T60 poor wireless speeds - wireless card or router? or both?

[droyder]

Hello. I've tried searching different things about this here, but can't find really anything certain.

On my T60, I'm getting speeds of 36D/8U when hardwired to my modem or router.

I'm only getting 8D/2U(at best) when connected wirelessly to my router (an older Linksys WRT110).

I'm still using the original "Atheros 11a/b/g Wireless LAN Mini PCI Express Adater" card that came with my T60. I've also updated from the Lenovo site which appears to be the latest available driver from 2009 for this Atheros card: 7.6.1.260b

My questions:

1. Is my current driver the latest or best version? If not, what's the better version and where can I find it? Could the wrong driver alone really account for this much of a drop-off?

2. Should I be able to achieve the same or very close speeds to what I'm getting hardwired (36D/8U) with my current card? Or do I need to upgrade to an N card to do so? If so, which N card is compatible? This wireless speed drop-off is pretty stunning.

3. Is there some kind of capped speed on this original Atheros 11a/b/g card?

4. Or is it more likely my router that's holding me back? I've got a secured network and I'm usually within just a few feet of my router when online. I have the router set to a wide radio range as well, but I suppose it's possible there could another setting I'm missing? The settings seem rather straight forward, so I can't imagine what that'd be though. I've also read the Linksys forums and can't seem to find anything there either.


Anyway, I would really appreciate anyone's help on this. Thanks so much!

[ajkula66]

Welcome to the forum!

My questions:

1. Is my current driver the latest or best version? If not, what's the better version and where can I find it? Could the wrong driver alone really account for this much of a drop-off?

What OS are you running? Is the card set for maximum performance in its wireless properties?

2. Should I be able to achieve the same or very close speeds to what I'm getting hardwired (36D/8U) with my current card? Or do I need to upgrade to an N card to do so? If so, which N card is compatible? This wireless speed drop-off is pretty stunning.

I'd advise you to try the machine at someone else's house, or in a Starbucks, and see what type of readings you get there.

3. Is there some kind of capped speed on this original Atheros 11a/b/g card?

54Mbps is the cap.

4. Or is it more likely my router that's holding me back? I've got a secured network and I'm usually within just a few feet of my router when online. I have the router set to a wide radio range as well, but I suppose it's possible there could another setting I'm missing? The settings seem rather straight forward, so I can't imagine what that'd be though. I've also read the Linksys forums and can't seem to find anything there either.

I'm not too keen on Linksys, so I'll keep my mouth shut...

[droyder]

Thanks for the reply.

What OS are you running? Is the card set for maximum performance in its wireless properties?

XP Pro with Service Pack 3. I believe maximum performance is set on the card's properties if we're talking about the same thing. Are these the settings located on the "Advanced" tab once you click the Configure button on the card? Where each "Transmit Rate" value should be set to 54 Mbps? Or is there another area where to set maximum performance?

I'd advise you to try the machine at someone else's house, or in a Starbucks, and see what type of readings you get there.

Good idea, haven't checked my readings in such an environment. Do most business establishments push speeds greater than at least, say, 30 to 50 Mbps?

54Mbps is the cap.

Ah, right. So then, in theory, I should be able to wirelessly match my hardwired speeds with this original card, correct? I subscribe to 30 Mbps and am getting even better speeds at 35 Mbps when hardwired to my modem or router.

I'm not too keen on Linksys, so I'll keep my mouth shut...

No problem and I'm totally willing to replace it if it's indeed the source of my issue here. I just want to be able to diagnose things accurately before switching out either the card and/or router.

From any experience you have and knowing my specifics here, would you guess either way what the main issue for the drop-off might be?

[TTY]

2. Should I be able to achieve the same or very close speeds to what I'm getting hardwired (36D/8U) with my current card?

From what i've read, speeds as high as 36 Mbps aren't realistic on 802.11a or 802.11g connections. Wikipedia mentions achievable net throughput in the mid-20 Mbps range with 802.11a and 19 Mbps net throughput with 802.11g. I believe, however, that with your current equipment, you should be able to get higher speeds than the 8 Mbps you're getting now.

4. Or is it more likely my router that's holding me back? I've got a secured network and I'm usually within just a few feet of my router when online. I have the router set to a wide radio range as well, but I suppose it's possible there could another setting I'm missing?

With the WRT110, the default network mode is "mixed", i.e. the router is able to talk to b, g as well as n clients. From what i understand, the fact that it can talk to b clients slows it down a bit. If you have only g-clients on your wireless network, set the router's network mode to "Wireless-G Only". If you don't have 802.11n clients on your wireless network, set the router's radio band to "Standard - 20 MHz channel".

