Thinkpads Forum

It was mentioned in my other thread that the gfx chips of the T61s, produced before before August 2008 are poorly manufactured and are very likely or rather almost certain to die off at some point. Since I suppose replacing the mainboard is very complicated and expensive I would like to know if it would be best to send the T61 back. I am allowed to do so within two weeks after it arrived.

I paid around 277$ (220€) for it. I am in Germany and hardware in general is relatively expensive here but I am sure I still paid too much for it. I like it so far a lot, it is quite compact and working with it in Win 7 32 goes smoothly so far. Connecting to the internet at Statbucks works without problems. I just mention that because I never did that and I like to be able to go online outside my house. It's just still a novelty for me.

I don't want it to die on me before I can at least get my money's worth out of it. It is already used and I do not know the intentions of the seller. So what do you think, should I send the T61 back because of the faulty gfx chip?

Thanks.

TheAnyKey wrote:I don't want it to die on me before I can at least get my money's worth out of it. It is already used and I do not know the intentions of the seller. So what do you think, should I send the T61 back because of the faulty gfx chip?

Yes.

By all means, better safe than sorry. Make full use of their return policy. According to your other post: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=104836 , this is what you bought:

ThinkPad T61 (8889-W4Z):
Based on 8889-CTO: T7300(2GHz), 2GB RAM, 100GB 7200rpm HD, 14.1in 1400x1050 LCD, 128MB nVIDIA Quadro NVS 140M, CDRW/DVD, 802.11n wireless, Bluetooth, Modem, 1Gb Ethernet, UltraNav, Secure chip, 9c Li-Ion, WinVista Business 32

It's a very nice machine with the 14.1" 4:3 standard screen, plus it is SXGA+ (1400x1050) high-resolution, and wireless N.

But...

you gave us this additional (crucial bit of) information: Date code: 07/11 (which is year/month, so November 2007, a very "unsafe date.") And, as you read in various posts on the German site, August 2008, 08/08 is the "safe date". (It sorta rhymes in English: "08/08 is the safe date.") So August 2008 or later is considered "safe" for purchasing a T61 with Nvidia graphics.

Here is some good information from a thread you should read: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=102236

In the order of best to worse... the best choice would be a T61p 08/08 or newer with Penryn chip, second would be a T61 with 08/08 nVidia NVS140m and Penryn. Behind that would be the same with Merom chips, as long as the date is 08/08 or newer. If you can't get one of these, then best bet is to go with Intel graphics.

As far as the improved nVidia chip goes, there is credible evidence the factories were first retooled to make them as far back as febuary 2008, but they kept the updates quiet and if they did start making them back then, it was a slow switch over and they most likely made both designs simultaneously, having the same exact numbers on the chip. This is also consistant with the fact that we see far less failed chips from the 08/03 to 08/07 era, and virtually none after 08/08, because Lenovo replaced all the boards from their manufacturing in July 2008.

I do agree if you keep the chip from overheating, and avoid a lot of unneeded heat/cool cycling, your chip will most likely last many years, even if it's the older design. None of the manufacturers publish data on failure rates, but what I have heard (unofficially) from sources inside Lenovo is that the total number of failures even today are less then 1%. As far as dollars and sense goes, this problem is very minor compared to harddrives, hinges, ram, etc... but to the person who switches their machine on and it suddenly does nothing at all... well, it doesn't seem so minor, and the fact that Lenovo wants $575 for a board doesn't help matters.

So it's your decision, but as you said in your other thread:

So what would you suggest. Should I send the T61 back? It is an onboard gfx chip, so as you said, I'd need a new mainboard eventually, which is presumably hard and expensive to acquire and probably impossible to install for a layman.

I think you will soon get a lot of responses saying you should return it. And in your case, that may be the wisest decision.

