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T61p GPU reball/upgrade
T61p GPU reball/upgrade
I have a 4:3 T61p motherboard in a T60 chassis. I just experienced my second GPU failure on this board, followed by my second successful reflow. Reflows don't last forever, and I don't think I've seen it work three times on the same BGA.
I watched a youtube video of the reballing process and am therefore an expert on the subject who will surely succeed on my first try. Err... maybe I'll practice on some random scrap video cards first. Anyway, I'm probably going to have to attempt a reball or replace the board, and these boards are hard to get.
My question is: is the video memory for the QuadroFX 570M on the chip or somewhere else on the motherboard? The widescreen models got twice the memory, and I'd kind of like to have that myself if I can. If the memory is on the chip, are the two versions electrically compatible? Will some other part of the system freak out if I replace it with the larger version? Are even more significant upgrades possible, such as a 770 or 880?
I'm interested in both speculation and fact, and realize that knowledge about this sort of thing may be a bit esoteric. Any information helps.
I watched a youtube video of the reballing process and am therefore an expert on the subject who will surely succeed on my first try. Err... maybe I'll practice on some random scrap video cards first. Anyway, I'm probably going to have to attempt a reball or replace the board, and these boards are hard to get.
My question is: is the video memory for the QuadroFX 570M on the chip or somewhere else on the motherboard? The widescreen models got twice the memory, and I'd kind of like to have that myself if I can. If the memory is on the chip, are the two versions electrically compatible? Will some other part of the system freak out if I replace it with the larger version? Are even more significant upgrades possible, such as a 770 or 880?
I'm interested in both speculation and fact, and realize that knowledge about this sort of thing may be a bit esoteric. Any information helps.
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Re: T61p GPU reball/upgrade
Contact forum member poshgeordie, he's the most knowledgeable when it comes to reballing and T61 GPU chips.
Lovely day for a Guinness! (The Real Black Stuff)
Lenovo: X240, X250, T440p, T480, M900 Tiny.
PS: the old Boardroom website is still available on the Wayback Machine.
Lenovo: X240, X250, T440p, T480, M900 Tiny.
PS: the old Boardroom website is still available on the Wayback Machine.
Re: T61p GPU reball/upgrade
Zak, the reason why your "reflow" is failing is that this procedure would only fix a gpu issue if the problem was the solder connections, but it's not, your problem is internal within the GPU chip itself. The reflows you've been doing haven't fixed anything, but the heat from them has managed to move things around inside your gpu just enough to get some momentary electrical conduction across a micro-fracture in the chip. You can get the same results from heating up the chip, but it's not a fix and even as a temporary solution it's problematic, as the circuit that is effected will have resistence across the contact points leading to heat buildup and ultimate repeat failure. The only solution is to replace the GPU, however new genuine GPU chips aren't sold by nVidia, it's far to costly to make these older chips in small quantities so they are only made for OEM customers like Lenovo when needed to fulfill contractual obligations. To make matters worse there are fake chips coming out of China that are pulled from older boards that have the numbers/dates polished off the chip and new numbers etched on, so there is little or no hope of getting a good replacement GPU.
The only way I will source a board for a 4:3 T61 series is from a complete working laptop. Nearly every seller offering boards is selling reflowed boards that have bad gpu chips on them. The "holy grail" of these boards is a genuine Lenovo warranty board, some of which did get new genuine GPU chips installed. These cost nearly $700 from Lenovo, I have one in my own frankenpad and they are very hard to come by. I currently don't have any with the FX570m chip available, but do have one with nvs140m chip. You may also want to consider an Intel board if you don't need powerful graphics.
However, if you do want a genuine nVidia FX570m GPU chip, I may have one available. It's the 256mb version so you'd have to determine if that will work for you, but it is a genuine chip installed on a lenovo (15.4) warranty board. I'm probably going to use it to fix another 15.4" board, but if it will work on a 14.1 (4:3) board that would be the great solution. As for the memory, I'm not certain, but it looks like the memory is internal, as unlike other GPU chips there are no obvious memory chips added.
