Fan noise (also: fan 42W2460 vs 42W2462?)

[hunger]

I've been trying for the last couple of months to try to reduce fan noise on my T61. It's a 7662-CTO, 14" widescreen, with an Nvidia GPU. I'm running Fedora 17.

The fan noise I'm experiencing is, from what I've read, fairly typical for several Thinkpad models (and perhaps, particularly Thinkpad laptops with Nvidia GPUs): the fan is off by default, but comes on periodically, sometimes as often as once a minute, for roughly five seconds. The noise isn't awful, but it is definitely noticeable.

I've tried the following:

• Cleaned the fan and put in new thermal grease
• Tried a software manager -- specifically tpfanco (this is based on the now-abandond ThinkPad Fan Control)

The thermal grease seems to have taken most readings down several degrees centigrade on average.

The software manager has helped, but I haven't found a setting that minimizes the noise as much as I like. Interestingly, my fan doesn't seem to have a Level 1. When I set Level 1 as a trigger in my software manager, /proc/acpi/ibm/fan shows Level 0, while when I set Level 2 in my software manager, /proc/acpi/ibm/fan shows Level 1, and so forth. Not sure if that's normal, or if it's a bug in the software manager I'm using or a problem with my fan ...

... which brings me to my last thought for the moment. Lenovo's site seems to suggest that the default Toshiba fan for 7662 T61s is 42W2462. However, my T61 actually has a 42W2460 fan. That's not entirely surprising, since I know for a fact that the seller I purchased the laptop from replaced the fan. It makes me wonder though: is the 42W2462 really interchangeable with the 42W2462? I've found two threads (1) (2) which suggest that the fans are theoretically interchangeable. Still, I wonder: is it possible that the 42W2460 runs differently on 7662 T61s than the 42W2462 does?

Any thoughts on any of the above, or suggestions on things to look at, et cetera, would be greatly appreciated. Much appreciation to anybody who has read this far as well. I acknowledge that after a certain point -- unless I say, install the TPFC hardware mod -- some amount of noise is going to be unavoidable. So, I recognize that a lot of my complaining/wondering is silly. But of course, I'm certainly not the first or last person to have wondered about ways to reduce fan noise in T60 or T61 laptops! Thanks again!

[hunger]

Regarding the settings on the software manager for my fan: I realized, as I had suspected, that the settings are mislabelled by design.

Still curious whether the 42W2462 and 42W2460 are truly interchangeable. I get speeds roughly between 2700 and 3200 from the 42W2460 on Level 1, which is actually pretty consistent with what is posted on ThinkWiki. That would seem to suggest that the 42W2460 is doing fine, even though Lenovo's site seems to suggest that 7662 T61s should use the 42W2462. So, I'll admit I am probably just worrying too much. Still, any insight or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[TuuS]

Some of the later model 14.1" discrete models had a new fan design similar to the T61p that used 3 heat pipes, this might be what you should get if you don't have it already. I may be able to get you one if you can't find one, but I don't have the part number handy.

I'd also look at your fitting on your GPU platform, the fan coming on at extreme speed for a few seconds usually indicates your temps are getting near the danger zone. These heatsinks need to be properly fitted with good quality thermal paste like arctic silver #5. When properly fitted your gpu will idle several degrees cooler then the cpu. If the platform isn't perfectly flush on the chip, or you have to much/to little thermal paste, the gpu will run hotter. I'd also disassemble the fan and oil the shaft.

I use a T61 with discrete graphics and I can never hear the fan, unless maybe if I turn off everything in the room that makes noise, or put my ear upto the exhaust duct, but if I do something graphic intense I can sometimes get it to kick into the super highspeed mode, but if it'd doing this often, and you have a well fitted heatsink, then perhaps your efforts to suppress the fan are causing the system to overheat.

[hunger]

Hi, thanks so much for the response.

I'd also look at your fitting on your GPU platform, the fan coming on at extreme speed for a few seconds usually indicates your temps are getting near the danger zone. These heatsinks need to be properly fitted with good quality thermal paste like arctic silver #5. When properly fitted your gpu will idle several degrees cooler then the cpu. If the platform isn't perfectly flush on the chip, or you have to much/to little thermal paste, the gpu will run hotter. I'd also disassemble the fan and oil the shaft.

I've replaced the thermal grease on the GPU twice. I'm using Arctic Silver 5. I think I did a reasonably good job. It's possible I was too conservative the first time, but I used a little bit more the second time (several weeks later), while still being conservative. The GPU usually idles 2-5 degrees cooler than the CPU. Both idle around 50+ degrees. I currently have my software manager configured so that the fan spins at Level 1 when the CPU or GPU hit 60 degrees.

