Can W500 motherboard go into T60?

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PurpleMelbourne
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Can W500 motherboard go into T60?

#1 Post by PurpleMelbourne » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:46 pm

I've been looking at taking one of my T61P's to Frankenpad levels. While looking into it, it seems that switching over to a W series motherboard would deliver even more power. I haven't been able to find any mention of it so presumably there must be something holding back the idea.

What I'm thinking is that perhaps the placement holes for the motherboard are likely the problem, but maybe some 3D printed placement components may be added with super glue to the base might be enough to resolve that issue.
Or maybe there are other more serious issues?

Has anyone tried placing a W500 (or510, 520, etc) into a lovely 4:3 T60 (or T60P or 14" T61) case?

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Re: Can W500 motherboard go into T60?

#2 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:07 pm

No, wont fit. Try putting an X220 mobo in. It will fit no prob. Just a matter adapting everything. If you need W5** power that badly, just get a W5**
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Re: Can W500 motherboard go into T60?

#3 Post by NonesensE » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:47 am

Yes, it is possible to put a W500 or T500 board into a T6x shell. On 51nb, this mod is known as the T62, google (and Google translate) it. 15" wide works, obviously, but I think they made it work in a 15" 4:3 body, too. Seems to be tricky, though.
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Re: Can W500 motherboard go into T60?

#4 Post by TPFanatic » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:03 am

As NonesensE said it was done...

However it is incredibly unfeasible for the following reasons.
1. The left hand ports are completely different.
2. The anterior-right daughterboard and port is different.
3. The LCD cable is different.
4. You get an extra SD card reader and mini PCI port, but the HDD and ODD would stick out.


The 3. issue should be less of a concern to cramming a 15.4" board into a tiny 14.1" 4:3 model, because the heights of 15.4" and 14.1" 4:3 screens are so similar, however the Thinklight may have moved between generations so cable modding is not out of the question.

If this does not kill the project, points 1. and 2. will,

because you have to cut the left sides of the body, that risks damage to the vulnerable PC-card door mechanism, and the result will not be beautiful.

Lastly the highest benefit of the T500 generation is the use of cheaper DDR3 RAM, so it is cheaper to max out that a T61. The RAM and CPU bus speeds are also a little faster, however, the T61 can be quad-core modded unlike the T500. In the end, while I may tout using the faster Thinkpad, I'm not sure the speed makes that much of a difference between these two close generations. T500 is still Core 2 Duo. Montevina was like Sonoma, "Let's increase the bus speed and pretend 2.53 ghz is faster than 2.5, who gaf about heat."


Lastly the T70 project by 51nb absolutely blows the T500 era tech away, and that is designed as a 4:3 board.


edit:

A better attempt to put a Montevina board in a 4:3 laptop was El Sahef's R500/R60 Frankenpad. Use of R-series parts negated the aforementioned point 3. The R-series's use of ABS plastic may also make it easier to cut apart to solve points 1. and 2. Also El Sahef came up with a genius design to keep the ODD (or normal 9.5mm ultrabay caddy) inside the body of the laptop.


For some reason Lenovo decided they wanted the microphone in the lid, which is why the T500 has its proprietary LVDS cable. However the R500's lid is actually interchangeable with R61's because its microphone is kept in the lower body so the cable did not change. The R500 still features a left hand Displayport and removes the S-Video port, and only has a Modem port in the anterior-right.
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Re: Can W500 motherboard go into T60?

#5 Post by PurpleMelbourne » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:41 pm

What marvelous information :-)

So the W500 is infeasible as it would require replacing large chunks of plastic of the base case.
X220 is a possibility with some modding of the HD slot with USB sockets in its place.
R500 is interesting. I see that according to ThinkWiki there is are two versions
Intel 4500MHD
ATI Radion HD 3470 128MB

Another interest which I didn't specifically mention is disabling the Management Engine NSA/CIA snooping hardware which has been recently compromised by scammers.
I see that its been done on the X220, T60 and T400, and may be possible on R500. But there is currently no prospect in sight for the PM965 chipset T61 to be defanged.

