Thinkpads Forum

Is this a simple plug-in/swap-out to upgrade from my T61p's original Intel 802.11abg wireless to the Intel 4965AGN or the 5100AGN (offered by Lenovo)?

I'm using WinXP Pro SP3

Thanks

It's a very easy upgrade, with a few exceptions that can complicate it.

First issue, if you get the exact same intel model that Lenovo uses, but it doesn't have the Lenovo FRU part number on it, then your system bios will cause the computer to not boot (1802 error). This can be patched with a freeware program on some models (search for "no 1802" app), or by using a 3rd party bios (middleton bios will enable any pcie wireless and enable SATA2 harddrive support. There are also bios available that patch only the pcie if that's all you want.

Next issue. Some units without wifi "n" support have only two internal antenna's, and some have three, even if only two are used. You can tell by removing the palmrest and keyboard. If your current card has 3 antenna wires, then your set. If it has only two, then look for a 3rd wire that is tucked away under it, if present, then your set.

If you only have two antenna's, then you can add one, or you can run the "n" card with only two (reduced range).

I'm told that you can route a 3rd antenna up into the palmrest area instead of disassembling the lid (a lot less work as the lids can be difficult to disassemble. I'm told this works just as well having the two antenna in the lid and the third in the palmrest, but most newer units will have the three antenna already.

I've only seen older low-spec t61 models with 2 antenna. Every t61p that I've worked on has had 3, one of mine actually has 5 antenna, even though only 3 are used.

Hi TuuS,

Nice to hear from you (over at this Forum) ..... I'm considering purchasing a third 15.4 T61p T9300 with an 08/08 date code at a reasonable price .... unfortunately it's a 6457-Y74 that only came with the Intel 802.11abg.

Can you recommend a reliable source for something like a Lenovo branded Intel 4965AGN (that is what I have now from the factory on my other two T61p units)?

Thanks!

Another option that works with no hacks is 42T0825 which is ThinkPad abgn card, Atheros-chipped.

You can get them pretty cheap. I have a couple here, but not sure if I'm going to need them all or not, but I think you can buy them on ebay for about $10, I just haven't checked if they are lenovo branded or not. If you have trouble finding one, we can figure out a swap and I'll send you one of mine, although on a nice t61p like that, I'd consider enabling the sata2 controller, then the bios will let you use any card.

Thanks ..... I do plan to apply the Middleton Bios after my current warranties expire and install Solid State HDDs in my main bays and displace my CD/DVD writers with 500 or 750GB platter HDDs.

Presently, running two platter HDDs with the lid closed on a docking station seems to add a lot of heat to the system. I figure a Solid State drive in the main bay should run cooler.

Still not sure about buying that third T61p as that may be a bit of overkill from a spare unit standpoint.

Will let you know if I do ... thanks again.

I'd get it if it's a good deal, they are rare, and will only get harder to find as the older ones die off.

As for the warranty, I installed the middleton bios before the warranty expired. I'm not sure if it would really make a difference with your warranty unless they could prove it effected anything adversely, and I think it's been well established that it is safe. Worse case, if they notice it they would probably install a factory bios, just as they would replace a linux operating system with the original windows if your system was being repaired. The bios is just a different form of software really.

Let me know if you can't find a good deal on the wifi card and we'll work something out.

ps. I got a really nice T61 with a T7500 with (very rare) Sept 2008 date code that I'm thinking of selling.

TuuS wrote:First issue, if you get the exact same intel model that Lenovo uses, but it doesn't have the Lenovo FRU part number on it, then your system bios will cause the computer to not boot (1802 error). This can be patched with a freeware program on some models (search for "no 1802" app), or by using a 3rd party bios

FYI: ONLY Thinkpads older than T43/R52/X41 can be fixed using the NO-1802 program.
From T43/R52/X41 onwards you need a modified BIOS to overcome wifi-card incompatibility..

I was told the latest no1802 patch works with the T61, but never actually tried it. Are you certain there isn't a version that will work on this model?

middleton's bios should allow you to use aftermarket wireless card in the T61 machine.

Hi,

I am the happy new owner of a 08/04 6457-Y74. I take it the build date means I have the bad GPU

I had a non-Lenovo Intel 4965AGN card kicking around (pulled from a dead Sony Vaio SZ780) kicking around so I sought to upgrade from the 3945ABG card that came in my T61p. I installed Middleton's 2.29 BIOS (many thanks! my forthcoming SSD will appreciate it!) and installed the card.

