have one. I also think your Linux plan is a good one. Throw on a GUI that is way cooler than OS X. That ought to get OS X evangelists worked up.

[pundit]

Wow, pundit! A review that vindicates just about all of your concerns and complaints about notebooks. Must be very satisfying.

Eerily so. And what's scarier is that seeing everyone else (extrapolating from this reviewer to the everyone) treat these things as part-and-parcel of reality and just "dealing with it" is further nudging me toward doing just that.

Uh, oh! Maybe you're having an existential/spiritual crisis? Just kidding.

Kidding aside, this has more to do with it than I'm willing to acknowledge. In the grand scheme of things---in the backdrop of questions like "What am I doing with my life?"---a darkened screen corner seems... laughably insignificant.

[pundit]

pundit-
I forgot to ask if you have received your refund yet, for the ThinkPad you returned? How long has it been, and if you have not been reimbursed is there an expected date?

Update:

My order was split into two parts: the additional 6-cell battery and everything else during delivery. And I returned it that way.

I have received the refund on the battery. I presume the money for the computer will be arriving soon too. There is a scheme involving the Apple student developer thing I need to hatch soon.

Ahh the joys of being evil.

[archer6]

There is a scheme involving the Apple student developer thing I need to hatch soon.

Ahh the joys of being evil.

Now, this is downright eerie, only days ago I was having that same thought?!

If you create something clever, please share it with me. My email address is available within my profile here. Likewise if I come up with something that works (if you extend permission) I will send it to you.

archer