Now, some people will strongly disagree with me for saying this, but this next part is just my personal opinion. And I am entitled to have and voice my personal opinion in a free world. So whoever disagrees, feel free to voice your counter-opinions. Just do it in a proper and respectful way

Want to know what I would personally do? I would just keep it- except for the fact that, in my case, I am an expert buyer and can find it cheaper, or build my own from choice components. Really, it's a great laptop, and with the rare 4:3 format screen, and SXGA+, and wireless N. If I had such a NVIDIA-based laptop, I would immediately clean and lubricate the fan, and refresh the thermal paste. Maybe even put in a Brand New fan and just save the current fan for use in another laptop, (if it's a good fan). Then I would install "TPFancontrol" software to monitor the temperature: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=18067 I would keep the chip from overheating and avoid unnecessary heating/cooling cycles. I don't do any gaming on my laptops, so that's a big help. I don't think a grown man with a life should be gaming on his laptop anyway LOL. If you really want to play games, do that on your desktop or another laptop better equipped for gaming. Or get outside and play real games: intense full court basketball, volleyball, badminton, soccer and racing the kids at your school like I do (I am a teacher .)

Now that's just my personal opinion of what I would do if I had that laptop. I have acquired a great deal of knowledge about Thinkpads and have opened up and disassembled/reassembled most models by now. I have at least 5 T61's lying around in my house at this moment, and am an expert buyer with multiple sources of parts for these, so my situation is different from yours. As you mentioned, you are a university student and will be carrying this laptop back and forth to school and want to have peace of mind that you have invested in something that shall serve you reliably for several years, so...

MAKE A WISE DECISION

In my case, I wouldn't panic. I know others will probably answer this thread soon and disagree with me, but after reading and researching thoroughly I just don't happen to think the Nvidia chip is a time bomb which will definitely explode. I know some say, it's not a matter of "if," just a matter of "when." I just don't happen to feel that way. It's a serious issue, yes, but I feel that preventive measures can be taken, and we must keep things in perspective. It's not like every NVIDIA pre 08/08 board has failed, it's still a relatively small percentage of the total number of boards manufactured. Most are still going strong. For example, your "time bomb NVIDIA gfx laptop" was manufactured in 2007 and as of November of this year (if it makes it...) that laptop will celebrate its 5th birthday and, obviously, it's still going strong... But you don't know how much use or ab-use it has endured, or if someone did a lot of gaming on it in the past.

So in your case, since this seems to be the only laptop you're depending on, and since university life (on a student, and his laptop) can be very demanding, and since you don't have a lot of technical skills to fix it, or cannot afford "down time" should it fail, then I advise you return it and get an Intel-based unit or NVIDIA-based unit manufactured 8/08 or later. Or just skip the T61's altogether and check out an x61 Tablet- smaller, lighter, ultraportable, convertible between laptop and tablet modes, good battery life, solid as a rock, great for a university student. Plus you may be able to find one for not much more than you paid for that T61. Or get an x60 Tablet, which is less expensive.

Daniel,
the little YP/teacher in NYC.
"The Best Teacher is a Lifelong Student"

I agree, I would keep it, too.

My R61 is also affected by Nvidia chip issue, but I don't much care about it - It didn't fail until now, so I have no evidences that it possibly can fail in future.

Even if it do so, my plan is simple - I will just bake it and sell cheap

I would also add to the statement that far from all pre 08/08 Nvidia boards fail. One of my pre T61p is a mid 07 and is used extensively over the years. While in my possession it has run very hot, and since 3 years back it has surpassed to a friend of mine who also has used it every day. Half a year ago, I had to open it up and clean up the fan because it was so clothed with dust so the machine force shut down due to excessive temp which also makes the audio stutter alot. But the Graphics just keep on working so far.

Also, I dont think it will be an easy find to locate another 4:3 1400x1050 in good condition manufactured post 08/08.

Rose wrote:
Also, I dont think it will be an easy find to locate another 4:3 1400x1050 in good condition manufactured post 08/08.

Most likely impossible. I have yet to see a 4:3 T61 with a similar date code...