I have also tried the same card in a HP 8510w and I must say the wireless reception was considerably better in the HP. I'm concerned that I don't have the antenna cables (yes, my T61p has all 3...) hooked up in the correct order. What IS the correct order? Does it even matter?

EDIT: Found the answer here! Guess the antennas are just a bit better in the HP.

Bests,
--jeff

I want to upgrade a T61 766112U (mfd 08/08?) to a
Seagate Momentus 7200.4 ST160LT016 160GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache 2.5" SATA 3.0Gb/s

From what I have read here so far.. This laptop is not CMOS ready for SATA3 HDD.
Is that correct? If I can figure out where to get the proper upgrade, will that allow the use of this HDD? as well as upgrading to the subject of this thread?

thanks
chas

schuetzen wrote:I want to upgrade a T61 766112U (mfd 08/08?) to a
Seagate Momentus 7200.4 ST160LT016 160GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache 2.5" SATA 3.0Gb/s

From what I have read here so far.. This laptop is not CMOS ready for SATA3 HDD.
Is that correct? If I can figure out where to get the proper upgrade, will that allow the use of this HDD? as well as upgrading to the subject of this thread?

thanks
chas

you can use those SATAII Hdd in the ThinkPad, these platter hdd won't exceed SATAI speed. There are also BIOS firmware mod upgrade available if you need SSD, but i would advise you not do the BIOS firmware upgrade until you have more experiences with upgrades.

I haven't read anywhere that the Middleton BIOS has bricked someone's laptop.
I have applied it to my own T61 machines and they all have improved SATA speed.
The added SLIC tables made for easier Windows 7 loading.
If you know how to update a BIOS, I don't see why you should wait till an SSD comes your way.

I upgraded my intel 4965 ag card to a lenovo-branded 4965 agn card for ~10$ on ebay - best purchase I have made - the connection at my school would saturate the g connection, but it works nicely with the N connection. On a related note, I could (and still can't) see a reason to go for the more expensive newer cards, 300mb/s is definately fast eoungh for most things, and mine had a lenovo FRU, so it did not require any bios flashing (I'm using the stock sata 1 drive, so I don't need sata 2 for anything).

RE the antennas, if you have a intel 4965ag card, you *should* have 3 antennas, since all the 4965 card had the connectors for 3 antennas.

eecon wrote:Is this a simple plug-in/swap-out to upgrade from my T61p's original Intel 802.11abg wireless to the Intel 4965AGN or the 5100AGN (offered by Lenovo)?

Bottom line in response to the OP, YES for the Lenovo branded 4965AGN adapter, part number 42T0865. Just search eBay for the part number. As mentioned above, they sell for as little as $10. It will work just fine in N mode whether you connect two or three antennas.

No BIOS patching and you probably don't even need a driver upgrade, pull the palmrest and keyboard, swap the adapter, then just re-enter your wifi security key and start surfing.

I've done this upgrade myself more than a few times. Good luck.

JeffCullen wrote:Hi,

I am the happy new owner of a 08/04 6457-Y74. I take it the build date means I have the bad GPU


--jeff

Yes, unfortunately your GPU could fail at any time. According to my sources at Lenovo, the number of failed units is extremely low, no where near approaching the number of average harddrive, ram, etc failures that all manufactures have, but it is a major issue simply because the replacement systemboard costs $575, if it fails.

There are less costly alternative, but I do not recommend a repaired or refurbished board. Any patching work that doesn't replace the GPU most likely won't last, and in my own personal opinion, you can't repair these boards without potentially causing damage elsewhere on the board, so I would prefer a good used board over a refurb/repaired board, especially considering you can usually get them cheaper.

I'll send you a PM with further info as to not completely take over this topic, but to be brief... clean out your unit, replace the thermal paste and use thinkpadfancontrol, running the fan on high speed while doing any type of heavy use, and avoid unnecessary booting and shutting down. I keep mine on 24/7 and it lasted close to 4years, but now I have a late model unit with the improved chip, so hopefully this problem is behind me.

Good luck

TuuS wrote:According to my sources at Lenovo, the number of failed units is extremely low, no where near approaching the number of average harddrive, ram, etc

Good to hear!

TuuS wrote:but it is a major issue simply because the replacement systemboard costs $575, if it fails.