I'm going to try upping the hysteresis setting when I get home. That should help with the pulsing.

Another thing to keep in mind is that I'm using the open-source driver, nouveau, rather than the proprietary Nvidia driver. So, my GPU is likely running a little hotter than it could. I plan to try the proprietary driver at some point.

I use a T61 with discrete graphics and I can never hear the fan, unless maybe if I turn off everything in the room that makes noise, or put my ear upto the exhaust duct, but if I do something graphic intense I can sometimes get it to kick into the super highspeed mode

Unfortunately, I can hear my fan even when it's running at Level 1. It's part of the reason why I wonder if maybe the 42W2460 and 42W2462 are not actually interchangeable. It's good to know that there are T61 fans out there that are essentially quiet at Level 1. So, I guess really, my question is: is it unusual for the 42W2460 to be audible at Level 1 on a 7662-CTO? And, what fan design might I try if I decide to get a new fan? Should I try the 42W2462? You mentioned a newer fan design. Is that compatible with my 7662-CTO? And what's the part number?

[TuuS]

I'm sorry but I don't have these part numbers memorized and I don't have one in front of me. I do have a 14.1" widescreen 08/08 unit that has the fan using 3 heatpipes, similar to the T61p. I also just got in a 14.1" 08/04 that has two heatpipes.

Also, can you clarify what you mean by "audible"? it's a fan... it should be audible, but if it's objectionable then I'd say you can hear it from the next room, in which case it's either worn out, or it's running at maximum speed because it thinks your system is in trouble.

I just muted the TV, but I do have a ceiling fan running and I can't hear my T61 fan until my ear gets within a few inches of the exhaust duct. It's running at level 1 according to tpfc, but even if I put it on level 7 it doesn't make objectionable noise, but if the cpu gets into the upper 80s, the fan will run far faster then level 7 for a brief period... this is definitely audible, but it doesn't bother me, it's not an annoying sound, it's just heavy airflow that's necessary to keep my temps under control. If there is clicking or grinding sounds, then it's time to replace the fan.

[hunger]

Also, can you clarify what you mean by "audible"? it's a fan... it should be audible, but if it's objectionable then I'd say you can hear it from the next room, in which case it's either worn out, or it's running at maximum speed because it thinks your system is in trouble

I can hear Level 1 in a fairly quiet room. In fact, I can hear Level 1 from several feet away. The fan doesn't make any grinding noises. So, in other words, there's nothing as far as I know that suggests the fan is damaged or worn out. However, the fan is definitely louder than, say, the fan in my T60.

As I indicated, I'm open to the idea of replacing the fan if you (or anybody else) thinks it might help.

Thanks again for your help!

[hunger]

I'm still hearing noise at the lowest fan setting. I have a side thought though: TuuS, I came across a long thread on the Lenovo forum regarding the nVIDIA Quadro NVS 140M. Clearly, a lot of people have had problems with the chip. I haven't experienced any problems with my GPU myself, knock on wood, but I'm wondering: how common are these failures? I'm pretty terrified. I almost wonder if I should just sell my laptop while it still works. My model number is 7662-CTO. I can PM you the serial number. Any insight/advice you can offer would be super appreciated. Thanks so much for your hard work helping the user community.

[hunger]

I'm still hearing noise at the lowest fan setting. I have a side thought though: TuuS, I came across a long thread on the Lenovo forum regarding the nVIDIA Quadro NVS 140M. Clearly, a lot of people have had problems with the chip. I haven't experienced any problems with my GPU myself, knock on wood, but I'm wondering: how common are these failures? I'm pretty terrified. I almost wonder if I should just sell my laptop while it still works. My model number is 7662-CTO. I can PM you the serial number. Any insight/advice you can offer would be super appreciated. Thanks so much for your hard work helping the user community.

Did some more reading: so, the number to the right of the serial number on the bottom of the laptop is the date... Mine says 08/08, which I believe is necessarily good (yes?). Whew.

[hunger]

Two updates regarding my original question:

Firstly, I did in fact end up buying and installing the 42W2462 (the fan that is recommended for my laptop). It actually runs dramatically quieter than the 42W2460 (the fan that the laptop's prior owner had put in my laptop). Not sure what accounts for that. Was the 42W2460 simply damaged? Find this unlikely given there were no unusual scraping or clicking noises. Or is it (as I suspected) that the 42W2460 really is not compatible with my laptop model?