The only way I will source a board for a 4:3 T61 series is from a complete working laptop. Nearly every seller offering boards is selling reflowed boards that have bad gpu chips on them. The "holy grail" of these boards is a genuine Lenovo warranty board, some of which did get new genuine GPU chips installed. These cost nearly $700 from Lenovo, I have one in my own frankenpad and they are very hard to come by. I currently don't have any with the FX570m chip available, but do have one with nvs140m chip. You may also want to consider an Intel board if you don't need powerful graphics.
However, if you do want a genuine nVidia FX570m GPU chip, I may have one available. It's the 256mb version so you'd have to determine if that will work for you, but it is a genuine chip installed on a lenovo (15.4) warranty board. I'm probably going to use it to fix another 15.4" board, but if it will work on a 14.1 (4:3) board that would be the great solution. As for the memory, I'm not certain, but it looks like the memory is internal, as unlike other GPU chips there are no obvious memory chips added.
Re: T61p GPU reball/upgrade
the reason your GPU keeps failing is because you let it go too hot again after you've fixed it once. Try to stay below 80 deg C at all times and it should be fine.
the memory is in a separate chip next to the GPU itself.
the memory is in a separate chip next to the GPU itself.
T61: 14.1" 1400x1050, T9500 @ 2.8GHz, 4GB RAM CL4, nVidia 140m @ 600/925 MHz, Samsung 830 256GB, DVD-rec, 5300agn, FP, BT, 6-cell, clean XP Pro
T61: 14.1"w 1280x800, T9500 @ 2.8GHz, 4GB RAM CL4, Intel X3100, Samsung 830 256GB, DVD-rec, 4965agn, 4-cell, clean XP Pro
T61: 14.1"w 1280x800, T9500 @ 2.8GHz, 4GB RAM CL4, Intel X3100, Samsung 830 256GB, DVD-rec, 4965agn, 4-cell, clean XP Pro
Re: T61p GPU reball/upgrade
I've heard about problems with the GPU interconnects from other sources as well. It does seem likely that's the problem. In any case, heating it has worked twice now.
I run a very aggressive fan control script that sets the level to "disengaged" (~5500 rpm) any time the CPU or GPU gets over 65C. Unfortunately, its typical idle temperature is not far under that. It seems to me that thermal stress, vibration and planar flex are all likely to contribute to failures. There's only so much I can do to mitigate these factors and still *use* the laptop.
The QuadroFX 1600M appears to be a newer version of the 570M, with the same core running at a higher clock speed and sometimes more memory. I'm wondering what the probability is one of those would work, and would appreciate any comments from people who have information on the topic rather than just speculation. Of course, it wouldn't surprise me if *nobody* had information, as laptop GPU swaps aren't exactly a common operation.
I run a very aggressive fan control script that sets the level to "disengaged" (~5500 rpm) any time the CPU or GPU gets over 65C. Unfortunately, its typical idle temperature is not far under that. It seems to me that thermal stress, vibration and planar flex are all likely to contribute to failures. There's only so much I can do to mitigate these factors and still *use* the laptop.
The QuadroFX 1600M appears to be a newer version of the 570M, with the same core running at a higher clock speed and sometimes more memory. I'm wondering what the probability is one of those would work, and would appreciate any comments from people who have information on the topic rather than just speculation. Of course, it wouldn't surprise me if *nobody* had information, as laptop GPU swaps aren't exactly a common operation.
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Re: T61p GPU reball/upgrade
Like I said, contact poshgeordie, he has swapped more GPUs than anybody else, and has the proper equipment for it!
Lovely day for a Guinness! (The Real Black Stuff)
Lenovo: X240, X250, T440p, T480, M900 Tiny.
PS: the old Boardroom website is still available on the Wayback Machine.
