Just got a T61 8892-02U T7500 sxga! What to upgrade in 2012?

[Delmarco]

I have been totally out of touch with the tech scene since I got my T60 back in the late spring of 2009.

Although my T60 was 100% issue and drama free, working like perfection, everyday since I unboxed her it was time for an upgrade.

I went out last week to buy the recent Thinkpad offerings. Sadly, the new T5x0 notebooks all come with widescreen aspect which is something I cannot use as a writer that needs to see word documents in 4:3 aspect.

Eventually I picked up a barely used T61 with the 4:3 SXGA screen in factory stock configuration and condition.

Today I did a lot of research online and here at the forums but I still have four quick questions below about things I want to upgrade on my T61:

Any advice or information will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

1- Memory - What is the highest I can go? I read some folks put 8 GBs of RAM but will it operate on all 8? is 4 GB sufficient?

2- Operating System - My T61 comes with Windows XP/SP3 which I don't mind at all but is it worth it to upgrade to windows 7 on this older 2007 model year T61? Will it be seemless and trouble free on the T61's meager 128 MB of NVIDIA Quadro NVS 140M video ram?

3 - Hard Drive - Already shopping around for a cheaply priced Intel 520 Series SSD but they are way pricey. Are the cheaper brand SSD drives worth it? I want at least 120 GB but would like to spend less than $170. I would spend $200 for a 256 or 180 GB SSD drive if it came to that.

Also if I just get a normal HD then what is the best performing drive in the ballpark of 500GB/7200rpm that I can get in April 2012?

4- Surprises I should expect - I read thru a lot of threads today on the T61 but many seem to be about the later model widescreen T61 notebooks. Were they any notable issues or any bugs that resulted in necessary modifications or software updates on the early T61 4:3 aspect models?

[ajkula66]

Personally, I'd stay away from major upgrades and spending too much money on any T61 with discrete graphics that was built prior to August of 2008 - which includes yours - because of the whole nVidia debacle.

If you're intent on running a 32-bit OS, anything above 4GB is a waste. W7 runs well on these units, and might be worth looking into. All of these machines should be able to take 8GB of RAM, the only question here is whether you really need that much.

Unless you want to go to W7, SSD might not be worth it, at least IMO.

Flashing the BIOS with the Middleton's modded one that enables full SATA II (3.0) speeds would be my first course of action.

Happy upgrading.

[JeffCullen]

George pretty much nailed everything. If the machine works fine for you as is, use it and enjoy it!

My T61p is the opposite end of the spectrum -- 64-bit Windows 7, 8GB of RAM (yes it works, but only if you're running 64-bit...), SSD, all the toys.

8GB of memory for these older DDR2 machines isn't cheap, is hard to find, and of very questionable value to most users. 4GB is plenty.

W7 is certainly *seamless* (gotta jab you if you're a writer using "seemless" :P) on these machines as long as you have 4GB of ram and a relatively modern hard drive.

I have had lots of positive experience with Western Digital's Scorpio Black drives in these and other machines. However, Seagate's Momentus XT "hybrid" drive which has a small SSD cache on it is probably the way to go at this point. It's worth noting that, out of the box, these machines support only SATA-I, and with Middleton's BIOS, SATA-II... the Intel 520 is a SATA-III drive -- it'll work but is like putting premium fuel in your Camry -- no point.

You have the same potential problems with the NVidia graphics chip as any of us with T61s build before ~August '08... as George notes, not a great system to put money into...

If I were you, I'd upgrade the hard drive to a Momentus XT, install Middleton's BIOS to unlock the SATA-II capability, and call it a day... unless you have performance problems with the machine.

[robert213]

Another "Yes" vote for 32-bit Windows 7 Pro (or Ultimate) on T61...
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=101643

-- Edit --
Clarification

My machine currently has 2 GB of RAM. Therefore, I installed 32-bit Win 7.

However, I purchased retail box of Win 7 Ultimate with license for both 32 and 64-bit versions.

In the future, when I upgrade to 8 GB of RAM. I will uninstall my 32-bit and install my 64-bit version of Windows 7.

[JeffCullen]

32-bit Windows 7 has the same RAM limitations as 32-bit Windows XP, which is really 3-3.25GB

[Delmarco]

32-bit Windows 7 has the same RAM limitations as 32-bit Windows XP, which is really 3-3.25GB

That is what one of the T61 manual says. That 3GB is the max ram on the T6x series.

