Dead T61 w/Nvidia 140M? Here's an option. *PICS*

[farmall]

Different approaches work for different people with different parts scrounges/organ donor collections. Therefore, exploring unusual options can help others and make for interesting threads.

T61 parts are so cheap it's often not worth the labor to reflow. I can't be arsed to do it and my oven is ten feet from the desk where I work on PCs. I have a base with an Intel motherboard on the way from Ebay for a mere forty bucks shipped. (Bases go cheaper than motherboards, which require effort by the seller to remove.) Thanks to this forum I kept a Thinkpad Withdrawal Book .pdf open while searching for donors, so no problem sorting them out.

[TonyJZX]

you can buy intel based t61s which are widescreen and will run win7 with middleton for well under $100

the one i got was perfect and just needed a hdd and some ram

think of it as the disposable laptop if the build quality didnt mean it didnt last forever

[farmall]

The 14-inchers do go under $100. That's less common for the 15.4s. Still a good deal as tough as they are!

[TonyJZX]

I just bought another t61... this time i took a bet

instead of a x3100 which i did previously, i took a NVS140 one

typing on it now... it just needed ram and hdd which i had

takes win8 fine

if it bangs, i'm one a few bucks no big deal but as the OP notes, it can go anytime

the 1,400 x 900 screen is gorgeous, worth it just for that

[crashnburn]

Interesting workaround.

[aoitenshi]

I want to buy Galaxy GeForce GT 620 GC 2 GB DDR3 PCI Express 2.0 DVI/VGA Graphics Card from amazon for my 2503 dock, will it worked with the dock?

Or I just buy Galaxy GeForce GT 610 GC 2 GB DDR3 PCI Express 2.0 DVI/HDMI/VGA Graphics Card, since it uses more less power than GT620?

Thank you.

[p.art]

@aoitenshi: I am using Zotac Geforce GT 640 with my Advanced Dock. Works good besides quite loud cooler on the GPU and the RAM limit. I have a T61 (FrankenPad and a regular 14" one) and it won't boot with more than 2 or 3 GB of RAM installed. Don't remember exact limit. I have not yet found any solution for that nor I'm aware of if anyone else has...

[aoitenshi]

p.art,
thanks for the info *thumbs up

at the Lenovo's forum, someone advised me to use GT640, but I think I changed my mind to use Sapphire Radeon HD7750

[TuuS]

Thought I'd post some info on the nVidia chip problem to hopefully clear up some misunderstandings.

When the GPU fails, sometimes you can still use the laptop, sometimes you cannot, but it's never fully functional even if using an external graphics card. If it works at all it's only because the nVidia chip hasn't failed completely. It is possible that it may not fail completely since only the very basic functions are being used, but if you have a hard (complete) gpu failure I don't think you have a chance of getting the machine to boot up no matter what type of monitor and/or external card you use.

Baking and Reflowing

This will sometimes get your system running, but it won't fix anything. When the GPU fails, microfractures in the processor cause vital circuits to stop conducting electricity. Think of how a lightbulb fails, if it's a clear bulb you can look in and see the broken filiment and in some cases you can tap on it and manage to get the broken pieces to touch and the bulb will light again and may even work for a while, until it gets bumped again, or the spot where the new contact is made begins to heat up and burns out. When you have a circuit that is completed by only light contact like this it causes resistance and resistance=heat, and heat is deadly to anything electrical. When you bake your board it's not necessary to get it hot enough to melt the solder, the only reason the heat appears to fix the problem is it causes the materials in the chip to expand and forces the two parts of the fractured circuit to touch, and when it touches you have a complete circuit, but one with higher resistance due to poor contact.

This is not a repair, but if it gets the circuit working and 99.9% of the gpu chip isn't being used because of the external graphics, then you "might" get by, but it's far from a sound reliable system.

I don't normally like to comment on this because so many people use this information to scam people, either selling laptops or boards with bad GPU chips, but if you want to temporarily revive the board you don't have to risk destroying the rest of the board, nor do you have to go through all the work of removing the board and wrapping it up like one of the loony ufo abduction victims wearing aluminum foil hats lol You can use a heatgun, just remove the heatsink and clean the gpu chip and put something over the laptop with a hole cut in it, foil covered cardboard will work, or even cardboard alone if you're careful, then simply run your heatgun aimed at the gpu chip for 10-15mins, then let it cool slowly making sure not to touch anything or move the laptop. (note: if you do manage to melt the solder even a tiny bump can dislodge the BGA connections and you will go up in smoke as soon as you power it on).