Lenovo: X240, X250, T440p, T480, M900 Tiny.
PS: the old Boardroom website is still available on the Wayback Machine.
Re: T61p GPU reball/upgrade
how do you get your fan to spin at 5500rpm ??
T61: 14.1" 1400x1050, T9500 @ 2.8GHz, 4GB RAM CL4, nVidia 140m @ 600/925 MHz, Samsung 830 256GB, DVD-rec, 5300agn, FP, BT, 6-cell, clean XP Pro
T61: 14.1"w 1280x800, T9500 @ 2.8GHz, 4GB RAM CL4, Intel X3100, Samsung 830 256GB, DVD-rec, 4965agn, 4-cell, clean XP Pro
T61: 14.1"w 1280x800, T9500 @ 2.8GHz, 4GB RAM CL4, Intel X3100, Samsung 830 256GB, DVD-rec, 4965agn, 4-cell, clean XP Pro
Re: T61p GPU reball/upgrade
tpfancontrol?
240, 380ED, 760C, 760CD, 760E, 760EL, 760LD, 760LD, 760XD, 760XD, A30, E520, G40, I1300, P53, R31, R40, R51, R52, R61, T20, T30, T40, T41, T42, T43, T43P, T60, T61, T400, T410, T420, T430, T460, X1C2, X30, X40, X220, X301 and on, and on, and on...
Re: T61p GPU reball/upgrade
I haven't seen past ~4600 rpm using tpfancontrol
T61: 14.1" 1400x1050, T9500 @ 2.8GHz, 4GB RAM CL4, nVidia 140m @ 600/925 MHz, Samsung 830 256GB, DVD-rec, 5300agn, FP, BT, 6-cell, clean XP Pro
T61: 14.1"w 1280x800, T9500 @ 2.8GHz, 4GB RAM CL4, Intel X3100, Samsung 830 256GB, DVD-rec, 4965agn, 4-cell, clean XP Pro
T61: 14.1"w 1280x800, T9500 @ 2.8GHz, 4GB RAM CL4, Intel X3100, Samsung 830 256GB, DVD-rec, 4965agn, 4-cell, clean XP Pro
Re: T61p GPU reball/upgrade
On Linux, first turn on fan control for the module (e.g. put a line with "thinkpad_acpi fan-control=1" in /etc/modules), then run, as root
To put it back to automatic:
I have a script that checks the temperatures every few seconds and switches the fan accordingly. On auto, it never goes much over 3000 RPM.
I haven't run Windows on a T61, but I got similar speeds with tpfancontrol on a W500. I think the T60p peaks around 4500, but I can't remember for sure.
I'll contact poshgeordie. I just figured it was a little rude to PM somebody about a general question before giving them a chance to stumble across it on their own.
Code: Select all
# echo "level disengaged" > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan
Code: Select all
# echo "level auto" > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan
I haven't run Windows on a T61, but I got similar speeds with tpfancontrol on a W500. I think the T60p peaks around 4500, but I can't remember for sure.
I'll contact poshgeordie. I just figured it was a little rude to PM somebody about a general question before giving them a chance to stumble across it on their own.
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Re: T61p GPU reball/upgrade
Hi Zak
I hope you're OK with me replying to your PM via the thread since what you ask will benefit other members.
TuuS's post is accurate and is how I view the whole Nvidia mess. I'd like to add this link to a series of articles on why these chips fail.
Regarding Chinese fake versions, we used to receive reworked old chips (which got returned!), but often we received what appeared to be new updated version as identified by the different coloured in fill and epoxy around the heatsink core for instance - but when we measured the chip performance post-fitting we found they were generally lower spec'd chips with, as TuuS says, the old numbers ground off and re-etched for the uprated chip.
I do wonder where all these orignal chips came from in the first place, since I can only assume they were Nvidia factory rejects - I honestly don't see how even the Chinese can fake new infill for instance - and there must have been a huge number of these rejects to produce good chips. Maybe I'm too naive here, I don't know.