[droyder]

From what i've read, speeds as high as 36 Mbps aren't realistic on 802.11a or 802.11g connections. Wikipedia mentions achievable net throughput in the mid-20 Mbps range with 802.11a and 19 Mbps net throughput with 802.11g. I believe, however, that with your current equipment, you should be able to get higher speeds than the 8 Mbps you're getting now.

Interesting. So just because the Atheros card is 54Mbps, doesn't necessarily mean it can achieve that?

With the WRT110, the default network mode is "mixed", i.e. the router is able to talk to b, g as well as n clients. From what i understand, the fact that it can talk to b clients slows it down a bit. If you have only g-clients on your wireless network, set the router's network mode to "Wireless-G Only". If you don't have 802.11n clients on your wireless network, set the router's radio band to "Standard - 20 MHz channel".

Is a "client" another mobile device or computer that might be connected to my network? If so, my T60 is the only client on my network.

Thanks for your reply.

[TTY]

So just because the Atheros card is 54Mbps, doesn't necessarily mean it can achieve that?

The Atheros card should be able to achieve 54 Mbps in a few feet distance to the T60, but there's a lot of overhead in wireless data communication. So if the utility, that you're using to measure throughput, measures net throughput, it will indicate significantly lower throughput than 54 Mbps, even if the wireless network itself is running at true 54 Mbps.

Is a "client" another mobile device or computer that might be connected to my network?

Yes.

[droyder]

With the WRT110, the default network mode is "mixed", i.e. the router is able to talk to b, g as well as n clients. From what i understand, the fact that it can talk to b clients slows it down a bit. If you have only g-clients on your wireless network, set the router's network mode to "Wireless-G Only". If you don't have 802.11n clients on your wireless network, set the router's radio band to "Standard - 20 MHz channel".

I just changed my router settings to Standard 20 MHz and G-Only and got some improvement. I also set the radio channel to 11 per some other suggestion on the Linksys forum - apparently that channel experiences the least interference.

Wireless speed is now 15D/6U with these settings.

The strange thing is that when hardwired my upload is also 6 Mbps. So I'm getting the same UL speeds regardless how I'm connected, but my DL is 20 Mbps slower via wireless. Any idea if that's not uncommon, or does it perhaps point to something being wrong on the DL side only?

I'm on a Motorola SB6141 modem if that matters.

Thanks so much again for all your help.

[TTY]

ThinkVantage Access Connections shows what other access points and wireless routers are in the vicinity and what channels they're using.

If you are in a very congested area, it might be a good idea to use an access point that is also capable of utilizing the 5 GHz band. The WRT110 is only capable of using the 2.4 GHz band. In North America, the 2.4 GHz band offers 11 channels, but only three of them are non-overlapping. The 5 GHz band has at least 12 non-overlapping channels, so chances, that the access point finds a channel that doesn't receive interference from another router/access point, are much better in the 5 GHz band than in the 2.4 GHz band. The card in your notebook is capable of using the 5 GHz band, albeit at 54 Mbps.

The fact, that you get the same upload speed on the wireless network as on the wired network is probably due to the circumstance, that in this case, the limiting factor is the speed of your internet connection (between modem and ISP), and not the speed of the wireless connection between router and notebook.

[droyder]

ThinkVantage Access Connections shows what other access points and wireless routers are in the vicinity and what channels they're using.

ah cool. found it and saw the other wireless routers in my area, i live in an apt building so there's quite a few. details showed that everyone is on an 802.11g connection like myself and most were on channel 1, and the rest were on channels 6 & 11.. which might be the only 3 non-overlapping channels.

If you are in a very congested area, it might be a good idea to use an access point that is also capable of utilizing the 5 GHz band. The WRT110 is only capable of using the 2.4 GHz band. In North America, the 2.4 GHz band offers 11 channels, but only three of them are non-overlapping. The 5 GHz band has at least 12 non-overlapping channels, so chances, that the access point finds a channel that doesn't receive interference from another router/access point, are much better in the 5 GHz band than in the 2.4 GHz band. The card in your notebook is capable of using the 5 GHz band, albeit at 54 Mbps.

so it seems my card is good enough since it can access the 5GHz band, the problem is that my router can't. so any potential speed increase means i would need a dual-band/N router. in that set-up, my atheros card still doesn't have N, so i'm assuming only the A on the card could access the 5Ghz on the router (and B works only for 2.4GHz)?