This won't last longer then a few hours/days/weeks, maybe a few months if you're really lucky, and even then it won't be fully functional, your GPU will have hotspots when stressed, but it "may" make it partially usable for longer periods of time if you use the external gpu. This is hardly a fix, but it will work as good as baking with much less risk and less work.

You can even do this with a hair dryer, although they don't usually produce as much heat. I've even had reports of people blowing hot air in the exhaust port with a hair dryer and getting the laptop to boot up.

In my opinion none of this is wise and is only an exercise in futility. An 08/08 board (not cheap or easy to find) or a board with Intel graphics would be the obvious solution, but I have used heatguns to confirm a gpu failure, although I'd never do so expecting to make a laptop useable.


So, you have a pre-08/08 nvidia model and you fear it will fail?

Unless you just purchased it from a questionable source, it may never fail. Neither nVidia nor Lenovo has ever published failure stats, but inside sources at Lenovo have told me that the number of warranty dollars spent on T61/T61p gpu failures isn't even a drop in the bucket compared to what was spent on things like ram modules, harddrives, LCDs, hinges etc... and if you look at the number of reports we get on the lenovo forum it is consistent with this fact considering that there were millions upon millions of affected units and if even 1% of them failed we would be seeing a lot more failures then have been reported. I suspect that even after 6+ years the total failures still haven't reached 1%. This is speculation, but it's based on direct observation and fact, not just guesswork. You can definitely be sure the potential exists for failure, but it's far from certain. In addition, all evidence leads us to believe nVidia first begun rolling out the improved design as far back as febuary 2008. They did it quietly as to not draw attention, so there were no revision numbers added or no official notice from nVidia. Lenovo did finally state that units made before 08/08 were at risk, but they haven't given much more details and cannot even "officially" call the chips defective due to settlement deals with nVidia.

I won't bore you with more details here, so suffice it to say that if your system works well just make sure you have a good efficient cooling system and avoid unnecessary heat cycling. In otherwords, if it's on, keep it on, when it's off, keep it off... don't turn it on and off several times a day and don't allow it to enter standby or sleep. Heat cycling stresses the chip because the different materials expand at different rates and this will lead to fractures over time.

If however you just purchased your laptop (or board) and you're having blue screen crashes, failure to post, or heat spikes in your gpu chip, you may have been scammed with a board that was baked or reflowed. These scammers often dump the laptops on websites like Ebay and after a few weeks there is nothing the buyer can do and the sellers can usually avoid bad feedback by simply giving chearful refunds and passing it on to the next victim. Most buyers will blame the manufacturer and feel sorry for the "good" seller who had to refund a sale. I see this often when I'm contacted by members who buy used laptops and have them fail in the first few months. It happens far to often to be random chance because the chips just don't fail that often.

[aoitenshi]

Got a good used XFX Radeon HD5570 2GB DDR3 locally

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a364/ ... b5afd7.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a364/ ... 155004.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a364/ ... c3aab2.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a364/ ... d0e892.jpg

I have to remove one stick 2GB ram, so the T61 can boot from Radeon HD5570 .. aaaaanndd only one problem ..
The bolts that hold the videocard's heatsink are a bit longer, so they make "a lump" when I put on the dock's cover ..
I want to change shorter bolts, but the videocard is still in warranty, so that makes me have to wait for 5 more months so I can remove "the warranty stickers" on the bolts


Big thanks to TuuS, whom always gave good advice for my T61

[vvv2]

What can I do if broken T61 nVidia:

- I can change the motherboard to INTEL video;
- I can put a external PCI-e video;
- I can heat broken nVidia;

what else?

[Cigarguy]

Change the motherboard or change the laptop. External video via the advance dock is a waste of time and effort considering the cost involved in sourcing a new board and video card. Even then, it's only a temporary fix. You can cook the GPU all you want, it's still only a temporary fix.

