T60P VS MBP, now that it can run windows......

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christopher_wolf · #91 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:46 am

pundit wrote:
donking! wrote:Wow, pundit! A review that vindicates just about all of your concerns and complaints about notebooks. Must be very satisfying.
Eerily so. And what's scarier is that seeing everyone else (extrapolating from this reviewer to the everyone) treat these things as part-and-parcel of reality and just "dealing with it" is further nudging me toward doing just that.

donking! wrote:Uh, oh! Maybe you're having an existential/spiritual crisis? Just kidding.
Kidding aside, this has more to do with it than I'm willing to acknowledge. In the grand scheme of things---in the backdrop of questions like "What am I doing with my life?"---a darkened screen corner seems... laughably insignificant.

You know, if you want to explore the whole "What is life?" thing; you can grab an episode of Neon Genesis Evangelion, watch it, then listen to some Tangerine Dream, and maybe some trance as well; get together with a few friends in philosophy, then proceed to waste the *whoooolle* weekend away on it and various fumes.

Believe me, that is all too easy

Sottozero · #92 Post by **Sottozero** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:28 am

Just a follow up...

I returned my T60p to Lenovo and got my MBP, which is a fully-loaded machine with a 8614 serial number.

Perfect. Quiet, cool, fast. No issues whatsoever. I'm very happy to find that none of the issues that plagued earlier MBPs are still present in the current generation (at least the 8614s)...

HTH.

#93 Post by **archer6** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:26 am

Sottozero wrote:Just a follow up...

I returned my T60p to Lenovo and got my MBP, which is a fully-loaded machine with a 8614 serial number.

Perfect. Quiet, cool, fast. No issues whatsoever. I'm very happy to find that none of the issues that plagued earlier MBPs are still present in the current generation (at least the 8614s)...

HTH.

Congratulations! Happy to hear that your MBP is a good one with no issues.
Especially since I'm considering going the same route.

What is the significance of "8614" serial number? I want to stay as informed as possible, as I did hear the the "most recent" MBP have some updates to deal with the previous heat issues etc.

I plan to purchase at an apple store very soon, or would I be better off ordering direct from Apple to insure I get the latest production. Where did you get yours?

Please Advise,
Thanks
Archer

taphil · #94 Post by **taphil** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:54 am

6 = year 2006
14 = week 14

It's the time period the MBP was manufactured. Supposedly newer made ones have issues resolved. But I've read others saying their week 14 MBPs still have issues (whine and heat), so I've continued to hold off on buying one.

#95 Post by **archer6** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:02 pm

taphil wrote:6 = year 2006
14 = week 14

It's the time period the MBP was manufactured. Supposedly newer made ones have issues resolved. But I've read others saying their week 14 MBPs still have issues (whine and heat), so I've continued to hold off on buying one.

Thanks for the valuable information. What is your plan? How long are you going to wait?

Thanks,
Archer

taphil · #96 Post by **taphil** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:27 pm

archer6 wrote: Thanks for the valuable information. What is your plan? How long are you going to wait?

I want one now, but I don't really need a laptop until the end of summer. So I'll wait until "Rev B" or until Apple releases a small 12-13" MBP if it has the same hardware as the 15" MBP.

In Apple land, the sad and pathetic moto is "Wait until Rev B" because, in general, Apple's new first revision products (hardware and softwre) are really for public beta testing. So beware. My first Mac was a G4 Mac mini and I swore I would never buy a Mac again. At present, it's still true.

#97 Post by **archer6** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:10 pm

taphil wrote:In Apple land, the sad and pathetic moto is "Wait until Rev B" because, in general, Apple's new first revision products (hardware and softwre) are really for public beta testing.

Thanks for refreshing my memory. I agree, as I have used powerbooks off and on for the last 10 years. As an early adopter, often I have been one of those "Public Beta Testers"

November 29, 2002 I purchased the "Titanium with the newly introduced SuperDrive" 1 GHz 1GB 60GB. 6 weeks later at MacWorld SF they introduced the Aluminum PowerBooks in 12"15" 17" . I decided to wait as they were having heat issues.

I have not followed Apple closely lately, what is the best way (web site etc) for me to follow so I will know when Rev B is about to be released? That would allow me to get one of those as soon as possible.

Again, thanks for the feedback
archer

taphil · #98 Post by **taphil** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:14 pm

I just check ArsTechnica and Apple Discussions.

Here is another review that I find to be fair http://www.notebookreview.com/default.a ... Pro+Review

Note his observations about the LCD match mine: great horizontal viewing angle, but very poor and narrow vertical viewing angle. He says 15 degrees!