The next issue is removal of the original chip, since all T61p's I've looked at had strips of clear epoxy around the chip, and I've not found any way of removing this without damaging either the chip or the motherboard.
Heating up chip to soften it doesn't work (unlike the coloured dots on other models), and in the past I've even resorted to very carefully grinding off the chip without damaging the motherboard - definitely dodgy to say nothing of the possibly carcenogenic dust produced!
So if anyone knows how to do this I would be very interested! I've tried everything including chemical dissolving with no luck.
Regarding "reflowing" the chip to get it to work again, TuuS covers this perfectly, just to add that no reflow technique (regardles of how good your equipment) is going to work if the chip cannot "float" properly when the solder balls are in the melted state, if the chip is still "anchored" by coloured dots, clear epoxy etc, and could result in individual solder balls becoming detached. I'm ignoring the internal defective Nvidia chip issue here - just making general comments that apply to any chip in this state.
Next - examining what happens when lead-free solder is reheated, as in you reflowing the chip a couple of times, lead-free solder is strange stuff in that, with some metal mixtures, it will separate out if it's heated up even 5 deg C above the recommended melt temperature. This results in joints which are prone to micro oxidisation and eventual "dry" or open circuit (disconnected) joints.
This is yet another reason why lead-free solder is not fit for purpose since it's almost impossible to use. Also micro oxidisation occurs over time, and seems to happen with changing operating temperatures, and again results in open circuit / disconnected solder balls.
General comment - leaded solder balls should be used when reballing at chip.
Fitting an updated (nVidia FX570m) chip I honestly don't know, but in general if the solder ball patterns are the same I'd give it a go.
Hope that helps!
I hope you're OK with me replying to your PM via the thread since what you ask will benefit other members.
TuuS's post is accurate and is how I view the whole Nvidia mess. I'd like to add this link to a series of articles on why these chips fail.
Regarding Chinese fake versions, we used to receive reworked old chips (which got returned!), but often we received what appeared to be new updated version as identified by the different coloured in fill and epoxy around the heatsink core for instance - but when we measured the chip performance post-fitting we found they were generally lower spec'd chips with, as TuuS says, the old numbers ground off and re-etched for the uprated chip.
I do wonder where all these orignal chips came from in the first place, since I can only assume they were Nvidia factory rejects - I honestly don't see how even the Chinese can fake new infill for instance - and there must have been a huge number of these rejects to produce good chips. Maybe I'm too naive here, I don't know.
The next issue is removal of the original chip, since all T61p's I've looked at had strips of clear epoxy around the chip, and I've not found any way of removing this without damaging either the chip or the motherboard.
Heating up chip to soften it doesn't work (unlike the coloured dots on other models), and in the past I've even resorted to very carefully grinding off the chip without damaging the motherboard - definitely dodgy to say nothing of the possibly carcenogenic dust produced!
So if anyone knows how to do this I would be very interested! I've tried everything including chemical dissolving with no luck.
Regarding "reflowing" the chip to get it to work again, TuuS covers this perfectly, just to add that no reflow technique (regardles of how good your equipment) is going to work if the chip cannot "float" properly when the solder balls are in the melted state, if the chip is still "anchored" by coloured dots, clear epoxy etc, and could result in individual solder balls becoming detached. I'm ignoring the internal defective Nvidia chip issue here - just making general comments that apply to any chip in this state.
Next - examining what happens when lead-free solder is reheated, as in you reflowing the chip a couple of times, lead-free solder is strange stuff in that, with some metal mixtures, it will separate out if it's heated up even 5 deg C above the recommended melt temperature. This results in joints which are prone to micro oxidisation and eventual "dry" or open circuit (disconnected) joints.
This is yet another reason why lead-free solder is not fit for purpose since it's almost impossible to use. Also micro oxidisation occurs over time, and seems to happen with changing operating temperatures, and again results in open circuit / disconnected solder balls.