However, the Lenovo's PSREF says 4GB is the max ram with very a confusing contradictory fine print in the footnote.


1GB std / 4GB max* / PC2-5300 667MHz DDR2, non-parity,
dual-channel capable, two 200-pin SO-DIMM sockets;

* Maximum memory capacity may
require the replacement of standard
component with largest supported component
available. On ThinkPad systems
with an Intel 945GM, 945PM, GM965, or
PM965 chipset, even though it is possible
to physically install 4GB of memory,
the actual amount of memory addressable
by an operating system will be limited
to 3GB. This limitation does not exist
with the Intel GM965 and PM965 with
the 64-bit operating systems Windows
XP Professional 64-bit and Windows Vista
64-bit Editions.

[ajkula66]

When T61 was released, the largest DIMM available was 2GB, hence the 4GB limit from Lenovo's website.

Reality is that the platform supports 8GB, and numerous users have taken advantage of it.

It goes without saying that only a 64-bit OS can utilize 8GB.

[Delmarco]

I'm a noob so sorry for asking when I ask what would be the perfect 64-bit OS set up on the T61?

I currently have WinXP Pro on the T61 so by upgrading to a 64-bit OS I can benefit from having 8MB of ram installed?

When T61 was released, the largest DIMM available was 2GB, hence the 4GB limit from Lenovo's website.

Reality is that the platform supports 8GB, and numerous users have taken advantage of it.

It goes without saying that only a 64-bit OS can utilize 8GB.

[JeffCullen]

That is what one of the T61 manual says. That 3GB is the max ram on the T6x series.

Certainly confusing. Allow me to clarify based on my direct experience (can provide screen shots to prove...) with T60 and T61 Thinkpads.

The T60 can not support more than 3GB of RAM in ANY situation, 32 or 64-bit. That's a limitation of the "Napa"/945 chipset. You can install 4GB of RAM in these machines, and the BIOS will claim to "see" it all, but only the first 3GB will be addressable/usable by the operating system. Some argue that it makes sense to do this as you get synchronous double-pumping by having two identical modules which does increase speed somewhat... The chipset limitation here makes running a 64-bit OS largely moot, though the 945 chipset does support the Core 2 CPU which has the appropriate x86-64 extensions which would allow running a 64-bit OS.

As George notes, this information is out of date. The "Santa Rosa"/965 chipset which the T61 uses absolutely can address 8GB of ram. This is how I have my T61p configured. 64-bit Windows certainly does see, address, and use all 8GB of ram. I have 32-bit XP on another hard drive which I use for games, and it only sees 3GB.

I'm a noob so sorry for asking when I ask what would be the perfect 64-bit OS set up on the T61?

4GB is *absolutely fine* for the vast majority of purposes. I've found 64-bit W7 to be more stable than 32-bit, generally speaking, so I'd say 64-bit and 4GB of ram is "perfect" for the vast majority of people performing the vast majority of tasks on a T61.

I currently have WinXP Pro on the T61 so by upgrading to a 64-bit OS I can benefit from having 8MB of ram installed?

Sure--but unless you are doing things which really need more than 4GB of RAM, you're just flushing money down the toilet. 4GB DDR2 sticks aren't exactly cheap... Check out task manager and monitor your RAM utilization. OTOH if you're the sort of person who likes to drive your Lamborghini Murcielago to 7-Eleven to pick up a Kit Kat bar or to go through the McDonalds drive through, 8GB of RAM to do word processing, web browsing, and movie-watching/music listening is DEFINITELY the configuration for you!

My T61p leads a dual life--I have 64-bit W7 on a SSD, which absolutely smokes and allows me to do have a million things open at once across dual displays and have virtual machines flying and everything is great. Then I have 32-bit Windows XP on a 320GB 7200rpm Western Digital Scorpio Black hard drive, which I use for occasional gaming. This only sees 3GB. I often end up doing light web browsing in XP and there is pretty much no difference compared to the W7/SSD setup.

For someone who likes 4:3 screens, your money is best blown on a T60/T61 hybrid wherein a T61 motherboard is installed in a 15" T60 chassis so you can use the fantastic 1400x1050 or 1600x1200 FlexView IPS displays. Such a configuration (ideally with Intel, not NVidia graphics, to avoid the whole "flaky NVidia chip" issue) is unquestionably the ULTIMATE 4:3 machine.

If you have 4GB of RAM now, and are set on pouring money into this T61, consider finding a T9300 "Penryn" processor -- these do make things a little zipper, as well as running cooler than their older Merom counterparts. Battery life is also improved. These drop in and run fine on early T61s using Middleton's BIOS.