[yak]

@Lockhead

IMO, OP's thinking is something like this: The laptop doesn't work. Attempting a fix will be temporary at best and may destroy it completely. Therefore, he decides that he needs a new laptop (the fact that it will be better/faster helps his decision). What to do with the T61? Throw it away? Why not turn it into a desktop?

He doesn't see this as a fix. He's buying a new machine for his laptop needs.

[nforce4max]

The reason why most attempts to recover failed boards (Nvidia) is usually down to how it was done. The best reflow methods are usually with a full board in an oven or in some instances even a gas torch (never done that one but told it does wonders on HP boards) but the temps needs to be higher than what most people use. 390-400 starts to get much better results than 350-385 with a long cool down period. I always pre-heat the boards before allowing them to bake and allow them to gradually cool to avoid the joints re-cracking.

Half of the time it could have been avoided if people didn't allow the gpu to overheat and the actions of notebook makers created the conditions for failure. Thermal pads galore spelled the end for a lot of boards all the way to 2010.

[ajkula66]

The reason why most attempts to recover failed boards (Nvidia) is usually down to how it was done. The best reflow methods are usually with a full board in an oven or in some instances even a gas torch (never done that one but told it does wonders on HP boards) but the temps needs to be higher than what most people use. 390-400 starts to get much better results than 350-385 with a long cool down period. I always pre-heat the boards before allowing them to bake and allow them to gradually cool to avoid the joints re-cracking.

You do understand that the solder joint cracking is NOT what the whole nVidia problem was about?

Half of the time it could have been avoided if people didn't allow the gpu to overheat and the actions of notebook makers created the conditions for failure. Thermal pads galore spelled the end for a lot of boards all the way to 2010.

You are wrong, since many of the boards that have failed had never been exposed to overheating of any kind.

Please do a bit more research prior to posting about these - and other fairly complicated yet long-since-resolved issues - if you expect to be taken seriously.

[nforce4max]

The reason why most attempts to recover failed boards (Nvidia) is usually down to how it was done. The best reflow methods are usually with a full board in an oven or in some instances even a gas torch (never done that one but told it does wonders on HP boards) but the temps needs to be higher than what most people use. 390-400 starts to get much better results than 350-385 with a long cool down period. I always pre-heat the boards before allowing them to bake and allow them to gradually cool to avoid the joints re-cracking.

You do understand that the solder joint cracking is NOT what the whole nVidia problem was about?

Half of the time it could have been avoided if people didn't allow the gpu to overheat and the actions of notebook makers created the conditions for failure. Thermal pads galore spelled the end for a lot of boards all the way to 2010.

You are wrong, since many of the boards that have failed had never been exposed to overheating of any kind.

Please do a bit more research prior to posting about these - and other fairly complicated yet long-since-resolved issues - if you expect to be taken seriously.

I disagree on the second part, I salvage laptops as a hobby and every time I have found a machine with this issue the cooler was always blocked by filth with only one exception. Second they didn't use led-tin on the gpu core but only on the substrate and some of the failures were the vram related. The remainder was the joints were weak from the start and those are usually easy to fix but have to get them hot enough to almost collapse. The only real con is that the boards come out very brittle from the reflow. The joints have to melt for it to work not partially heal from the micro cracking, the bonding for the cores was never the issue as that was the same being used by AMD (TSMC). IBM used the same material for a decade before the whole plague surfaced with Nvidia.

[ajkula66]

I disagree on the second part, I salvage laptops as a hobby and every time I have found a machine with this issue the cooler was always blocked by filth with only one exception. Second they didn't use led-tin on the gpu core but only on the substrate and some of the failures were the vram related. The remainder was the joints were weak from the start and those are usually easy to fix but have to get them hot enough to almost collapse. The only real con is that the boards come out very brittle from the reflow. The joints have to melt for it to work not partially heal from the micro cracking, the bonding for the cores was never the issue as that was the same being used by AMD (TSMC). IBM used the same material for a decade before the whole plague surfaced with Nvidia.

IBM had a *ton* of issues with BGA chips...so I'll take the liberty of repeating myself:

Please do a bit more research prior to posting about these - and other fairly complicated yet long-since-resolved issues - if you expect to be taken seriously.