I've already got myself 3 T61P's, a dead T60P, QX9300, Q9100 and been thinking about acquiring a P9700.

Perhaps this is more of a laptop art installation than a practical project. Having an Amiga heritage I was seriously impressed by the severe hacking that the T61/P has recieved to go into a T60/P, so perhaps I'm just emotionally attached to the idea of making 9 year old computer hardware almost as good as new. But its the graphics that let things down and hence thoughts of the W500 came up.

The T70 looks pretty cool except for the loss of docking support which rules out adding a GT 640 card as described by one user.

I've looked in vain for PCIE GPU upgrades etc.
Is there any more GPU capable solution for the T60?

X220 sounds like a worthwhile project if it will fit and match some of the sockets in the T60 case.
Benefits include:
Coreboot / Libreboot, sata3, DDR3, i5 2410M (@35W TDP) to i7 3940XM (@ 55W TDP,) FHD mod for display bandwidth for UXGA and external GPU support via docking station!
Looks like getting the video cable working will be the problem to resolve as well as case modifications requiring some 3D printing.
Perhaps a 14" T60 would be appropriate. :lol:

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Re: Can W500 motherboard go into T60?

#6 Post by NonesensE » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:59 am

A T/W500 board should also be possible to fit into a 14" 4:3 T6x, with even more space problems at the drive bays. I've never seen such an attempt, though, people always want the affs screens (only available in 15").

X220 board is not feasible. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks to me like a completely different design, upside down, nothing matches. I think Thinkpad4by3's point was small laptop = small board so it should be possible to adapt, but this is not true.
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Re: Can W500 motherboard go into T60?

#7 Post by RealBlackStuff » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:53 am

If you have a 15" 4:3 T60, you can put in the Intel or nVidia mobo from a 14.1" 4:3 T61.
Forum member TuuS sells brand new mobos with NVS140M nVidia GPU.
That combo makes the famous T601F Frankenpad, together with up to 8GB RAM and CPU up to X9000.
Tons of posting about Frankies in this T6x subforum.
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Re: Can W500 motherboard go into T60?

#8 Post by TPFanatic » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:28 am

W500's graphics are far from modern though. You can only run a niche worth of 3D games and at minimal settings + the lowest resolution to get close to 30 fps. No modern titles at all. NFS Hot Pursuit 2010 is out, Mass Effect 2 is laggy; Unity games can work.

You're best off getting an IPS monitor and plug in a Thinkpad USB keyboard to a powerful desktop.
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Re: Can W500 motherboard go into T60?

#9 Post by PurpleMelbourne » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:25 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:53 am
If you have a 15" 4:3 T60, you can put in the Intel or nVidia mobo from a 14.1" 4:3 T61.
Just for clarrification, I have one loose T61P motherboard (FRU 43Y9044) with the audio jacks at the front right side instead of left side between USB and Express slot. But the slots do not match my (dead) 15.0" T60P... are there different T60P's with audio sockets in differnt places?

T61P 15.4" and W500 seem nearly identical.
One with NVidia and DDR2 / PM965 and the other ATI with DDR3 / GM45.
Are they otherwise the same? From what I can tell its just a BIOS software issue to get Quad running on W500, and LibreBoot is now supporting W500 hardware.

I watched a 30 minute video https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comme ... boot_x230/ on how to make and install Coreboot to an X230 with a RasberyPi.
On the LibreBoot website they show how to flash a T500 with a BeagleBone Black https://libreboot.org/docs/install/t500 ... patibility instead of a RasberyPi, presumably you can adapt slightly to do it either way. The procedure for T500 and W500 are theoritically identical.
This probably would also work for the W500 with LibreBoot given the GM45 chipset is supported, unlike the T61's PM965 :cry:

Perhaps 4:3 apsect ratio will call for plan C...
W500 (or wide T61P) may go slim (either 14" or 15") if the CD is forgone and perhaps a short MSATA adaptor card to narrow the drive bay by an inch.
When I finally open up my T60P I guess I can check how the wide T61P will fit and compare W500 also. Sounds silly for a T61P instead of getting the correct size, but for W500 it would be the only way.
:?: Can the CD slot do SATA2?