Kamika007z · #99 Post by **Kamika007z** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:19 pm

I don't know what everyone is talking about when it comes to aesthetics, I find it really ugly compared to the ThinkPad. It's thin, yes, and everything is streamlines nicely, but the overall design and color is ugly. Looking past it all, it's a plain looking machine. I even hate the hinge design. Heck, I find my old Inspiron 8200 to be a good looking machine. (The new Dells are ulgy, don't worry, I'm not a Dell fanboy

).

#100 Post by **archer6** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:21 pm

Sottozero wrote:I returned my T60p to Lenovo and got my MBP.

I forgot to ask if you are going to load boot camp and XP?

How long have you had your MBP and where did you purchase it?

Thanks
Archer

pundit · #101 Post by **pundit** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:15 pm

(I was silent for a bit because a day or so ago, this forum ate a few of my posts and it took me a bit to start opening up to it again. That said, I should just be typing out all my posts in Emacs first, like any real man would.)

christopher_wolf wrote:You know, if you want to explore the whole "What is life?" thing; you can grab an episode of Neon Genesis Evangelion, watch it, then listen to some Tangerine Dream, and maybe some trance as well; get together with a few friends in philosophy, then proceed to waste the *whoooolle* weekend away on it and various fumes.

Believe me, that is all too easy

Oh I can imagine such an environment will really put things in perspective.

Other than trance; I wouldn't want to be snapped out of something prematurely.

pundit · #102 Post by **pundit** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:21 pm

archer6 wrote:Now, this is downright eerie, only days ago I was having that same thought?!

If you create something clever, please share it with me. My email address is available within my profile here. Likewise if I come up with something that works (if you extend permission) I will send it to you.

It's not either very evil or intelligent, but hey, shaves off a couple hundred bucks (first post on that thread). I can spend it on all that other delicious apple paraphernalia; like a few hundred dollar Ipod case that prevents access to its interface.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to return to my super-engrossing game of Metroid Prime 2.

#103 Post by **archer6** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:34 pm

pundit wrote:Now if you'll excuse me, I have to return to my super-engrossing game of Metroid Prime 2.

Thanks for the link!

Metroid Prime 2..... Gripping!

Archer

Sottozero · #104 Post by **Sottozero** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:40 pm

archer6 wrote:
Sottozero wrote:I returned my T60p to Lenovo and got my MBP.
I forgot to ask if you are going to load boot camp and XP?

How long have you had your MBP and where did you purchase it?

Thanks
Archer

I got my MBP about two weeks ago and it's been perfect ever since. I am thrilled with the machine, and I'm glad I waited to get one of the later models. The bugs have been worked out, at least on mine.

I got the machine via Apple and I have a student discount. It came out to just over $2600 fully loaded. Another upside is that I don't have to get a docking station just to get a DVI port (shame on you, Lenovo). It also has FireWire 400 built-in, which is great because I have an external 250 GB drive. I'd prefer FW800, but oh well. Better than nothing.

I was considering Boot Camp, but I think I'll wait on that. Instead, I've been more interested in Parallels OSX Workstation, which is in beta 4. It allows a full WinXP virutal machine running UNDER OSX, which is much nicer than having to shut down and reboot into WinXP from OSX. The downside? No native graphics acceleration, so forget about gaming. If you want to game, go with Boot Camp.

My T60p was flawless, but I'm happier with my MBP. But that's just me.

FWIW.

kskim91 · #105 Post by **kskim91** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:47 pm

Sottozero wrote:My T60p was flawless, but I'm happier with my MBP. But that's just me.

Do you miss the larger screen area or do you not feel the difference? Especially the vertical area (1200->900).

rocketman · #106 Post by **rocketman** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:48 pm

I found these pics comparing the T60, 15" MacBook Pro and 15" Powerbook on another forum. Just thought it would be a good addition to this thread.
http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?t=292953

dxben · #107 Post by **dxben** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:54 pm

I think its highly worth noting that the MBP has its Gfx chip UNDERCLOCKED!!

What the hell is that?

I was considering it, but that instantly removed it from the running. LAME!

astro · #108 Post by **astro** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:21 pm

rocketman wrote:I found these pics comparing the T60, 15" MacBook Pro and 15" Powerbook on another forum. Just thought it would be a good addition to this thread.
http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?t=292953

Love the pic of the guy standing on his T41.

pundit · #109 Post by **pundit** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:00 pm

astro wrote:Love the pic of the guy standing on his T41.

That was hilarious! But if it boots fine and the screen is not distorted, he's proved his point.

Anyway, update (2) on my opinions on the MBP:
1. The vertical viewing angle is tiny, as in 10--15 degrees as discussed. But while the screen brightness/colour begins to change when you're outside this range, the actual change itself is tiny and nothing to worry about.

So this is a non-issue.

2. Heat. Oh god it gets so hot after a while. For the most part, if you're careful to keep your hands in touch-typing position all the freaking time, you're fine. But the instant you decide to chill out and rest to the metal on the side (especially on the left) be prepared for a rude shock.