Some of us have gone through thousands of ThinkPads and volunteered a tremendous amount of time and knowledge in order to keep this forum free from misinformation and half-truths when it comes to ThinkPads.

I'd strongly suggest reading TuuS' posts on nVidia issues in *61 series. You'll learn a lot.

[Medessec]

When I first joined this forum, I was severely thrown off by certain issues, and the NVIDIA issue was kind of the most weird to me. It's easy for someone who's barely brushed the surface of hardware diagnostic(sticking a hot air dryer to an XBOX 360 to fix it) to misconceive the NVIDIA issue as being the usual BGA solder coming off. So many modern computing devices suffer the same issue(A31, T4x, T60, XBOX 360 RROD, PS3 CECH-A01 YLOD, MXM laptop video cards).

Just so everyone's clear:
-The NVIDIA chip malfunction is not a BGA desolder from weak solder. It is a fault in the actual ceramic die, the CHIP. NOT the solder. The only way to FIX the NVIDIA chip issue on a board that has suffered the dilemma is to have the chip completely removed from the board via a BGA rework station, then a working NVIDIA chip of the same exact type soldered back on. That may be why soldering is mentioned, but the chip's actual demise has NOTHING to do with the actual solder, and simply baking or "reflowing" a board with a faulty chip will produce NO results.

Yes, the A31's 7800 and the 7500 in other Thinkpads from the same generation, as well as the T43's X300/X600/V3200, T60p's V5200, and the W500's V5700 all have faults related to overheating and bad solder. But PLEASE do not confuse this with the NVIDIA issue that plagues T61s. And PLEASE do not go and buy a T61 with a faulty chip, thinking it's easy to repair, then realizing nothing works and coming on here asking us about it. I've gotten asked the question countless times in person by classmates who have bought T61s, and I'm pretty sure the guys on here have gotten their share.

[luke4010]

I just received my T61 15" widescreen with the nVIDIA Quadro NVS 140M, but the date code on the bottom says 08/08. Does that mean that it's safe? I don't plan on doing anything graphically-intensive though. Just regular web browsing and running programs.

[Medessec]

I believe 08/08 and later is the definition, although please correct me if I'm wrong. Which means that by my immediate conclusion, you are in the clear and you have yourself a pretty nice T61.

[mbr12]

The date on the bottom of my T61 with nvidia Quadro is buggered. It looks like 8/03. Is that possible? If not it must be 8/08.

[RealBlackStuff]

Go with the S/N (without the -) and TYPE (e.g. 6460) to the Warranty check: http://support.lenovo.com/en_US/product ... fault.page?
It'll give you the exact mfg. date.

[600X]

Go with the S/N (without the -) and TYPE (e.g. 6460) to the Warranty check: http://support.lenovo.com/en_US/product ... fault.page?
It'll give you the exact mfg. date.

As far as I know the manufacturing date of the machine and the manufacturing date of the NVIDIA may differ, so you can receive a T61 which was assembled in August 08, but still have a NVIDIA which was produced long before that.

Only way to be sure is to check the NVIDIA chip itself for the time stamp.

[ajkula66]

As far as I know the manufacturing date of the machine and the manufacturing date of the NVIDIA may differ, so you can receive a T61 which was assembled in August 08, but still have a NVIDIA which was produced long before that.

A very slim chance, at least in the U.S. where Lenovo destroyed a vast majority of existing spare planars in July of 2008, according to the sources within the company.

Only way to be sure is to check the NVIDIA chip itself for the time stamp.

Questionable. A large number of chips has been re-etched by Chinese counterfeiters...

I'll just repeat what I've been saying on this matter for years now: know where you're getting your nVidia-based *61 unit from. That's the best you can do.

[mbr12]

Checking with the serial# through Lenovo only shows when the warranty began "2008-04-08". I assume that's when it was first sold, but does it mean April 8th or August 4th?

[ajkula66]

April 8th.

Built in March, delivered in April, makes perfect sense.

[mbr12]

Why would the sticker on the bottom say 8/08 if the warranty started 4/08?

[RealBlackStuff]

The bottom date is in format YY/MM, so yours would/should be 08/04 (year 2008/month 04)

[ajkula66]

I'd bet on 08/03...March of 2008.

[mbr12]

That would explain it.