Buying used t61P, t500 or something else - for this task?

[Heliotropen]

Hey all.
I hope you guys can help me out here!

I'm in a rather irritating/pleasing(after how you look at it) situation here. - I love thinkpads, have had quite a few of them(it's all I can use), but this situation caught me by suprice

First of all I have a x60s running ubuntu 12.04 which I use, and absolutly love for writing texts, surfing, reading, bringing on the run and so on ... (It's running 3 gb of ram, and instead of jumping onto the x220s, - I expect that I will throw a SDD in it if it needs to be upgraded sonner or later, though I had an offer for a x220s that was almost as cheep as such a drive) - but that is not really what this thread is about. (but you are welcome to tell me, if you think I should shift the x60s for the x220s, also).

I need another - "new"/used machine to supplement the x60s mainly as a workhorse for webdesign, photoshopping, perhaps a bit of video editing(not movies but occasionally webpage/information-products/youtube quality) - I'm not really a computer gamer, I play a bit of CS-s and Jagged alliance 3d a few times a year lol, - so if I can throw out my stationary pc, and plug this baby into a dock and play those too, than that would be nice also (I don't expect it to out perform the stationary, or do as well ... but if it can do just a little gaming, a few times a year, for a non gamer, that would be a nice bonus).

Now I have used a t43(14" 4:3) for this task for the last few weeks - I made the mistake of trading my t42P for it, and the dude ripped me off, selling it as a P model, where I ended up with a [censored] resolution, so that is really the reason why I need a new baby. (will consider buying my next in a store I know that sells used machines here in Denmark for the same reason).

My economy is not as strong as it could be right now, I so I want to buy a used machine(thinkpads is the only things that works for me) ...
So again I really hope you guys can help me out.

First of all I have a bit of trouble deciding the screen size, I have never had a 15" thinkpad between my hands, - none the less, I guess that since I have my thrusty x60s 12" for reading and writing, and portability, - a 15" wide screen is the way to go for me? - I can imagine having 2 windows next by each others while making web programming etc(if it's a faulty fantasy I don't know?)... Again I want the best experience working on it, and it don't have to be ultra portable, - but a way to blocky machine I can be without, - it has to be portable, just not ultra portable...

Now I'm planing on buying from a dealer that deals used machines here in Denmark, that gives me a warenty, and it's written the machines are in good conditon.

Now obviously my first contender is a:
- T500 with a high resolution:1680 x 1050, on the HD3650, 2,4ghz, 4gb ram: that one will cost me 3.699 dkr (around 655.45 USD - I know I live in a [censored] country) xP
- T500 - the same machine but with the: X4500HD, lower resolution, and 2,2 ghz will cost me around 3000 dkr(531.45 USD)

That is my thoughts so far, but then I have to get a dock beside that, - I can do it, but it's pushing my budget quite a bit.

Then there is the joker, - I can get a:
- T61P with the: Quadro FX 570M, 15.4" (1680x1050), 4 GB ram, 2ghz, - for 2.695,00(477.42 USD), - that is almost 1/3 of my first choice ... Also reams seams cheaper for this kind of an animal? so I can upgrade it to 8 gb rather cheep, where with the others I would stay with 4gb.

The thing is, - how much time can I expect to be back in such a machine vs. the others?(it's written that it's in good condition, all of them are, and all of the machines is used machines obivously), how well will it be able to do the things I want from it? How big difference will there be between the 3?

Sadly the w5000 will cost me around 4000dkkr(708.60 USD), and it's hard to find here ... so that will properly not be an option, unless it's really worth the extra?

I can also get a Z61T(which seams really nice, and the price is fine, but it only have: 1.66 ghz, 14.1" WXGA+, 1440X900, 945GM Express ... it goes for 2.295,00 (406.56 USD), - so the price is perfect, - and unlike the other machines it should be like totally new, where the others is in good shape.

My own thoughts just is that the Z61T is to much like a middle thing between my x60s, and the t500/t61p, - and hence not really powerfull enough for the mentioned task, and perhaps not ideal either in size and so on, for webdesigning, and so on? ...

It will properly be running ubuntu for work tasks dual booting with windows 7, for entertainment.