Plan D would be 3D print a replacement case and screen mount. Hmmm that sounds difficult... but I have ideas for reinforcing plastic with sheet metal... Maybe next year...

Still dreaming to have a Thinkpad replace my Dell Precision M6300 WUXGA IPS 17" Quadro 3600M 512MB. Like T61 also nobbled SATA1 but without any custom BIOS to make it SATA2 or 1066Mhz CPU's. Though my laptops are mostly deskbound with 27" or 30" monitors, its the principle of 4:3 that counts! :lol:

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Re: Can W500 motherboard go into T60?

#10 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:52 am

PurpleMelbourne wrote:
RealBlackStuff wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:53 am
If you have a 15" 4:3 T60, you can put in the Intel or nVidia mobo from a 14.1" 4:3 T61.
Just for clarrification, I have one loose T61P motherboard (FRU 43Y9044) with the audio jacks at the front right side instead of left side between USB and Express slot. But the slots do not match my (dead) 15.0" T60P... are there different T60P's with audio sockets in differnt places?

T61P 15.4" and W500 seem nearly identical.
One with NVidia and DDR2 / PM965 and the other ATI with DDR3 / GM45.
Are they otherwise the same? From what I can tell its just a BIOS software issue to get Quad running on W500, and LibreBoot is now supporting W500 hardware.

I watched a 30 minute video https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comme ... boot_x230/ on how to make and install Coreboot to an X230 with a RasberyPi.
On the LibreBoot website they show how to flash a T500 with a BeagleBone Black https://libreboot.org/docs/install/t500 ... patibility instead of a RasberyPi, presumably you can adapt slightly to do it either way. The procedure for T500 and W500 are theoritically identical.
This probably would also work for the W500 with LibreBoot given the GM45 chipset is supported, unlike the T61's PM965 :cry:

Perhaps 4:3 apsect ratio will call for plan C...
W500 (or wide T61P) may go slim (either 14" or 15") if the CD is forgone and perhaps a short MSATA adaptor card to narrow the drive bay by an inch.
When I finally open up my T60P I guess I can check how the wide T61P will fit and compare W500 also. Sounds silly for a T61P instead of getting the correct size, but for W500 it would be the only way.
:?: Can the CD slot do SATA2?

Plan D would be 3D print a replacement case and screen mount. Hmmm that sounds difficult... but I have ideas for reinforcing plastic with sheet metal... Maybe next year...

Still dreaming to have a Thinkpad replace my Dell Precision M6300 WUXGA IPS 17" Quadro 3600M 512MB. Like T61 also nobbled SATA1 but without any custom BIOS to make it SATA2 or 1066Mhz CPU's. Though my laptops are mostly deskbound with 27" or 30" monitors, its the principle of 4:3 that counts!
Shapeways can 3D print stainless steel. How about CNC? The options are limitless. 4:3 18" 3:2 W540p with classic keyboard.
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Re: Can W500 motherboard go into T60?

#11 Post by RealBlackStuff » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:16 am

Your T61P motherboard (FRU 43Y9044) is from a 14.1" 4:3 so it will fit in a T60 15" 4:3 chassis to make a Frankie 14.1" widescreen.
You will lose the use of the modem, but that's it (and who cares?).
Check this forum for loads of how-to-make-Frankie instructions.

Warning: if that is an older mobo from before 08/08 the nVidia GPU might be dicey!

With Middleton's BIOS it will run at SATA II speed and (after the BIOS install) can then also run a Penryn CPU.

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Re: Can W500 motherboard go into T60?

#12 Post by TPFanatic » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:07 pm

Why not live with the W500's original 16:10? You get WUXGA and WSXGA+ which are widened versions of UXGA and SXGA+. No loss of vertical space unless you're building some 15" thing with QXGA.

Say you really want to cram a 15.4" W500 board into a T60. It would have to be a 14.1" 4:3 T60 unless you have a means of extending the LCD cable. The Thinklight is probably a goner.

Many case and frame modifications would be necessary.