The fact, that you get the same upload speed on the wireless network as on the wired network is probably due to the circumstance, that in this case, the limiting factor is the speed of your internet connection (between modem and ISP), and not the speed of the wireless connection between router and notebook.

weird, i thought my internet connection between my ISP and modem was actually my strong point here? afterall, i'm paying my ISP for a range up to 30Mbps, but i'm actually getting 35Mbps when hardwired to my modem. i'm just using speedtest.net to measure.

[TTY]

so it seems my card is good enough since it can access the 5GHz band, the problem is that my router can't. so any potential speed increase means i would need a dual-band/N router. in that set-up, my atheros card still doesn't have N, so i'm assuming only the A on the card could access the 5Ghz on the router (and B works only for 2.4GHz)?

Yes, 802.11a uses the 5 GHz band, 802.11b and 802.11g use the 2.4 GHz band. 802.11b is old technology and is slower than 802.11g. n speeds are possible on the 2.4 GHz as well as on the 5 GHz band. But as there are several other access points or wireless routers using the 2.4 GHz band in your vicinity, it might be a good idea to switch to the 5 GHz band.
Some T60 models came with n-capable cards. These cards are called "ThinkPad 11a/b/g/n Mini PCI Express Adapter" and use the Atheros AR5008 chipset. From what i understand, they require three antennas. The ThinkPad 11a/b/g Mini PCIe Adapter, that is in your notebook, requires only two antennas. If you want to find out whether your notebook has two or three antennas, you would probably have to open it up and take a look. The Hardware Maintenance Manual (HMM) has detailed instructions on how to open and how to service your notebook. It's available at
http://support.lenovo.com/de_DE/product ... D=PD009602

If the notebook should happen to have three antennas, you might want to switch wireless card, the n-capable ones might be available on ebay. You can find the part number for the wireless card in the HMM, there are different part numbers for these cards depending on the machine type and model of your notebook. The type and model of your notebook is printed on the bottom of the notebook. I believe it's an eight character code, where the fifth character is a hyphen. If you should decide to get a new wireless card, make sure you get a Lenovo or IBM branded product with a part number that matches what you see in the HMM. The notebook will probably reject cards from other manufacturers.

This document contains details of select T60 configurations, including the names of wireless cards:
http://www.lenovo.com/psref/pdf/ltwbook.pdf

weird, i thought my internet connection between my ISP and modem was actually my strong point here? afterall, i'm paying my ISP for a range up to 30Mbps, but i'm actually getting 35Mbps when hardwired to my modem. i'm just using speedtest.net to measure.

You're paying for 30 Mbps download, but with many flavours of broadband technology, upload speed will be just a fraction of download speed. So 6 Mbps upload speed seems very reasonable to me

[ajkula66]

You're paying for 30 Mbps download, but with many flavours of broadband technology, upload speed will be just a fraction of download speed. So 6 Mbps upload speed seems very reasonable to me

Very true. Most of the broadband plans do not offer matching upstream/downstream speeds, SHDSL and T-carrier circuits being about the only exceptions that I'm aware of, and none of these will give you a 30Mbps download without taking your kidney as a down payment first...

The Atheros-chipped abgn card is FRU 42T0825, and works fine with 2 antennae as well as with 3. I was able to get 300Mbps transfers with 2 wires. YMMV.

[droyder]

Yes, 802.11a uses the 5 GHz band, 802.11b and 802.11g use the 2.4 GHz band. 802.11b is old technology and is slower than 802.11g. n speeds are possible on the 2.4 GHz as well as on the 5 GHz band. But as there are several other access points or wireless routers using the 2.4 GHz band in your vicinity, it might be a good idea to switch to the 5 GHz band.
Some T60 models came with n-capable cards. These cards are called "ThinkPad 11a/b/g/n Mini PCI Express Adapter" and use the Atheros AR5008 chipset. From what i understand, they require three antennas. The ThinkPad 11a/b/g Mini PCIe Adapter, that is in your notebook, requires only two antennas. If you want to find out whether your notebook has two or three antennas, you would probably have to open it up and take a look. The Hardware Maintenance Manual (HMM) has detailed instructions on how to open and how to service your notebook. It's available at
http://support.lenovo.com/de_DE/product ... D=PD009602

my T60 only has 2 antenna connector plugs that attach to the top of my atheros 11a/b/g card. i don't think anyone's notebook that came with the 11a/b/g card has 3 antennas because that card only has 2 spots for connectors. whereas the 11a/g/b/n card comes with 3 connector spots.