Really hope you guys will chime in here ... I have to decide rather fast, since this t43 [censored] is killing mere here!
- Helio

[Thinkwise]

For your size concerns, see this picture: http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/18348.jpg (15.4" T60 [same size as T61p/T500] vs 14" T43)

The Z61t has great specs and screen resolution. It is also a fantastic model and much lighter weight than the other options. However, it has a fairly weak graphics chipset, and the processor, while more than adequate for most tasks, is obviously behind the other machines.

Avoid the T61p. Unless the production date is 08/08 (August 2008) or later, you run a high risk of failure. Also, the case durability (specifically, hinges) is not the best compared to, say, T60 models. The LCD panel is also a toss up, with several possibles but only one really good option.

The T500 with Intel Graphics Only + Lower Screen Res could be a good option, but what is the screen resoltion exactly? 1440x900 would still be acceptable, but for your uses, 1280x800 would be undesirable. Otherwise, CPU power is there, and with Intel Graphics, you will have lower heat and power requirements, usually translating to longer life, while producing sufficient power for most tasks. This will, however, put a damper on most games, though I'm not sure that'll be a problem for you.

The T500 with HD3650 + 1680x1050 is your best bet. The resolution is fantastic, and it's a shame that the move to 16:9 destroyed the harmony. Also, this generation has switchable graphics, so you can move between the ATI and Intel graphics chipsets for better power consumption and resource optimization. While it may cost more than the other options, this would be the best bet going forward.

No matter which machine you go with, give it a thorough inspection, and ask for the model and serial numbers to do detailed parts lookups. This will allow you to see exactly which LCD screen, etc., is in the unit.

Check parts here: http://www-947.ibm.com/support/entry/portal/parts

And finally, tossing an SSD in any unit is a wise move and will yield one of the biggest speed increases in day-to-day use. Recommended are Intel (320/520) and Samsung (830) SSDs.

[Heliotropen]

Hey - thank you so much man! I really appreciates this!

1. You just saved my life: t61p dumped! that was a biggy, because I was really, REALLY considering that one! - The dealer made the offer seam so nice (hmm my x60s runs amazingly, and I gave my mother an t40P that even still runs great, talk about an oldie, - why does the t61p not last longer? is the graphic-card pushed to much, or? - should I fear for my x60s?)

1.x I can also get an ordinary T61@1440x900, with an Intel GMA X3100, 2ghz, 2gb-ram(cheep to upgrade) even cheaper actually 1.995,00 dkr (353.41 USD) - that would really be a cheep deal: but I take it that have the same problems as the t61p then? And that it will not be powerfull enough? ... it's a shame, because it's half the price almost of the t500.

2. Wow that's really a different in size, on those pics ... hmm I was actually thinking/hoping on something "wider", and less tall, for the mentioned tasks(like the shape of the z61t, just bigger perhaps), if not I can just as well go for a 14"? - I was thinking it would be smart when making web design and so, if I could have 2 windows next to each other ... but as said, I'm not sure it's the best idea, because I have always insisted on 4:3 before, because I also had to use the machine for reading, and so on, - but now I have my x60s for that.

3. As for the Z61t, - I'm not really sure how weak it is: I know my x60s lacks power for my work tasks besides writing right now(I have not bought the ssd drive yet, which I take it makes it worse - but I don't really think the screen is big enough for work, besides writing either)... so I take it the Z61t would too? or how much more powerfull than the x60s is it? how much more powerfull than the t43? ... And I take it the display will not fell that much bigger than on my 12" x60s ? wider though(perhaps it would be fine - but I'm not really sure)...

4. Yes the one I was thinking about was 1280x800, - so you are properly right the one a bit more powerful is a better deal for me.

5. For the SSD thnx, I'm really considering it for the x60s in the first place, - the work machine will have to wait I think, unless I can find them really cheap, - perhaps next month, or the next ... to speed it up (it has a really slow disk but I love the machine - just ordered 2gb extra to it today(so it will be running 3gb), and I bought a new battery 3 months ago)

The cheapest descent size I have found in denmark, is a Verbatim Solid State Disk 128 GB, it runs at 824 dkr here(145.97 USD), and I don't know if it fits in the x60s, 60 gb would be fine for me, since I always have my NAS-server, and usb hd, - but those is almost as expensive also, an OCZ Octane 2 Series Solid State Disk 64 GB is 510 kr 90.35 USD... Perhaps if I could buy two for both machines abrod and get it shipped to denmark cheap I could think about it sooner

6. Battery will properly not be the biggest issue, since I'm using the x60s as my portable machine ... of cause it would be nice if it in an emergency could last a train ride for an hour or two, or be used at a presentation for a few hours... but as long as it can be moved around my apartment, it's not the main issue. (I'm still mad that ubuntu 12.04 zaps it quicker than win7, but I just refuse to work on windows).