Rose wrote:Also, I dont think it will be an easy find to locate another 4:3 1400x1050 in good condition manufactured post 08/08.

This holds true for nVIDIA based T61, but there are quite a few Intel graphics based T61 with SXGA+ floating around in Germany. I sent the thread creator a private mail with a hint for a T61 8895-WFJ which is on sale elsewhere.

rumbero wrote: "Rose"Also, I dont think it will be an easy find to locate another 4:3 1400x1050 in good condition manufactured post 08/08."End Quote"
This holds true for nVIDIA based T61, but there are quite a few Intel graphics based T61 with SXGA+ floating around in Germany. I sent the thread creator a private mail with a hint for a T61 8895-WFJ which is on sale elsewhere.

Thank you but there are already a lot of folks stating their intention to buy it, so it is most likely already sold.

I would like to see what it looks like inside re cleaning ot dust and maybe renewing the thermal past on the heat sink and maybe even putting a ~120gb SSD in. I don't think once the gfx fails my data will be lost, or is there a chance the storage drive dies along?

No your data will be save if the graphic card dies

TheAnyKey wrote:Thank you but there are already a lot of folks stating their intention to buy it, so it is most likely already sold.

One of those was myself, but i finally didn't. And as long as it is not marked as sold, it usually is available. Just ask the seller.

TheAnyKey wrote:I don't think once the gfx fails my data will be lost, or is there a chance the storage drive dies along?

As mentioned, GPU (potentially) failing and hard drive failing are 2 separate issues. But it's a good idea to back up your hard drive data on a regular basis. In the event anything goes wrong, not just GPU-related, you'll be glad you did

What could go wrong? Oh, your hard drive could suddenly crash, you could get a virus, the laptop could be stolen or fly out of your hands while in the car of your (adventurous) friend, who wants to go 120 mph on the German autobahn LOL

You don't want to lose data, including data you may need for school.

Daniel.

Thinkpad Lover wrote: ...
Well actually he quoted someone:

I do agree if you keep the chip from overheating, and avoid a lot of unneeded heat/cool cycling, your chip will most likely last many years, even if it's the older design. None of the manufacturers publish data on failure rates, but what I have heard (unofficially) from sources inside Lenovo is that the total number of failures even today are less then 1%. As far as dollars and sense goes, this problem is very minor compared to harddrives, hinges, ram, etc... but to the person who switches their machine on and it suddenly does nothing at all... well, it doesn't seem so minor, and the fact that Lenovo wants $575 for a board doesn't help matters.
...

I wonder what that 1% actually means; 1% of what? I've seen other figures from 0.01% which IIRC comes from nVIDIA to the often accepted claim that sooner or later they will all fail. I don't think anyone really knows what the failure rate is. Once the warranty period is over a lot of folk will just bin the machine and get another. At the least though it is worryingly high.

Back to OP's question. If you just want a reliable Thinkpad and can find another one easily, I'd recommend sending it back. If you particularly like the one you have and can't easily find an alternative them maybe it's worth keeping. I would have a plan ready if and when the card fails; perhaps swapping in a non-nVIDIA motherboard if that's feasible.

Well actually he quoted someone:

Yes I did, and that Forum Member may choose to elaborate on this point... I've "said my piece" and will "hold my peace" for now...

perhaps swapping in a non-nVIDIA motherboard if that's feasible.

If time permits, make a quick read of the whole thread and cross-referenced threads. The OP has limited technical abilities in this regard. As for sending it back, I advised him that in his case, that may be the best thing to do. But if he decides to keep it, the first thing he needs to do is clean out that fan, give it a fresh lubrication and a fresh application of Arctic Silver 5 thermal compound between the CPU and heatsink. OP also needs to take some time and master some basic techniques for properly putting a machine to sleep, and more carefully using it on the go. You may read his latest thread here, where he's dealing with a "minor" incident because he did not shut his machine down properly: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=104872

A happy July 4th to all proud Americans and friends of our nation

Stay safe and enjoy the Fireworks!

Daniel.