Sure, if you buy it directly from IBM/Lenovo. However, working T61 motherboards sell for as litle as $60 on this forum and eBay. Or for an easy fix, just buy a used T61, typcially $150 and up, and just swap your hard drive. You can then sell your parts machine to further reduce the repair cost.

schuetzen wrote:I want to upgrade a T61 766112U (mfd 08/08?) to a Seagate Momentus 7200.4 ST160LT016 160GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache 2.5" SATA 3.0Gb/s

lead_org wrote:you can use those SATAII Hdd in the ThinkPad, these platter hdd won't exceed SATAI speed. There are also BIOS firmware mod upgrade available if you need SSD, but i would advise you not do the BIOS firmware upgrade until you have more experiences with upgrades.

Another QUOTE....
From another thread, written by RealBlackStuff on 1 Sep 2011 concerning upgrading to a Momentous SATA in a T61 -- his quote starts below..
"You can put in ANY SATA hard disk that is 2.5" wide and 9.5mm high.
Rather than a Seagate, go for a WD Scorpio Blue (5400rpm) or Black (7200rpm).
Buy from Newegg, which has some of the best prices around.
You will only need a Phillips #1 screwdriver and about 5 minutes to swap out your old HD for the new one.
Re-use the HD-tray and rails that are mounted around the old HD. Watch how everything is mounted (upside down).
You use the recovery set that Lenovo sent you to re-install the OS, incl. the Recovery partition (ca. 1 hour) end quote


The above does not seem to say anything about limitations on SATA speed (ie, 1 vs 3.0)
so I am wondering again whether I can use the HDD I have already which is the first quote in this message.??? I would like to ask RealBlackStuff what I would need to do to this "new" T61 7661 in order to utilize the 160gb replacement I received last week? If I can just slide it in and start loading the XP Pro DVD which came with the laptop, that would be great (always something... I have no recovery disks with this newish T61 sigh) --- however, if it is not going to function at all - I guess I can sell it on ebay or otherwise... And continue to try to find a slower SATA drive instead. HELP??? thanks chas

Chas--the drive will plug in and work in your T61 perfectly. Practically speaking, you don't need to worry about any of this unless you were going to install a SSD (Solid-State Drive)--any spinning-platter hard drive will not deliver an appreciable performance increase (especially not in day to day practical applications) by unlocking the SATA-II capability of the T61 chipset. Install your Seagate Momentus and enjoy!

For edumakayshunal purposes, there are three SATA standards at this point in time -- original SATA (1.5Gb/s), SATA-II (3.0Gb/s) and SATA-III (6.0Gb/s). The stock BIOS on the T61 limits the chipset to the original SATA spec. Luckily, newer drives are backwards-compatible with older standards, so a SATA-II or SATA-III drive will plug into the T61 and Just Work.

If you were upgrading to a SSD which offers significantly higher performance capabilities when compared to a spinning-platter hard drive, then you'd certainly want to unlock the SATA-II capability of the T61's chipset by using Middleton's BIOS.

You can use that drive no problem.
However, without applying the Middleton BIOS, the drive will just run slower (SATA I) than what it is capable of (SATA II).

A bit OT, but since I'm the OP, here are two follow-up questions:

Do the penryn T61p units also support SATA III for the main HDD with the Middleton BIOS?

Also, doesn't the T61p ultabay harddrive adapter still limit speeds for a second internal HDD (because of the ultrabay's serial-to-parrallel interface) to only parrallel HDD speeds of DMA100 (or DMA166), regardless of the BIOS hack or speed of the SATA HDD actually used in the ultrabay adaptor?

I can answer the questions (I think) - only the *220 series have sata 3 - everything else above the T60 (which is sata 1) is Sata 2

The ultrabay in the T61 is PATA, so you will take a bit of a speed hit there.

eecon: *all* T61 and T61p units are locked to SATA-I for the main hard drive. Middleton's bios unlocks SATA-II, because the Intel chipset used in the T61/T61p supports SATA-II. Lenovo's BIOS simply locks it out.

No T61 or T61p supports SATA-III. Penryn T61/T61ps use the same Intel chipset (965 Mobile, otherwise known as Santa Rosa) as Merom-powered units.

Anything in the UltraBay of a T61 or T61p will always be converted to PATA. Not sure if it's DMA100 or DMA133, but either way, it's slower than SATA-I.

What everybody is missing here is that *IN THE REAL WORLD*, even modern SATA-III capable spinning disk hard drives will very rarely exceed the speed capabilities of even SATA-I. Yes, they'll benchmark better. Sure, Native Command Queueing helps a bit. But in practical, real world terms, the only time that you as the user will notice is if you're copying huge files onto and off of the drive to and from a device which can deliver appreciably higher throughput than SATA-I.