7. Is there any other Thinkpad's you think would be better/cheaper for my tasks here?
I'm willing to dump the "gaming twice a year" thing if I have to: as long as it's perfect for my tasks with webdesigning and webcoding, photoshopping, info-product developing, and the video editing(not for movies but the other stuff).

Thnx again man.
- Helio

[Thinkwise]

1) T61p has heat issues because of the NVIDIA FX 570M. The NVIDIA NVS 140M present on T61 models and R61 models is also affected by the same problem which is related to a design flaw that manifests after repeated heating/cooling cycles. The fixes are expensive and becoming moreso as time passes. A search on this forum and the official Lenovo forums will reveal a heap of posts and threads about this issue.

1.x) The T61 with Intel GMA X3100 is not affected by the aforementioned. The issue is with the NVIDIA chip, and as this model does not have the chip, it has no such heating issues. While the X3100 would be more powerful than the 950 on the Z61t, it is still weaker than more recent generations, such as the T500. However, this would be a solid option as 1440x900 is a very comfortable resolution for most people, and the T61 motherboard would allow greater SATA speeds as well as higher memory max. An attractive option might be the following: snag this T61 with X3100 and spend the money saved on a dock + nice external monitor. Overall, if money is a concern and you need portability, this T61 may be your best bet. If you need more power, size, and screen real estate, obviously the T500 has that.

2) The T500 15.4" is definitely a larger machine. If your primary focus is width, you would then be looking at a T510/520 (or W series) which are newer and feature 16:9 aspect ratio, which is not as tall and deep as a 16:10 T500. That said, 15.4" with 1680x1050 is a sweet spot which will definitely allow side by side windows while maintaining a respectable vertical resolution. It's really fantastic. In 16:9, the equivalent resolution is 1600x900, an obvious decrease on both ends.

3) The Z61t is not a weak machine, and if it has a Core 2 Duo CPU, it can handle the x64 options and have a bit more speed. However, the Intel 950 chipset is not very powerful. And again, moving forward into the future, this would be the most dated machine. The display would feel bigger than your X60s no doubt, but only you can say if it's worth it. Power depends on specific use many times, and it may be worthwhile looking at all of the specifications and looking up speeds, benchmarks, etc., to do side-by-side comparisons.

4) Avoid the 1280x800 T500 unless you've used a 15.4" with such a low resolution previously and are comfortable with it. It's not a bad machine, but for what you want to do, a larger screen resolution would be worthwhile, especially if you're talking about a 15.4" machine.

5) Again, I would stick with Intel & Samsung SSDs. They cost more up front, but the durability and reliability exceeds competitors. I would stay away from OCZ SSDs.

6) Battery life varies widely. However, the T500 units will get the most battery life. This is an area in which improvements have been made over generations, with a few exceptions. Something to be aware of with the Z61t is that the batteries for that unit are exclusive to Z series and increasingly difficult to locate. Finding parts for T series machines is much easier.

7) I think you have a good selection. If you're looking at 16:9 units for widescreen, you could check Lenovo's Outlet Store. Also, check the Marketplace section on these forums for any machines that may be available now.

[rumbero]

why does the t61p not last longer? is the graphic-card pushed to much, or?

Please see the following thread for some deeper information: forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=93357. It contains all information regarding the nVIDIA GPU issue, which is BTW not limited to Lenovo Thinkpads, but affected all manufacturers using these GPU's during the very same time frame.

1.x I can also get an ordinary T61@1440x900, with an Intel GMA X3100, 2ghz, 2gb-ram(cheep to upgrade) even cheaper actually 1.995,00 dkr (353.41 USD) - that would really be a cheep deal:

No, in the end it would tun out to be expensive and with less bang for the buck. While a T61 might come cheap, be aware that an upgrade to 2x4=8GB of DDR2 RAM will definitely be very expensive. Unlike DDR3 RAM for more recent machines produced after the T61, DDR2 RAM costs significantly more money, and any possible savings made by purchasing a cheap T61 would simply become void. Unless you really want 4:3 SXGA+ (or one of these fabulous T61+ Frankenpads equipped with an UXGA Flexview display), a T500 with WSXGA+ (1680x1050) is definitely the preferable choice. Thanks to the cheap DDR3 RAM used since this Thinkpad generation, the price considering all expenses after upgrading to 2x4=8GB RAM should be much more economic than buying such a T61 plus the DDR2 RAM upgrade.