Case

1. You have to cut out the lefthand side of the lower case for the I/O. W500 has 3 USB ports and Displayport that pushes the VGA port to the rear of the laptop.

2. You have to cut a square out of the front of the laptop and through the palmrest lip for W500's Audio jacks, to the left of the touchpad.

3. You have to cut another rectangle out to the right of the touchpad for W500's SD card reader. Or desolder it from the motherboard because it's a slow pos.

4. You have to widen and possibly destroy the LCD-cable hole in the lid and front bezel because the W500 LCD cable is wider and shifted to the right.

Magnesium Frame

1. Because the VGA port is moved to the rear of the laptop, you have to file down this already weak part of the frame on the left side of the laptop. The laptop will become structurally very weak in this area after making room for the VGA port. Instead, if you can do it safely, maybe file down the extending edge or completely remove the VGA port instead.

2. W500 has an extra Mini PCI slot for Turboram to the right of the WLAN card, you may have to file the frame over there to make room for it.

3. In many other places I am sure you will have to file down the magnesium frame so it does not hit chips on the motherboard.

Losses

1. Structural rigidity in the rear left between the vent and VGA port.

2. Optical drive.

3. Full size 2.5" drive.

4. Thinklight.

5. Modem.

6. Ultrabay and ultrabay light.

7. And anything else that might get botched.



I understand what you want to do though. I did put a T500 motherboard into a Z60m and that was an adventure with many wrong turns. It will be tough but you probably can mod a W500 board into a 4:3 T60. It might not look like a T60 anymore though.

You should get a W500 nameplate to put on your T60 when it is done.
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Re: Can W500 motherboard go into T60?

#13 Post by PurpleMelbourne » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:49 pm

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:16 am
Your T61P motherboard (FRU 43Y9044) is from a 14.1" 4:3 so it will fit in a T60 15" 4:3 chassis to make a Frankie.
<snip>
Warning: if that is an older mobo from before 08/08 the nVidia GPU might be dicey!
That is mostly good news :-)
Except for the audio socket of course.

Can the GPU be replaced if it fails? I see that brand new replacement chips are available. But putting the motherboard through an oven would obviously kill all the plastics, such as CPU socket. So either they ALL get replaced or it needs to be done with a localised heat source. I have also wondered if there is a pin compatible upgrade that could be put in place if this worthwhile if its even possible.
TPFanatic wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:07 pm
Why not live with the W500's original 16:10? You get WUXGA and WSXGA+ which are widened versions of UXGA and SXGA+. No loss of vertical space unless you're building some 15" thing with QXGA.
<snip>
You should get a W500 nameplate to put on your T60 when it is done.
That is a nice list of details. You make a compelling case to look for another solution.
So what would be required is making a new video cable, and probably making a new metal frame from a 3D printed prototype, first from alluminium and then MAYBE from magnesium.
And then as you point out no space. So the computer would be half crippled just to get fix the aspect ratio for rare occasions away from a desktop...

Or...
:idea: Hack the screen.
It might be easier to make some kind of Frankenstein rotatable screen.
To avoid making the screen much thicker and heavier would require converting the current screen into a shell for a much thinner display. If there were OLED screens available for less than the price of a kidney then it could be worth the effot. So this might just be an idea for a year or two in the future with cheaper components.
But why not just use a tablet with keyboard dock :?

Or...
Build an entire new case and frame around appropriate motherboard and modern such as... Ummm... :?

So...
The T70 starts to look pretty good. It loses the expansion slot, but everything else is pretty easy. :roll:

Summary of 4:3 options...
World of compromises, choose what you can best do without:

W500 LibreBoot customisation potential for cost of major physical hacking and loss of functionality.
T61P in known form with Management Engine snooping in tact.
T70 loses expansion slot but brings major functionality such as 16GB 2Ghz RAM and use of Samsung 960 Pro SSD but Management Engine on steroids.
[also including state of the art NSA cell modem built into CPU!] <bloody hell those spooks are serious!>

4:3 Conclusion:
:arrow: T61P motherboard <maybe expensive GPU upgrade is possible?> to retain expansion dock
:arrow: optionally switch to T70 to swap expansion dock for much more speed and much more snooping HW
:arrow: iPad Pro in portrait with keyboard :BAAAD!:

:arrow: 16:10 switch to W500 for faster RAM and LibreBoot

It would a glorious mod, but mostly hacking for the sake of hacking...