[Delmarco]

Wow. So much info.
Thanks Jeff!

So basically I should keep my old T60 and install the T61 motherboard and then mod out the T60 with a hybrid SSD drive set up?

I can't believe the only advantage the T61 seems to have over the T60 is the motherboard.

For someone who likes 4:3 screens, your money is best blown on a T60/T61 hybrid wherein a T61 motherboard is installed in a 15" T60 chassis so you can use the fantastic 1400x1050 or 1600x1200 FlexView IPS displays. Such a configuration (ideally with Intel, not NVidia graphics, to avoid the whole "flaky NVidia chip" issue) is unquestionably the ULTIMATE 4:3 machine.

[Delmarco]

Jeff is this a Momentus XT safe bet?

Seagate Momentus XT ST95005620AS 500GB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache 2.5" SATA 3.0Gb/s with NCQ Solid State Hybrid Drive -Bare Drive

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Seagate-Momentu ... 2ebce2a125

If I were you, I'd upgrade the hard drive to a Momentus XT, install Middleton's BIOS to unlock the SATA-II capability, and call it a day... unless you have performance problems with the machine.

[JeffCullen]

Wow. So much info.
Thanks Jeff!

So basically I should keep my old T60 and install the T61 motherboard and then mod out the T60 with a hybrid SSD drive set up?

I can't believe the only advantage the T61 seems to have over the T60 is the motherboard.

My pleasure! Glad it's helpful.

If your old T60 has a 15" screen with a 1400x1050 (SXGA+) or 1600x1200 (UXGA) screen, compared to the 14" SXGA+ screen in your T61, then such a "frankenpad" would be SWEET.
EDIT: I just looked up 2008-VEP and it would seem to be a 14" screen, so there's no point in doing such a swap.

Jeff is this a Momentus XT safe bet?

I wouldn't buy a refurb'd one off of fleaBay, but that's the model you want. A very sensible upgrade. Newegg has this on for $120 right now, with free shipping. Again, I should say I have not personally used one of these Hybrid drives, but they've been very favourably reviewed, and I have a friend who has plenty of SSD experience with one of these Momentus XT drives in one of his laptops and he loves it.

You'll definitely want to install Middleton's BIOS to take full advantage of that hard drive. Let your fingers do the Googling...

[Delmarco]

No my T60 and T61 both have the 14.1" sxga 1400x1050 / 4:3 aspect screen. I never got the 15 but I think Lenovo still makes the 15 4:3 aspect screens.

[JeffCullen]

I think Lenovo still makes the 15 4:3 aspect screens.

We all wish they still made them... everything is 16:9 now.

I see from your signature you had your eyes set on an Intel 520 480GB SSD -- a fantastic piece of kit, but largely wasted on a T61... these really start to make sense in only the newest machines. The Intel 320 SSD makes more sense in a T61. A SSD would certainly be faster than the Momentus XT and would help battery life a *little bit*, as well as reducing noise... but when you get into SSDs that size, the price/performance ratio is completely out of whack when compared to the hybrid drive, especially considering the age of the target machine.

[Delmarco]

Jeff you are AWESOME!

You answered two of my questions perfectly!

So to Recap:

1. Stick to 4GB rams (but If I get 8GBs I can still upgrade the OS to Win7 which is 64 bits to make use of all 8GB).

2. Due to the high cost of the Intel SSD I'd rather just get the Seagate Momentus XT 500GB 7200 2.5" ST95005620AS Solid State Hybrid Hard Drive for $120 at Newegg and install that with the middleton bios mod to get very good performance.

3. What about the OS? Should I keep the current WinXP Pro OS and partition out a bit of space for 64bits Win7 OS?

How did you set up one OS on an SSD and the other on a normal HD? Would Win7 work fine on the Seagate at SATA 2 speeds under 128 MB of video ram?

[JeffCullen]

1. Stick to 4GB rams (but If I get 8GBs I can still upgrade the OS to Win7 which is 64 bits to make use of all 8GB).

4GB is fine, even for 64-bit W7. Don't bother buying the RAM before doing the OS upgrade, as 32-bit XP can't use it. Only buy the RAM if you find yourself experiencing slowdowns *after* you've done the W7 64-bit upgrade. Do consider any older peripherals you use which may not have 64-bit drivers... When I got my T61p, it had 4GB of ram and a 320GB 7200rpm Western Digital Scorpio Black hard drive. I installed 64-bit W7, and really, the machine was awesome until I started throwing *heavy* workloads at it.