In my professional life as a network infrastructure, virtualization, and storage consultant, I work with high-performance fiber channel and iSCSI shared storage systems on a daily basis, including Nimble Storage arrays which use SSDs tuned to a frankly ridiculous level of performance for caching. I get to play with 10gbit networks frequently. I have worked with HP LeftHand SANs scaled out for more IOPS rather than simply capacity. I have played with IBM DS4x00 SANs running on 4-8GB/s fiber with multiple expansion trays and tons of 15,000rpm spindles. Everything in my world is multi-pathed for both high availability and performance. I have seen high-throughput devices, and I can identify bottlenecks.

Let's go back to the perspective of the overwhelming majority of laptop users, and look at some of the things one might find oneself copying large amounts of data to and from:

First of all, I have yet to see any external USB2.0 hard drive can saturate SATA-I speeds. USB3.0, sure, but our T61s don't have USB3.0.
Anything in the UltraBay or a T61 won't saturate SATA-I.
Nothing copied over a wireless network will come close to saturating SATA-I, even 802.11n

Some high-performance FIREWIRE external drives can give great throughput, especially 1394b (that's Firewire 800). If you have a eSATA ExpressCard, that could definitely do it. PCMCIA, no way. Copying off a desktop computer with high performance hard drive over the wired Gigabit LAN connection, or a network file server--those things could do it.

Now, the big wrench in the works and why we care about unlocking SATA-II is SSDs. Modern SSDs support SATA-III but can run on a SATA-I or SATA-II interface as the spec is backwards compatible. If you install a SATA-II or SATA-III SSD in your T61/T61p, you will DEFINITELY want to install Middleton's BIOS. Then if you also want to have massive storage capacity in your laptop, buy a big slow 2.5" SATA drive, throw it in the ultrabay, and enjoy. Again, no BIOS trickery can help the PATA interface of the ultrabay in this generation of ThinkPad.

Hopefully this has been educational...

Jeff .... Thank you very much and welcome to the forum.

You've answered all my questions, and then some.

I'm looking foward to getting my first SSD drive for my main HDD bay and especially glad to hear that it may actually speed up large file transfers to/from my two external drives presently connected via a removable eSATA express54 card now in one of my T61p's side slots ..... I already can see the eSATA drives transferring data faster than USB 2.0 connected external HDDs to/from my traditional platter HDD in the main bay.

It will now be especially interesting to see how much a new main SSD (even w/o HDD the Middleton BIOS) will speed things up between the eSATA external HDDs on large file transfers.

Thanks eecon, glad to be here!

Would be interesting to know what sort of hard drives are inside your external cases... something high capacity/density and 7200rpm could certainly get things moving.

I'm sure many would be interested to see the difference in performance copying things off of and onto your eSATA drives before and after the Middleton BIOS.

Bests,
--jeff

I currently use a fairly new 2.5" Seagate Momentus 500GB FDE 7200RPM SATA I/II in the main bay w/o any BIOS hack. I'm only using about 50GB for the OS and program files. My OS is a fully updated WinXP Pro SP3 (per my personal preference for it over Vista and Win7 which I've extensively used and tested on other machines).

I plan to clone the 500GB Seagate Momentus onto a 128GB SSD SATA I/II/III w/FDE using Acronis True Image (including the original Hidden Lenovo Recovery Service Partition) and place the SSD in the main bay. Then remove my optical drive and replace it with the Seagate 500GB FDE as a logical drive for data storage .... this will eliminate the need for one of my eSATA external HDDs.

Most of my large file data transfers will be from the platter HDD in the ultrabay via the eSATA adapter to/from the external HDD so I really won't benefit here from a BIOS hack .... However, I may see some improvement when the SSD is working with a hacked BIOS but them again it may only minimal between SATA I and SATA II in my particular operating scenario (with faster boot-ups, snappier windows application, etc .... but not any faster large file transfers beween the 500GB platter drive and the external HDD).

My most important benefit will hopefully be a reduction from internal heat generation by using an SSD and a platter HDD rather than two internal platter HDDs .... I've tried that and the T61p gets significantly warmer. My leap of here faith is that SSDs operate cooler than platter HDDs .... I hope I'm right about that part.

If you go the SSD way, you will be better off using Windows 7, which supports TRIM. XP does not.

Yes, unfortunately but I should still see faster boot-up times at the very least even w/o TRIM.

eecon -- you will benefit from Middleton's BIOS even if all you're doing with the SSD in the main bay is booting up and launching apps in XP.