General comment - leaded solder balls should be used when reballing at chip.
Fitting an updated (nVidia FX570m) chip I honestly don't know, but in general if the solder ball patterns are the same I'd give it a go.
Hope that helps!
Re: T61p GPU reball/upgrade
Thanks for the detailed post. I probably should have gone with an Intel board, but I really like the *idea* of a high-end GPU in a laptop. In practice, they've been nothing but trouble for me. I've had GPU-related failures on a Z61m, a W500 and now a T61p. I suspect my T60p would have failed eventually too if it hadn't been stolen first. That thing ran *hot* with the open-source driver I used after ATI dropped fglrx support for it.
I'm assuming the epoxy is more *under* the chip than around it, as I don't recall seeing it. That sounds quite difficult to remove, though I'm not terribly concerned about damaging the GPU if I'm replacing it. At least I can be sure nobody will try to use or resell it if I grind it up.
I've noticed that less heating than is normally required for a reflow will get this working again, which might be useful information for anyone else who needs to make a temporary repair. Avoiding melting the solder may increase the probability of success.
Your link suggests that the 1600m is also affected, being a G84 core. Having a higher clock speed probably just means it will generate more heat and fail sooner. I've also been told that a different GPU may need different firmware, and it might be quite difficult to obtain and flash. I'm leaning slightly toward not attempting a repair and just trying to get an Intel board. Something makes me think the price for an Nvidia warranty board is sky high, as *all* 4:3 boards seem to be a little pricey.
I'm assuming the epoxy is more *under* the chip than around it, as I don't recall seeing it. That sounds quite difficult to remove, though I'm not terribly concerned about damaging the GPU if I'm replacing it. At least I can be sure nobody will try to use or resell it if I grind it up.
I've noticed that less heating than is normally required for a reflow will get this working again, which might be useful information for anyone else who needs to make a temporary repair. Avoiding melting the solder may increase the probability of success.
Your link suggests that the 1600m is also affected, being a G84 core. Having a higher clock speed probably just means it will generate more heat and fail sooner. I've also been told that a different GPU may need different firmware, and it might be quite difficult to obtain and flash. I'm leaning slightly toward not attempting a repair and just trying to get an Intel board. Something makes me think the price for an Nvidia warranty board is sky high, as *all* 4:3 boards seem to be a little pricey.
Re: T61p GPU reball/upgrade
@all: Something i don´t get or understand: Those fake/relabelled chips from China are faulty Chips (before 08/08) or relabelled "good" Chips w/o internal errors not related to BGA?
Re: T61p GPU reball/upgrade
From what I've been able to determine, the problem with these isn't the BGA at all, but internal interconnects. Heating as if to repair a BGA also temporarily fixes whatever is wrong with the interconnects.
Re: T61p GPU reball/upgrade
my point of view exactly, and regarding to the 08/08 or later date that some keep referring to as a safe betposhgeordie wrote: ...
I'd like to add this link to a series of articles on why these chips fail.
...
T61: 14.1" 1400x1050, T9500 @ 2.8GHz, 4GB RAM CL4, nVidia 140m @ 600/925 MHz, Samsung 830 256GB, DVD-rec, 5300agn, FP, BT, 6-cell, clean XP Pro
T61: 14.1"w 1280x800, T9500 @ 2.8GHz, 4GB RAM CL4, Intel X3100, Samsung 830 256GB, DVD-rec, 4965agn, 4-cell, clean XP Pro
T61: 14.1"w 1280x800, T9500 @ 2.8GHz, 4GB RAM CL4, Intel X3100, Samsung 830 256GB, DVD-rec, 4965agn, 4-cell, clean XP Pro
Re: T61p GPU reball/upgrade
ok sorry maybe my english is not clear...
the chinese fake chips are old ones with the internal interconnection problems or relabelled slow chips without that problems?
the chinese fake chips are old ones with the internal interconnection problems or relabelled slow chips without that problems?