2. Due to the high cost of the Intel SSD I'd rather just get the Seagate Momentus XT 500GB 7200 2.5" ST95005620AS Solid State Hybrid Hard Drive for $120 at Newegg and install that with the middleton bios mod to get very good performance.

That hybrid should knock your socks off, and at $120 is very sensible.

3. What about the OS? Should I keep the current WinXP Pro OS and partition out a bit of space for 64bits Win7 OS?

Up to you... I'd go one or the other, though.

How did you set up one OS on an SSD and the other on a normal HD?

I *physically swap* the drives every time. I have a spare drive sled to make this somewhat less painful.

Would Win7 work fine on the Seagate at SATA 2 speeds under 128 MB of video ram?

Absolutely.

[TuuS]

Without reading the entire thread, I'll add that there is a lot of contradictory info about ram limitations on 32bit windows versions. Actually the 4gb limit is easy to work around and microsoft does make 32bit versions that support much more ram. Windows XP 32bit was released as Windows server 2003 (datacenter edition) that supports 64gb of ram, Vista and Seven were also release in 32bit versions of windows server that support even more ram.

This is done by using Physical Address Extension. End user versions of 32bit windows contain the code, but it's been disabled by microsoft. It is possible to hack your windows kernel to enable it, but doing so won't produce a stable operating system and will violate your licence, and break your product activation... but it has been done.

Obviously the best option is to just get a 64bit windows version, even the home premium supports far more ram then the laptop supports (16gb I think) and the profession/ultimate/enterprise versions support 192gb I think.

As far as upgrading this T61, I'd say go for it. You do have the potential for a nVidia failure, but every laptop has the potential to fail. If it does fail, you can replace another nvidia board, or substitute an Intel board in it's place.

[JeffCullen]

Without reading the entire thread, I'll add that there is a lot of contradictory info about ram limitations on 32bit windows versions. Actually the 4gb limit is easy to work around and microsoft does make 32bit versions that support much more ram. Windows XP 32bit was released as Windows server 2003 (datacenter edition) that supports 64gb of ram, Vista and Seven were also release in 32bit versions of windows server that support even more ram.

This is done by using Physical Address Extension. End user versions of 32bit windows contain the code, but it's been disabled by microsoft. It is possible to hack your windows kernel to enable it, but doing so won't produce a stable operating system and will violate your licence, and break your product activation... but it has been done.

Obviously the best option is to just get a 64bit windows version, even the home premium supports far more ram then the laptop supports (16gb I think) and the profession/ultimate/enterprise versions support 192gb I think.

As far as upgrading this T61, I'd say go for it. You do have the potential for a nVidia failure, but every laptop has the potential to fail. If it does fail, you can replace another nvidia board, or substitute an Intel board in it's place.

2003 Enterprise supports >4GB as well (most I ever had in a 2k3 32-bit box was 32gb...) but I certainly wouldn't want to run Server 2003 on my laptop and would be remiss to recommend it to any kind of remotely "normal" person...

[TuuS]

I certainly wouldn't want to run Server 2003 on my laptop and would be remiss to recommend it to any kind of remotely "normal" person...

I'm definitely not normal lol and I do have 03 datacenter installed on my T61 lol

I needed it for testing some software to see how apps react to 32bit with greater then 4gb, so it was just for testing, but there are good guides for tweaking windows server to run like a workstation, making it virtually identical to winXP.

Anyway, the point was that it's not a restriction for all 32bit operating systems, it's only a restriction for the retail ones that are sold to end-users.

[JeffCullen]

;)

In any case, 64-bit is clearly the future. We've got most of our customers off of 2003 and onto 2008R2, with a few 64-bit 2008s mixed in, mostly on VMware with shared storage :D

[Delmarco]

There are two things I want to replace on my recently acquired T61.

1. The bottom shell: The hard drive's bay cover is loose because the ledge where the cover screw holds onto has cracked completely off. That bit seems to be contiguous with the entire plastic bottom shell so I assumed I have to replace the entire thing.

How hard is it to replace just the bottom shell?


2. The lid cover: As always the situation with used Thinkpads the lid tops usually look the worse for wear even when everything else is looks new. I just need to change the lid cover. Is this easy or it is wiser to change the entire lid cover with screen components and guts?