You're paying for 30 Mbps download, but with many flavours of broadband technology, upload speed will be just a fraction of download speed. So 6 Mbps upload speed seems very reasonable to me

yes, i understand that upload speeds are only a fraction of download speeds. my upload speeds via hardwire are 6Mbps and via wireless are 6Mbps. so i'm getting the same performance on upload speeds whether i'm connected wireless or not.

what makes no sense is that my download speeds are 35Mbps via hardwire, but only 15Mbps via wireless. there shouldn't be a 20Mbps loss on download speeds from hardwire to wireless.

[droyder]

The Atheros-chipped abgn card is FRU 42T0825, and works fine with 2 antennae as well as with 3. I was able to get 300Mbps transfers with 2 wires. YMMV.

there's only 2 wires connected to my current atheros abg card, so i would only have 2 wires to use on the abgn card. but the abgn has 3 spots where wires can be connected.

is it ok if you leave one of the spots on the abgn card unconnected to a wire? and where do you have your 2 wires plugged in on your abgn card? are they on the first and last spots, leaving the middle spot open?

is there a way to add another wire to your laptop so that you can have 3 wires for the card? thanks!

[RealBlackStuff]

The connectors on that 42T0825 are marked from left to right: 1-3-2 (on other cards also 2-1-0).
In a 2-antenna system:
Connect Grey or White or Main to the left (1, others 2)
Connect Black or Aux to the right (2, others 0)
Leave the middle one free (3, others 1)

In a 3-antenna system it's (from L to R): Grey/White/Black

[BKthink]

You can add the third wire, but you will need to get creative with antenna placement. I put my third antenna on the right edge of the screen, behind the empty wwan cover, but I needed to trim things a bit. Removing the screen bezel carries some risk. Another potential spot is near the left screen hinge under the keyboard cover. Can't say if it's really worth the trouble since I made a bunch of changes all at once.

BK

[TTY]

what makes no sense is that my download speeds are 35Mbps via hardwire, but only 15Mbps via wireless. there shouldn't be a 20Mbps loss on download speeds from hardwire to wireless.

The lower wireless speed is possibly caused by interference from other wireless networks that are on the same channel as yours. Personally, i would forget about wireless and use powerline. The reason is that whenever possible, i try to use copper instead of air in order to minimize radio frequency exposure. But that's just me. If i would have to implement a wireless network in an RF congested environment, i would probably first get an access point capable of using the 5 GHz band, set up the new network, and check what speeds i get.

[droyder]

The connectors on that 42T0825 are marked from left to right: 1-3-2 (on other cards also 2-1-0).
In a 2-antenna system:
Connect Grey or White or Main to the left (1, others 2)
Connect Black or Aux to the right (2, others 0)
Leave the middle one free (3, others 1)

In a 3-antenna system it's (from L to R): Grey/White/Black

Thanks, so I assume the card would still function ok with the middle one free? I.E. the system wouldn't reject it thinking there was some kind of error?

[droyder]

You can add the third wire, but you will need to get creative with antenna placement. I put my third antenna on the right edge of the screen, behind the empty wwan cover, but I needed to trim things a bit. Removing the screen bezel carries some risk. Another potential spot is near the left screen hinge under the keyboard cover. Can't say if it's really worth the trouble since I made a bunch of changes all at once.

BK

Ah, good to know. Wouldn't probably go to that extent myself, but it's interesting to hear that others have done so. I know there's quite a few builders and customizers on this forum.

[droyder]

If i would have to implement a wireless network in an RF congested environment, i would probably first get an access point capable of using the 5 GHz band, set up the new network, and check what speeds i get.

Yeah, this needs to be my next step. Buy a router with 5 GHz and then see my speeds. If I'm still not happy at that point, then buy the Atheros n card. Thanks again for you all your replies and suggestions.

[BKthink]

Install the free little utility inSSIDer and take a look at your local landscape to help choose the least crowded wireless channel. Really nice interface.

http://www.metageek.net/products/inssider/

BK

[uberT]

I'm on a Motorola SB6141 modem if that matters.

D, I've got a T61 and found an N+ wireless card for it. I don't know if this is an option for you.

I run two separate networks in the house. One for old devices and one for devices that can connect to N+. My T420 and T61 maximize my Comcast connection at 70/7. The older devices on the b/g network are limited to around 19Mbps down and 7 up. For some reason, the old R60e does it at 19 down and 11 up.

I have the same Motorola modem as you.

The wireless card I found for the T61 required me to find and install the Intel driver pkg (found at their site, I think the card was $20 or so).