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Re: Can W500 motherboard go into T60?

#14 Post by NonesensE » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:09 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:16 am
Your T61P motherboard (FRU 43Y9044) is from a 14.1" 4:3 so it will fit in a T60 15" 4:3 chassis to make a Frankie.
Nope. His
PurpleMelbourne wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:25 am
loose T61P motherboard (FRU 43Y9044) with the audio jacks at the front right side instead of left side
is definitely a 14" widescreen board and not compatible with the other formats.
Sometimes coming over from the German forum...
X62s 3rd batch, T61 14" 4:3 (soon to be T70)

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Re: Can W500 motherboard go into T60?

#15 Post by RealBlackStuff » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:53 am

Apologies for giving you false hope. :oops:
NonesensE made sense! :mrgreen:

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Re: Can W500 motherboard go into T60?

#16 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:49 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:Apologies for giving you false hope. :oops:
NonesensE made sense! :mrgreen:
If you believe in it, anything is possible. A Intel Nuc in an X61s would be possible, why not in a T60p. Its Intel Graphics would definitely be more powerful than the graphics in a W500. Breakout the soldering iron!!!
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Re: Can W500 motherboard go into T60?

#17 Post by Saucey » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:35 am

I tried to put a W500 motherboard onto a T60p frame.
I didn't really know what I was doing, there are a lot of mount points that have to be cut off.
You could always cover up all the ports that needed to be cut out on the left side of the laptop, but headphone/microphone jacks would be impossible to get into, recessed into the body too far in.
Additionally, I didn't feel too confident about being unable to secure the motherboard correctly, due to the screws in the bottom not aligning with the mobo.
A bad LED inverter blown something on the mobo, so that project was scrapped.

I've been meaning to give it another go, now that I have a dremel, I probably won't be worried about hacking away because it wouldn't take so long.
I'm considering cutting the right sides of the w500 and t60p then using some sort of epoxy or glue to connect them again, so that stucturally, most of the laptop will be solid.
The complex part would be fitting the keyboard and palmrest onto the W500 bottom frame and making sure it stays correctly.
Could always cut away and glue it up, probably look nasty.

I'll have to review El Sahef's Frankenpad!
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Re: Can W500 motherboard go into T60?

#18 Post by Seggybop » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:57 pm

PurpleMelbourne wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:41 pm
The T70 looks pretty cool except for the loss of docking support which rules out adding a GT 640 card as described by one user.
You can extend an M.2 slot from the T70 to attach a GPU with much better performance than the original dock, although it's up to you to construct a clean solution. However, I think the iGPU in the 7700HQ is already twice as fast as a GT640.

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Re: Can W500 motherboard go into T60?

#19 Post by unixed » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:19 am

Saucey wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:35 am
.. there are a lot of mount points that have to be cut off...
Those bosses are for the T60 interposer card and the W500 planar does not utilize it, similar to the R61 planar.

The W500 LCD cable connector on the planar is offset to the right relative to that of the T60 which is a more significant problem than extending the LVDS cable connecting to the LCD. Searching for "T62p" will reveal a successful T500 planar in 15.0" T60 transplant, but to my knowledge no one has repeated the oft-considered feat.

The R500 planar does not have the offset connector problem relative to the R60, but unless you have a relatively rare ATI GPU planar or want to run two internal SATA disks (RAID) or want the DP connector or ... it is questionable whether it justifies the considerable effort.

QWERTY Andreas benchmarks the T61p 15.4" 256 MB NVIDIA FX 570M as equal to or better (overclocked) than the W500 GPU so this is an easier "T62p" option. The trick here is to find a defect-free NVIDIA chip, which is difficult, except in comparison to finding a similar 14.1" T61p 128 MB NVIDIA one.

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