Re: T61p GPU reball/upgrade
I believe the chinese fake chips are sourced from salvaged laptops, but it's also possible they were sourced from the what I'll loosely call the "trash" at a nVidia factory. Either (or both) is a likely assumption, but they definitely aren't "safe" chips to use. If they are pulled from old boards, then it's hit or miss, just like any original chip, many don't fail, but once they do they cannot be fixed. We do know that the chinese have been salvaging and re-labeling chips for decades now, so I see no reason to believe this is anything different except that upto now it hasn't been a major problem. If a chip works, and you can get at least a few years of use from it, then who cares if it was recycled as long as it saves you money, but now that they are recycling unreliable chips and making the look like the newer more reliable ones... well that is a problem.Thrakath wrote:ok sorry maybe my english is not clear...
the chinese fake chips are old ones with the internal interconnection problems or relabelled slow chips without that problems?
Regarding the T61 line specifically, we do know that Lenovo has stated that laptops built in August 2008 and later aren't effected. I'll also add that after following all reports of failures in the last couple years its VERY clear that the vast majority are dated before march of 2008, which is consistent with the timeframe that internal sources had stated nVidia was fixing the problem. We believe nVidia was trying to resolve this quitely and wanted to treat it more like an enforcement of quality control rather then a revision of the chip. If they revised the chip, it would render billions of dollars of inventory worthless, and the cost of shutting down all their factories to update them all at once was also not an option they wanted. The best evidence suggests they updated the production lines one at a time, slowly introducing the new design. This would explain why the failure rates sharply dropped off after febuary 2008.
In July 2008, nVidia removed all boards from production, replacing them with new boards manufactured with a new shipment of chips from nVidia after a rather large financial agreement was made with them. These were first used in laptops in July 2008, but August 2008 is the first month the new chip was used exclusively, and also the last full month of production since the series was replaced in September 2008 (however limited production of special and corporate orders did continue to some extent).
When it comes to 4:3 T61 boards, the 08/08 date doesn't apply because all reports show there were no 4:3 nvidia units built then. For the most part they were discontinued in the first quarter of 2008 and I've only seen a couple that were build after april 2008 and they were all special orders. I was lucky to find an NOS (new old stock) 14" T61p board in a corporate IT dept that was never used. The nVidia chip on it was manufactured in december 2008, so it was obviously a new production board manufactured to service warranty repairs. Later warranty boards are know to sometimes have new GPU chips installed, such chips are built only as needed by nVidia, and only to fulfill contractual obligations so their oem customers can fulfill their warranty obligations. nVidia doesn't sell these chips to third parties so there really is no hope of getting a new genuine gpu, the best we can hope for is to find an original that has never failed, or if we are lucky enough to find a lenovo warranty board. Many people opt for the Intel graphics to avoid these problems, but like many here I believe if I'm going to make a custom built thinkpad and install a lot of high-end parts in it, I'm going to want some powerful graphics behind it, regardless of the risks involved, and the vast majority of nVidia boards made are still in service after well over 5 years, and it's very likely they will continue for many more years to come.
Re: T61p GPU reball/upgrade
Thanks Tuus for the very long and well explaining reply.
In the german Tp-forum there was a poll for Nvidia TP (T61, R61,aso) of this generation and as far as one can interprete without knowing how much they are still running every day, it shows nicely that you might even have a healthy Gpu from 2007 notebooks that were never repaired (upper bar, 55%). Because initially most failures occured in daily use TP after 3-4 years, one may conclude that if you have a TP that can do more than four years (where you are certain that it was running 8h/5d more or less) you are on the safe side.
As thermal expansion seems to be the major player i also know one example of a Dell XPS1300 (G86M, early 2007) where the GPU was always running between 80-100°C due to bad ventilation (!, my dying T61 was always around 55°) that is still working in daily backpack use with a lot of on/off cycles.