So far I have plenty of experience changing T6x's keyboards and palm rests and the T61 sxga manual for FRU replacement instructions makes the lid and base seem super easy but really how easy is it?

I just want to know if it is even worth it.

As is, I can live with the loose battery cover and worn lid but if it is safe and relatively risk free I want to make it my own.

[Backslashnl1]

How hard is it to replace just the bottom shell?

It is not hard, it is just a lot of work. You will have to disassembly the laptop completely to replace the bottom shell. I've replaced my motherboard (twice) which is almost the same amount of work. To disassembly and reassembly the laptop took me 4 hours of work.

2. The lid cover: As always the situation with used Thinkpads the lid tops usually look the worse for wear even when everything else is looks new. I just need to change the lid cover. Is this easy or it is wiser to change the entire lid cover with screen components and guts?

Easier? Definitely... but also more expensive

So far I have plenty of experience changing T6x's keyboards and palm rests and the T61 sxga manual for FRU replacement instructions makes the lid and base seem super easy but really how easy is it?

Just as easy as the palm rest, but just a lot more of work.

I just want to know if it is even worth it.

That's up to you. If you're annoyed by the current state I think it is worth it.

2. Due to the high cost of the Intel SSD I'd rather just get the Seagate Momentus XT 500GB 7200 2.5" ST95005620AS Solid State Hybrid Hard Drive for $120 at Newegg and install that with the middleton bios mod to get very good performance.

That hybrid should knock your socks off, and at $120 is very sensible.

I dare to disagree. A SSD will knock your socks off, but not this harddrive on steroids. Unless you need this much space I suggest you to upgrade to a 'real' SSD. A good alternative to the Intel 320 series is the Crucial M4, which gives you good reliability and performance for a good price. Grab the M4 128 GB version for $160 or the 64GB version for $81.

For me, 64GB is more than enough. I've installed Win7 x64 and have more than 40GB free space.

[Megavvolt]

I have 8 gigs on my WinXP SP3 and I don't at all think my RAM is wasted.

Running Intel 320 SSD and FancyCache (free stufff so far - a trial of 180 days that can be prolonged). The program allows to use the so-called "unmanageable RAM" as a disk cache. Allocated 5 gigs of "invisible memory" as disk cache - everything works very smooth and very fassst...

T61.

[sktn77a]

Do consider any older peripherals you use which may not have 64-bit drivers....

This can actually be a significant issue. I bought the retail version of Win 7 (contains both the 32bit and 64bit DVDs) and eventually uninstalled the 64 bit in favor of the 32 bit for this reason. Quite a lot of older software that I use won't run on a 64bit OS either.

[Delmarco]

I have 8 gigs on my WinXP SP3 and I don't at all think my RAM is wasted.

Running Intel 320 SSD and FancyCache (free stufff so far - a trial of 180 days that can be prolonged). The program allows to use the so-called "unmanageable RAM" as a disk cache. Allocated 5 gigs of "invisible memory" as disk cache - everything works very smooth and very fassst...

T61.

Do you have 32 or 64 bits?

I believe that would the most crucial difference that allows you to use more than 3.25 GB of RAM on the T61

[Raceboy]

Windows Server 2003 32bit version also allows to use 8GB RAM. Even though XP also supports PAE, it doesnät work in reality. In Server 2003 32bit though it does. And since Server 2003 is a sibling with XP, 99% of software designed for XP works with it.

[dr_st]

All of Microsoft's 32bit operating systems from XP forward support PAE and can address more than 4GB of RAM. But in every home OS since XP SP2 this code has been disabled by a hidden 'licensing' parameter in the registry. Patched (hacked) kernels for Vista and Win7 exist lifting this limitation, but haven't seen anything like this for XP SP2. In any case it's easier and safer to just install a 64bit OS, or maybe the server version.

[RealBlackStuff]

Some interesting RAM tidbit here: http://www.geoffchappell.com/notes/wind ... memory.htm

[Raceboy]

All of Microsoft's 32bit operating systems from XP forward support PAE and can address more than 4GB of RAM. But in every home OS since XP SP2 this code has been disabled by a hidden 'licensing' parameter in the registry. Patched (hacked) kernels for Vista and Win7 exist lifting this limitation, but haven't seen anything like this for XP SP2. In any case it's easier and safer to just install a 64bit OS, or maybe the server version.

Yes, it supports it and it is possible to enable it but it just won't work as you said. But if you definitely need 32bit XP compatibility, you can as well use 2003 Server.