Personally, i only own and use T61 Thinkpads, and if screen resolution, display quality, and form factor (14.1"/4:3 T61 mainboard in a 15"/4:3 T60 casing with UXGA Flexview display) wouldn't be so decisive for my daily computing needs, i probably wouldn't bother about them anymore either, and just switch to a T500 myself.

[Heliotropen]

Both Wow thnx guys, - and lol - I really appreciate the help, but now I'm getting even more confused

I almost deiced on the t61 due to what Thinkwise wrote, and how cheep an offer it is - but now I'm really considering dumping that idea then - though I'm also still a bit drawn to it, - and see if I can get the t500 pressed into my budget, - the t61 is still half price of the t500, so it IS really really cheep on the get go ... And I'm not sure if I really need the upgrade? - I just ordered 2048 MB SO-DDR2667 MHz CL5 Crucial at 201dkk- 221,67 DKK with shipping, for the x60s, the other day that I'm still waiting on ... that is 39.15 USD so upping the t61 machine to 4 gb of ram from 2gb will cost the same(I doubt I will need more?) - so it's a very cheep machine comparing it to the t500 vs. t61 at both 4gb.

To my suprice I can see as you say, the ddr 3, for the t500 is cheaper - I can get 4gb of Crucial for 186dkk - 32.95 USD including shipping... so 4gb is actual cheaper than 2 gb ddr2...

- The question is, how powerfull a machine I really need for my tasks? How power full is the t500 vs. the t61? it's a bit hard for me to actually speculate on the difference here, except that my x60s is way to slow for this tasks right now(of cause it will be faster with the 3gb memmory, it only have 1gb right now, and allot faster if I ever afford the SSD to it).

- I already have a monitor, but I placed it at my mother's place, and don't expect to use it again, - I like working on the thinkpad screens - so that is what I expect to do for work(I have two desks wide apart, and none of them is really suitable for an external monitor, - but I would love to dock it to my 43"plasma tv, if I play the occasionally game. (I already have a playonhd, and an android phone with a belking Bluetooth thingy to my receiver, that the Bluetooth on the laptop can tap into also, - so it's not because using it as media center has that big a priority). The mentioned work is what I buy it for, the other thing is a bonus.

- BUT as suggested here, I might see the plus of the t500 for dumping my noisy stationary(sounds like a jet taking off), it's not some wild beast, but and old 8800 card with 4gb ram, that I right now only play games on 1 hour once a month, or a few times a year on any way.. Replacing it with a dock to my normal machine, will be a much more niceer option for me, regarding noise, space, design and so on ... But I don't think the t61 will be able to play cs source, or jagged alliance 3d (the games I kind of play) even though I only use a rather low resolution on the plasma when doing this anyways(not hdmi) (for my need I'm more than fine with that) ... so perhaps it can?

- I don't rally want 4:3 SXGA+ at least I don't think I want that, - why do I think like this so far? - I'm the first to say, that I can hardly live without a laptop with 4:3 for writing, and reading, - but I can do that on my x60s just fine! And I have this idea that working with two windows beside each other, for my other tasks, will be rather smart? (can be wrong, since I have never worked that way before, and usually use either two monitors/two laptops, or the virtual desktops in ubuunt for that) ... it's just that right now I can see that the t43 with the [censored] display is not getting used, and I'm getting frustrated actually working on this tasks on my x60s, so that is the motive for getting an extra machine, and giving my sister the t43.

The 14.1" WIDE TFT at 1440x900, with the Mobile Intel GM965 Express(I still have no idea how slow this baby is) sounds interesting - I imagine something a bit like what I imagined with the z machine, for my tasks ... but perhaps the t500 is still a better option, even for this.
How much a difference will I fell from working on the x60s, and the 14" 14.1" WIDE TFT at 1440x900?

I would really love some actual feedback on the 4:3 vs. my speculations here? (I have only had 4:3 thinkpads - 5 of them, all oldies now...) - so will I hate or love the wider ones, as I speculate here?