Secondly, although installing the 42W2462 was a dramatic improvement, bringing my laptop from loud to quiet, I ended up also installing the typfc.mywo.org hardware hack. The hardware hack has been an extremely impressive additional improvement, taking my laptop to near silent operation on Level 1. I highly recommend the hack for anybody frustrated by fan noise!

[RealBlackStuff]

The previous owner had used the 42W2460 fan for integrated (Intel) graphics, instead of the 42W2462 fan for discrete (nVidia) graphics.
Either a cheapskate or stupido...

[TuuS]

Sorry for not replying to your questions immediately, but it's hard to keep up with all threads I comment on. You can PM me if you would like me to review a thread I was involved on in the future.

Yes, your 08/08 system is exempt from the nvidia issues as long as it still has the original board. As for your fan, if someone installed an integrated fan on a discrete laptop, that is a huge problem, as there is no cooling platform for the discrete GPU, so you're likely to overheat your GPU, so good thing you replaced it.

Also to clarify, the definition of audible noise to me means objectionable noise. If I listen carefully I can hear my refrigerator kicking on/off, and my faucet drips every 30 seconds or so, and my laptop fan does have some sounds, as does the hdd and optical drive, but it's only "noise" if it's abnormal. I don't really "get" why anyone would want, or expect a laptop to be silent of any operational sounds, but I definitely don't like abnormal noisy fans, or ones that kick into "turbo" speed unless it's actually needed. I usually always have television, radio or music playing, so I really can't hear my fan at all unless I do something really intense and it runs at full speed.

I'm also glad you got the sound down to an acceptable level, in addition to your other efforts, you might want to put some some tiny dabs of automotive grade RTV silicone gasket sealer on the base of your laptop where the fan motor sits, making sure it's very thin so it won't prevent the fan from seating fully into place, then allow it to set overnight so it won't "glue" the fan into place when installed. This will insulate the vibrations from transmitting to the chassis. The factory uses a thin strip of foam rubber that doesn't do a great job and usually deteriorates in a year or two, where the RTV silicone will last decades. This usually isn't necessary, but if you can prevent direct contact from the fan housing and chassis, you can reduce the noise transmitted.

Just remember to do such mods at your own risk and always follow up by testing the performance of your cooling system after any alteration, no matter how minor.

[hunger]

The previous owner had used the 42W2460 fan for integrated (Intel) graphics, instead of the 42W2462 fan for discrete (nVidia) graphics.
Either a cheapskate or stupido...

Thanks, that's helpful. Hopefully this clears things up for other people who may have been wondering the same thing. Unfortunately as I mentioned in my first post, there are threads out there that suggest the 42W2460 and 42W2462 are interchangeable. I've also seen eBay listings which claim that the parts are interchangeable.

[hunger]

Yes, your 08/08 system is exempt from the nvidia issues as long as it still has the original board.

Whew. Thanks so much for the follow-up.

Also to clarify, the definition of audible noise to me means objectionable noise. If I listen carefully I can hear my refrigerator kicking on/off, and my faucet drips every 30 seconds or so, and my laptop fan does have some sounds, as does the hdd and optical drive, but it's only "noise" if it's abnormal. I don't really "get" why anyone would want, or expect a laptop to be silent of any operational sounds, but I definitely don't like abnormal noisy fans, or ones that kick into "turbo" speed unless it's actually needed. I usually always have television, radio or music playing, so I really can't hear my fan at all unless I do something really intense and it runs at full speed.

Agreed. To clarify, my goal was never to completely eliminate noise from my laptop. I just wanted to address the "abnormal" noise I was experiencing with the old fan. Fortunately I was ultimately able to do that.

Thanks for all the helpful information and advice TuuS. I'll keep the RTV silicone suggestion in my mind. Very interesting.

[TuuS]

Thanks for all the helpful information and advice TuuS. I'll keep the RTV silicone suggestion in my mind. Very interesting.

You're very welcome. As for the RTV silicone, it's really great stuff. The automotive industry has been using it to hold our engines together for decades. It sets at room temp (RTV=room temp volcanizing), and is very soft when it sets so it won't crack or crumble and is very good at insulating. It will however work as an effective "glue", so you have to be careful I've found a VERY tiny couple dabs on the keyboard wills top movement and bounce when typing, but use to much and you'll never get it apart so I don't recommend it to anyone who hasn't used it for something like this, however it's very easy to slice with a razor knife, so if you know what you're doing it will work very nicely. I've also found it can be nice for many uses in a laptop, once set it's completely inert and can withstand extreme temperatures. It can also be used to illiminate the typical plastic squeek when you rest your palms on the laptop.

It comes in many colors, but black is obviously what you want in this case...