All in all i think my only option is to have a replacement board around all the time, because i work on the T61...
In the german Tp-forum there was a poll for Nvidia TP (T61, R61,aso) of this generation and as far as one can interprete without knowing how much they are still running every day, it shows nicely that you might even have a healthy Gpu from 2007 notebooks that were never repaired (upper bar, 55%). Because initially most failures occured in daily use TP after 3-4 years, one may conclude that if you have a TP that can do more than four years (where you are certain that it was running 8h/5d more or less) you are on the safe side.
As thermal expansion seems to be the major player i also know one example of a Dell XPS1300 (G86M, early 2007) where the GPU was always running between 80-100°C due to bad ventilation (!, my dying T61 was always around 55°) that is still working in daily backpack use with a lot of on/off cycles.
All in all i think my only option is to have a replacement board around all the time, because i work on the T61...
Re: T61p GPU reball/upgrade
You're welcome.Thrakath wrote:Thanks Tuus for the very long and well explaining reply.
I agree that a chip that has never failed is likely to continue to work, but I do believe the laptops made from 08/02 to 08/07 are less likely to fail then prior dates, and 08/08 and newer rarely (if ever) fail from gpu issues. I do agree it's a good idea to keep a spare board on-hand in case you need it. If interested, I currently have a genuine Lenovo refurb board that was installed by Lenovo and I also have some original boards that are pulled from complete fully working laptops after extensive testing. I can't promise you they will never fail (no one could), but I do run them through extensive testing before I consider them good, this includes a full seven days running 24/7 while temps are monitored and includes several hours of GPU stress testing. This is key because a reflowed chip will usually show heat spikes when stressed, or fail completely, and if a chip can run at 98-100% load with fan on manual mode and a nice smooth temp graph, then you can be pretty sure the chip is intact. The Lenovo refurb board has probably been tested in other ways during the remanufacturing process, but it was also tested by myself.
Regarding thermal expansion, I don't think the peak temperature reached is really an issue, these chips seem to be able to handle high temps, but the constant change causes the different materials to expand at different rates, this causes friction and over time micro-fractures begin to appear. Eventually one of them will hit a critical area and the chip will fail. Reheating the chips will sometimes push the fracture closed enough to make momentary contact and the chip will appear to work again, but the electrical connection across the fracture will have resistance, and resistance causes heat, so the chip will develop "hot spots" internally and will soon fail again.
If anyone wants to do an experiment, try disconnecting the battery in your car (for safety sake disconnect the ground cable away from the battery), the hold the cable in place (carefully) while someone tries to start the car... the electricity crossing this weak contact point will cause sparks, heat, even melting of the metal in the wire in some cases because there is resistance across the gap. This is what happens inside your failed gpu chip after it's been baked/heatgunned/reflowed. On your car simply bolding the cable back in place will fix the problem, but there is no way to fix a microscopic circuit on one of these chips, they are carved with lasers and trying to repair one would be futile.
The best way to prevent a failure would be to avoid unnecessary heat cycling and keeping a well functioning cooling system. Use of energy saving settings that allow the system to slip into standby are stressful to the compnants, so you're better off letting them run at operating temperatures whenever possible, simply put, if it's on, leave it on... if it's off, leave it off (whenever possible). Mine runs 24/7, but for most people they shut down and reboot many times a day, and if this can be limited to just once, boot in the morning, and shut down at the end of the day... this could greatly extend the life of the components, not only the gpu but all chips.
Re: T61p GPU reball/upgrade
This is such an essential piece of advice that I've been repeating for years now, to anyone willing to listen...TuuS wrote:
The best way to prevent a failure would be to avoid unnecessary heat cycling and keeping a well functioning cooling system. Use of energy saving settings that allow the system to slip into standby are stressful to the compnants, so you're better off letting them run at operating temperatures whenever possible, simply put, if it's on, leave it on... if it's off, leave it off (whenever possible). Mine runs 24/7, but for most people they shut down and reboot many times a day, and if this can be limited to just once, boot in the morning, and shut down at the end of the day... this could greatly extend the life of the components, not only the gpu but all chips.