- I guess we can kill the idea of the Z61t, being able to do my tasks? I have of course dumped the idea of the t61P completely, and I now understand why the used store thingy, made such a wild offer all the sudently, when the other used stores here have them at twice that price.

EDIT: If I was to descide that the 500 something was the way for me to go... would it be worth looking at the w500 them? how much more would it be worth than the t500, I just found a used Lenovo W500 (4063), 2,8 GHz, (not in a store though) for 4000ddk (708.60 USD), or if it's already sold there is another for 4300ddk (761.74 USD), I guess if I have to spend 3.699(655.45 USD) on the t500 them it's not that big a jump money wise (though I could properly get either the rams, or port replicator for that money) - don't know if it's a much better machine than the t500? EDIT EDIT: the one to 4000 dk, is with a mini dock.

- As for the Outlet Store (which I don't know what is), a used machines from abroad, or ebay, then it's properly not an option: I'm Danish, so I use a danish keybord, I can use a nordic one, but an English one don't really fly for me I would miss Æ and Ø, when writing in danish xD

Again, I really appreciate this... So far you have saved me for the t61p, that I would have bought otherwise... My head is spinning here, - if it was not because budget do play a role for me right now, I would allready have ordered the t500, the dock and the memmory, - but if I have to I can start with the t500, then order the rest, little by little ... but it will still be about twice as much ...
- Helio

[rumbero]

- The question is, how powerfull a machine I really need for my tasks? How power full is the t500 vs. the t61?

It depends on which T61 you refer to. There is a broad range of different T61 configurations, and personally i wouldn't want to bother with any T61 which doesn't have at least a fast Penryn CPU with lots of cache, and also a screen height of at least 1050 pixels, regardless whether the form factor is 4:3 or 16:10. I just wouldn't want to live with any inferior vertical screen resolution, like it is the standard nowadays. In my day job i use a Thinkpad X220 supplied by my employer, and while the performance is very good, i absolutely dislike the rather awkward vertical screen height of just 800 pixels. Personally, i would never spend a single penny for such an unbalanced abdomination.

In any case, a last generation T61 with a T9300 CPU and 2x2=4GB of RAM is a pretty decent configuration in comparison to a T500 of about the same time range. For me, to switch to a more modern machine than the T61 i use, a T500 would be only a negligible marginal improvement performance wise, but the again they are probably the last chance for a decent vertical screen resolution for a Thinkpad.

I would really love some actual feedback on the 4:3 vs. my speculations here? (I have only had 4:3 thinkpads - 5 of them, all oldies now...) - so will I hate or love the wider ones, as I speculate here?

Unless the vertical screen resolution is still 1050, i wouldn't mind a 16:10 form factor. For a wide screen machine, this was probably the best available screen option during its time. I worked some time with a WSXGA+ equipped T61 and didn't really see any disadvantage with it, as the vertical display resolution didn't leave anything to desire. And as the machine never left the desk anyway, i also had no complaints about the added bulk of the 16:10 chassis.

Personally, i prefer 4:3 SXGA+ *only* because i consider this form factor the best compromise between screen real estate and portability, and simply because i still can. Nonetheless, i'd rather prefer any widescreen model with a vertical resolution of 900 pixels over any 4:3 XGA display with just a crappy 768 pixel vertical resolution. But the main point for me to stay with my T61+ is the fact that it is the last possibility to use the IMHO best display resolution ever UXGA (vertical resolution of 1200 pixels) with the wonderful IPS/Flexview goodnes when combining a T61 mainboard with a T60 chassis. But this is custom build and was never available from Lenovo as a purchaseable Thinkpad option.

Just go for a T500 with WSXGA+ and 4GB RAM, this will be the better choice for you in the long run, even if it appears to be more expensive. But since a T500 has some real technical advantages over a T61 (DDR3 RAM instead of DDR2, much better battery run time, much cooler running CPU options, SATA II by default, also on the Ultrabay, dual graphics), in the long run it will be the more economic choice. The Germans have a saying: "If you buy cheap, you buy twice". So in the end, any seemingly cheaper buy will become more expensive in the long run.

[rumbero]

EDIT: If I was to descide that the 500 something was the way for me to go... would it be worth looking at the w500 them?

A W500 is essentially the same as a T500, but with a higher powered GPU and an additional WUXGA screen option. Unless you do need these additional enhancements, it wouldn't be really worth to bother, IMHO. Especially considering the price difference.