And it turns out that happens to be my natural wrist/palm resting position when I want to use the trackpad with my right hand. Eeeek.

3. The anti-aliasing on OS X is so sweet. Oh god it's so perfect. Why is it non-trivial to turn on anti-aliasing on the terminal? But then again, I was probably being a newb.

craptacular · #110 Post by **craptacular** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:41 pm

I recently bought a Macbook Pro. I'm returning it, probably in favour of the T60P. Here is my review of the MBP (I posted this in the Apple support forum too).

Some observations about my new Macbook Pro. Disclaimer: this is coming from a Unix command-line addict (Solaris, SunOS, Ultrix, HP-UX, Irix, AIX, Linux).

0. The industrial design of the MBP body is gorgeous. The machine is also surprisingly light. The screen is very bright. The keyboard keys seemed a bit soft and not as responsive as I am used to on full-sized keyboards (more than once I hit a key, but the keystroke did not register; I guess I have to consciously press down harder).

1. The Aqua interface is exceptionally slick and much better than the interface I last saw with the Mac when I owned a PowerMac 7100 (that was running System 7.6 back in 1998). However, on Linux I find modern KDE to be nearly as slick. I find Windows XP to be fuglier but functional (and I have no intention to upgrade to Vista).

2. The MBP is a extremely hot when left plugged in to AC power. On battery power, it is very warm but acceptable. On AC it is freaking hot underneath. I'm not being overly-sensitive; it is EXTREMELY hot.

3. I am experiencing the same high-pitched noise issue that I'm reading about online. There are some software hacks to temporarily stop this noise (has to do with the dual core's usage). This is a minor point for me, as I expect it to be fixed with an Apple software patch soon.

4. The Unix environment of the BSD-ish MacOS is wonderful. It is not a Unix emulation hack like Cygwin on Windows. The only weirdness is the recommended use of 'sudo' instead of having a root account.

5. I am having a hard time installing new Unix/Linux open-source packages from DarwinPorts or Fink. For example, I could not install mysql last night, something I could do easily in Linux with a simple 'configure; make; make install'. This will take some time to learn, but I am disappointed that new software installation is not at least as easy as in Linux.

6. I'm a command-line junkie during software development, and the window-switching does not match the Alt-Tab'ing that I'm used to on Windows and Linux. Command-Tab in MacOS switches between applications (not multiple Terminal windows), and Command-Tilde cycles unidirectionally through the Terminal windows (but does not swap between two). This is a major issue.

7. I am loathe to admit this, but the MacOS dock at the bottom of the screen is not as functional for window management as the Windows XP bar. For example, in Windows each application is displayed at the bottom, and you can minimise/maximise each window through this bar. The Mac dock only shows active applications (not windows such as multiple Terminal windows), and one cannot min/max the windows through this.

8. Where the deuce is Photoshop compiled for Intel? It's coming next year??

9. I installed Windows Media Player 9.0 but could not get it to work. I need this to watch the AdultSwim clips on Cartoon Network.

I'm planning on replacing it with the only laptop that's the equal to the MBP: the Lenovo/IBM Thinkpad.

The only thing I will really miss about the MBP is the Unix, but I can run Linux inside of VMWare.

pundit · #111 Post by **pundit** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:03 pm

craptacular wrote:The only thing I will really miss about the MBP is the Unix, but I can run Linux inside of VMWare.

Or just run a distribution of GNU/Linux, now that both the video and wireless card have drivers. That said, I returned the T60p and can't get myself to love the MBP.

Is there yet another laptop out there that has the same specs, and level of coolness attached to it?

christopher_wolf · #112 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:04 pm

pundit wrote: Is there yet another laptop out there that has the same specs, and level of coolness attached to it?

No.

There haven't been laptops that come close to the Apples and Thinkpads for a *long* time. The Omnibooks were pretty good, but HP axed them. NEC had some good ones, but they were pretty much single-model shows and didn't really carry over to other lines too well. Toshiba has some pretty good ones, but they have recently payed more attention to putting more "media" capabilities in them and not beefing up the robustness.

pundit · #113 Post by **pundit** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:09 pm

christopher_wolf wrote:No.

Rhetorical question.

dxben · #114 Post by **dxben** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:33 am

Thought I'd mention that it appears the Thinkpad T60 and X series can now have audio output through OSX, I posted an update to this in this thread in the OSX on TP section:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=23768

No audio input is possible with this method, but this nearly closes all the major feature gaps for native hardware with OSX. If you can live without power management and audio input, and presuming you have an Atheros based wifi card (internal or external), you have everything you need on the T60 for OSX. Very cool!

astro · #115 Post by **astro** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:56 am

pundit wrote:Is there yet another laptop out there that has the same specs, and level of coolness attached to it?

Pundit, FWIW, the only other laptop I would consider would be an Asus... Probably a V6.