Hot. Cold. Hot. Cold. Ad nauseam. Hot. Cold. Crack. Ooooops....
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Cheers,
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One FlexView to rule them all: A31p
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Cheers,
George (your grouchy retired FlexView farmer)
One FlexView to rule them all: A31p
Abused daily: T520, X200s
PMs requesting personal tech support will be ignored.
Re: T61p GPU reball/upgrade
I don't think it's that anybody has trouble understanding or accepting the advice that frequently heat-cycling computer components reduces their longevity. The trouble is that people who own folding, battery-powered personal computers usually want to take them places, and it's impractical to do that without heat-cycling their components.
I've encountered people who don't know this because they haven't heard it before, but a certain amount of heat-cycling is inherent to what a laptop is for.
I've encountered people who don't know this because they haven't heard it before, but a certain amount of heat-cycling is inherent to what a laptop is for.
Re: T61p GPU reball/upgrade
Yes, but to an extent. Laptops are only more recently being designed with desktop replacement in mind. Truth be told, they are not traditionally designed to last forever in such a role, whether you believe planned obsolescence plays a part or not.
Now, it's not applicable "on the go", but what about external coolers run off USB (while connected to AC)? I would think it might extend the life of the laptop as well, especially when combined with the use of tpfancontrol, and shutting down when truly unneeded for an extended time. I use one, often in place of a dock, and felt it extended my original T61 fan (which eventually gave up the ghost anyhow, and has since been replaced) and kept general temps low. True, I don't have an NVIDIA GPU on mine, but I would guess it could only be more useful in that situation.
Now, it's not applicable "on the go", but what about external coolers run off USB (while connected to AC)? I would think it might extend the life of the laptop as well, especially when combined with the use of tpfancontrol, and shutting down when truly unneeded for an extended time. I use one, often in place of a dock, and felt it extended my original T61 fan (which eventually gave up the ghost anyhow, and has since been replaced) and kept general temps low. True, I don't have an NVIDIA GPU on mine, but I would guess it could only be more useful in that situation.
240, 380ED, 760C, 760CD, 760E, 760EL, 760LD, 760LD, 760XD, 760XD, A30, E520, G40, I1300, P53, R31, R40, R51, R52, R61, T20, T30, T40, T41, T42, T43, T43P, T60, T61, T400, T410, T420, T430, T460, X1C2, X30, X40, X220, X301 and on, and on, and on...
Re: T61p GPU reball/upgrade
@Zak, that is why I said "whenever possible" in my reply. Obviously if you bought your laptop to carry to work and home with you, you can't leave it on during the trip to/from work, but you can (perhaps) leave it on during lunch, breaks, etc... so you'll have only two heat cycles per day where someone with "standby" enabled could have dozens.
When computers were first becoming popular there was the debate if you should keep them running 24/7 or shut down when not in use. Some thought it was wasteful of electricity to keep them running, but they don't really use that much electric and it definitely shortens the life, but a steady electric flow was required for the "always on" school of thought to be valid. Most people didn't have uninterruptable power source back then so in that respect it was probably best to shut down if not needed, but with laptops the internal battery should protect it from low voltages and the AC power supply should easily absorb any voltage surge short of a lightening strike, so the risk of leaving them on is mitigated.
When computers were first becoming popular there was the debate if you should keep them running 24/7 or shut down when not in use. Some thought it was wasteful of electricity to keep them running, but they don't really use that much electric and it definitely shortens the life, but a steady electric flow was required for the "always on" school of thought to be valid. Most people didn't have uninterruptable power source back then so in that respect it was probably best to shut down if not needed, but with laptops the internal battery should protect it from low voltages and the AC power supply should easily absorb any voltage surge short of a lightening strike, so the risk of leaving them on is mitigated.
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