As for the Outlet Store (which I don't know what is), a used machines from abroad, or ebay, then it's properly not an option: I'm Danish, so I use a danish keybord, I can use a nordic one, but an English one don't really fly for me I would miss Æ and Ø, when writing in danish xD

The keyboard is actually one of the easiest parts to swap, and that can be easily done by yourself. Since Denmark is neighboring to Germany, you might want to have a closer at the offerings of www.lapstore.de and www.ok2.de.

And if you also happen to have a decent commandment of the German language, you might want to have a closer look at www.thinkpad-forum.de.

[Heliotropen]

The t61 is the one I mentioned: T61-7659, Intel GMA X3100, 14.1" WIDE TFT, 1440x900, Intel Core 2 Duo T7300 / 2 GHz, 2gb ram.

I just got an offer for a w500 a minute ago, with a dock included, that is exatly at cheap as the t500 without the dock ... (will have to negotiate shipping with her, that is included in the other offer, but still).

Should I go for the w500 instead of the t500 or t61 if I can negotiate shipping? It's a W500 4063, 4gb ram, Intel Core 2 Duo T9600 2,8ghz, 200 gb hd. + a dock.

Is there any downside of chosing the w500, instead of the t500.<

Again, I'm really glad for all this help My german is a bit rusty.
- Helio

[rumbero]

Is there any downside of chosing the w500, instead of the t500.

All Thinkpad generations have been and are produced in very different configurations. So there is no "T500" or "W500", but lots of variations of these with sometimes rather questionable hardware combinations. Unless you don't exactly know the correct Product ID of a given Thinkpad, there is no chance to really compare and make an informed decision.

See my posting forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=672136#p672136 in the other thread you opened in order to subdivide and spread your issues all over the forum instead of keeping it all together in a single thread.

If the seller is expecting a quick answer without giving the buyer a chance to properly inform himself, than something could be wrong with the offer. I'd be very careful not to give the wrong answer too early, in order to not falsely accuse the seller afterwards to have been ripping you off. Thousands of T500 and W500 were produced, and none of them is really special enough to risk a false buy.

[Heliotropen]

Yes you are right..

Would it be fine to use this thread for the considered alternatives? like a t500 And the other for the quick deal descission with the w500?
I'm sry for opening 2 threads but was kind of panicking, because on the site, I could see a dude had given her an offer 50 minutes before I contacted her (I basically searched down the used t500 and w500's in denmark - have found several t500's, but only 2 w500, and the one is way too expensive).

The women has not answered me back(I'm sure she would have given me the ID, but has properly just sold it to the other dude) ... another person answered me back tough, and I know have an offer for the t500 for 3000

- Helio

[rumbero]

Would it be fine to use this thread for the considered alternatives? like a t500 And the other for the quick deal descission with the w500?

I will ignore the other thread from now on. Keeping the complete discussion here should considerably simplify any further communication.

... but was kind of panicking, because ...

There is no reason to panic, as no T500 or W500 is worth losing control over the whole situation. Thinkpads come and go in a steady flow, nothing to get too excited about.

It is 23h now in Barcelona, and I'd suggest to turn off the computer and go for a short evening walk before finally going to sleep. In fact, this is what i am going to do now. I prefer to have slept well before going to work tomorrow.

[Heliotropen]

Yes you are right - sry ....
The other thread was created in stress, - I'm now on top, and appogize for it.

The w500 started with 4063 and ended with CA3, and it has the 1920x1200, but also an 2,8ghz, Intel Core 2 Duo T9600 - it will cost me 3700-3800 DDK(655.45 USD), there is shipping and a dock included in that price.

The other choice (I just got the offer) is a t500 15" 1680x1050, 2,4 ghz, 4gb (but can first get the ID tommorow on it), - but that one will cost me 3000 DDK(531.45 USD) (perhaps included shipping, but properly not), and there is no dock in the price here...

That is the best deals I can get here in denmark. It's trough a used selling system, but not a real used dealer, like the t500 at 3700DDK I was first considering.

Hmm the panic is a mater of things: 1) I need the machine fast, have tons of work to do, and doing it all on my x60s is killing me here. 2) it is a rather big deal for me, I have just finished my philosophy study, and my economy is not that great right now 3) I'm not sure I'm up for the international shopping, with shipment - the keyboard thing and so on ... and there is not that many w500's here in denmark, i have only seen two the days I have been looking ... there is a few t500's though...

- Helio