Scratch · #116 Post by **Scratch** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:36 pm

I only have about 10 days to make my decision on keeping the T60p or jumping back to Apple for another "Powerbook" this time a loaded MBP.

I prefer OSX to XP. My current PB G4 has been fantastic for the past 2+ years and now with the MBP's ability to run XP when needed it's a difficult choice. I won't have $3k to drop on a laptop for another 2 or 3 years.

My only need for an XP box is to run CAD/CAE apps when traveling or working from home. So Boot Camp and the upcoming Leopard release should be able to support that. I use the laptop for a lot of PhotoShop work and prefer the Apple environment for that.

I am always amazed that with all of the PC development that's gone on in recent years, only Apple has been able to create such a slick Suspend and Resume functionality for their machines. You close the display and the machine is in sleep almost instantly regardless of what's running and when you open the display it's waiting for you to type your password before you can get your hands to the keyboard. When the desktop pops your wireless/wired network connection is already working and your supended mail app is already downloading in the background. The design and responsiveness of the working environment never ceases to amaze me and this is on a lowly G4.

The T60p is a great machine and is the best portable IBM workstation that I've had to date and I've had a few, but the constant network notifications, the multitude of systray icons, the delays in reconnecting after Suspend/Resume, the need to run Diskeeper in the background along with Sophos, MS Defender, etc all detract from the pleasure of the machine itself.

My main concern with going down the MBP path is the OpenGL functionality with the XP drivers on the Apple hardware implementation. Can the system cooling function handle the additional load of the GPU running at normal clock speeds? They underclocked it. Can I use the CAD optimized v5200 drivers instead of the x1600's? I prefer the widescreen and always use an external mouse and SpacePilot/Traveler for CAD work so the single button in the XP environment doesn't phase me; the lack of expansion potential, the ExpressCard/34 only slot, the loss of FW800 do however.

Sorry for the ramblings, but it's indicative of my state of mind. I'm in a quandry on this one.

Is the graphics support via dual boot sufficient for high end CAD?
Should I stay the T60p path and wait for the next generation MBP?
Can the MBP handle the heat?

Any opinions?

christopher_wolf · #117 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:43 pm

Scratch wrote:
I am always amazed that with all of the PC development that's gone on in recent years, only Apple has been able to create such a slick Suspend and Resume functionality for their machines. You close the display and the machine is in sleep almost instantly regardless of what's running and when you open the display it's waiting for you to type your password before you can get your hands to the keyboard. When the desktop pops your wireless/wired network connection is already working and your supended mail app is already downloading in the background. The design and responsiveness of the working environment never ceases to amaze me and this is on a lowly G4.

Just to point out that is a function of Windows for the most part on Thinkpads, my T43 has actually a slightly smaller suspend time ~2 seconds) whilst my Powerbook has around 3 seconds....The hardware of the machine, for the most part, isn't the limiting factor. Rather, it is the OS. Slim down Windows enough and you will get some pretty good suspend/resume times. By the time I go to swipe my finger, the T43 has already gone through both Wired and Wireless auth and connects and, if I left Winamp playing, picks up directly where Winamp left off in less than a second.

Almost all of the computers I have seen have the necessary BIOS version and hardware to support near instant suspend/resume times.

Clean process list translates into less to worry about for the system whilst going to a state like suspend or hibernate.

Scratch · #118 Post by **Scratch** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:53 pm

You're right there. It's absolutely a function of the OS, but when forced to run all of the system maintenace utilities, license managers, etc, it's hard to slim windows down that much. I've never had to do anything to slim down OSX and the responsiveness remains consistent. The lack of required tweaking and maintenance is one of the main things that appeals to me about OSX as my primary operating system and I can only do that legally on an MBP.

christopher_wolf · #119 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:14 pm

Scratch wrote:You're right there. It's absolutely a function of the OS, but when forced to run all of the system maintenace utilities, license managers, etc, it's hard to slim windows down that much. I've never had to do anything to slim down OSX and the responsiveness remains consistent. The lack of required tweaking and maintenance is one of the main things that appeals to me about OSX as my primary operating system and I can only do that legally on an MBP.

Hmmm, that and ACPI and the various sleep states aren't supported on the OS X on a PC if I recall correctly.

christopher_wolf · #120 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:19 pm

Scratch wrote:You're right there. It's absolutely a function of the OS, but when forced to run all of the system maintenace utilities, license managers, etc, it's hard to slim windows down that much. I've never had to do anything to slim down OSX and the responsiveness remains consistent. The lack of required tweaking and maintenance is one of the main things that appeals to me about OSX as my primary operating system and I can only do that legally on an MBP.

Hmmm, that and ACPI and the various sleep states aren't supported on the OS X on a PC if I recall correctly....Yet.

T60P VS MBP, now that it can run windows......

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