Cloning vs Imaging

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taichi · #1 Post by **taichi** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:14 am

One thing that frustrates me about my T60p (about which I have NO other complaints...a great device) is the inability to clone to an external USB drive. My ancient, trusty A21P was able to do this. I periodically (and painlessly) cloned my entire internal drive to an external unit, knowing that I could simply swap drives in case of emergency.

The T60P cannot do this, requiring not only that the internal drive be swapped to an external enclosure, and the destination drive installed internally, but also a few steps taken to permit the cloned drive to boot.

Imaging (which is possible), apparently, is not quite as bulletproof as cloning, with some people having bumps or worse restoring from an image.

Does anyone know of any mod, device, or application that will permit easy cloning from my internal drive to a USB drive? This cannot be as difficult as sending Curiosity to Mars, where, by the way, evidence of water and other building blocks of life were quite recently revealed by a drilled rock sample.

Thanks in advance.

ajkula66 · #2 Post by **ajkula66** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:44 am

Using Acronis True Image...

Place the NEW drive in the main hard drive bay and the CURRENT one in the USB enclosure.

Boot from the Acronis "live" CD.

Follow the instructions.

#3 Post by **RealBlackStuff** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:53 am

That's where a PC comes in much handier.
I have Acronis True Image Home 2012, Update 2 (build 7119) on my PC.
Furthermore I use the Apricorn DriveWire: http://www.apricorn.com/products/notebo ... apter.html

Whenever I need a backup, I remove the HD from wherever, hook it up to the Apricorn (which will be hooked up to the PC) and take an image to be stored on one of the PC's hard drives.
If I need a clone, I attach another HD to the Apricorn, and Restore the image from the PC to that other HD.
Takes only a few minutes each way.
It has yet to fail [touches wood].

taichi · #4 Post by **taichi** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:02 pm

Hey, George.

So, as I was asking in my post, the disk swap is absolutely necessary?

The charm with the A21P was that all I had to do was plug my destination drive into the USB port, run the software, and in 30 minutes I was done. The simplicity of it made it painless to clone regularly.

As I am not adept with hardware DIY, I would prefer not having to swap drives every time I clone. When I need to clean dust out of my T60P, I take it to my trusted repair tech. I'm sure you and many others on this forum can do all this in your sleep!

ajkula66 · #5 Post by **ajkula66** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:12 pm

You might be asking the wrong guy...there are folks who know a lot more about cloning around here than silly old me...

Very rarely do I clone anything. Prefer a clean install myself.

When I *absolutely must* clone a drive, I follow the aforementioned process.

If one of the drives in question is Seagate, you can use their tool which is actually a proprietary version of Acronis, available as a free download from Seagate's website.

Given that you're dealing with a T60p, it's all good - no more pins to possibly bend when removing/inserting a hard drive - unlike the old PATA/IDE days...you can do it.

craigmontHunter · #6 Post by **craigmontHunter** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:37 pm

Just to clarify if I am understanding you correctly, you want to have an external drive that is a clone of the internal drive, and use that to swap in rather than having an image and restoring it back, which is all you can do now, right?

I'm not overly familiar with cloning software, however it would probably be easier to figure out if you posted what software you were using for cloning for both the A21p and the T60p - it may be an inherent limitation in the software rather than the machine, especially since imaging is a more common backup solution than keeping a secondary hard drive around.

robert213 · #7 Post by **robert213** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:54 pm

I have routinely used Acronis True Image Home 11 (and Acronis True Image Home 2013) to clone the internal (source) HD of my T61. I place the external (target) HD in either...
1) Apricorn DriveWire USB HDD adapter
2) Silverstone Raven USB HD enclosure
3) UltraBay SATA adapter

Acronis True Image automatically shut-downs my T61 after it completes the clone process.

I have instinctively removed external (source) HD, before powering on my T61. I have been told that it is very important to disconnect external (source) HD, before pressing power-on button.

taichi · #8 Post by **taichi** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:15 pm

The hardware and software that I used on my A21P was an Apricorn EZGig USB Upgrade, using their software.

I was under the impression that Acronis was an imaging software, rather than a clone making software.

What I'm trying to avoid doing... if it is at all possible... is having to swap drives prior to cloning or imaging. I would like to find a way to enable what I was able to do on the A21P... simply plug in the Apricorn or some comparable unit via USB, and copy my internal drive onto the external drive. Apparently there is some restriction that forbids such a clone from internal to external with the T series and beyond.

My wanting to avoid image making software is based on reading the experiences of people who have not successfully restored their drives from images. The beauty of the cloned drive is that no further processing is necessary. All that is necessary to do in the case of an emergency is swap out the drives, although I have read that even with this solution some boot information may become corrupted, and require an OS disk to repair the corruption.

The reason so many people do not bother to back up their data is the inconvenience or difficulty in doing so. The easier that one can make the process, the more attractive backing up becomes. For me, cloning my A21P was just a matter of plugging in the Apricorn, running the software, and keeping an eye on it to disengage the external drive before the unit booted up again. It was so painless, that I did it every two or three weeks.

By the way, thanks for all the replies.

Neil · #9 Post by **Neil** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:47 pm

When you clone a drive to an external enclosure, you have no way of knowing for sure if the clone was successful until you put the drive into the machine and try to boot from it. Right? So, if for whatever reason, you have a failed clone sitting in that external enclosure, and you have a drive failure and need to install your back-up drive, you are in real trouble when you only then discover you don't have a back-up after all.

The beauty of removing your existing (and fully functioning) hard drive and installing it in the external enclosure before cloning, is you know for certain the external drive in now functional. And once the drive is cloned, you will be booting and using the cloned drive until you want to create your next back-up. This way you know instantly that your back-up/cloning process was successful.

robert213 · #10 Post by **robert213** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:12 pm

taichi wrote:I was under the impression that Acronis was an imaging software, rather than a clone making software.

Acronis True Image does both imaging and making cloned HD.

Crunch · #11 Post by **Crunch** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:42 pm

I do this all the time on my GF's T60. I clone her HD to another every so often using Acronis True Image. No problem at all. Acronis Disk Director is also a great piece of software and complement each other very well.

taichi · #12 Post by **taichi** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:30 pm

Neil wrote:When you clone a drive to an external enclosure, you have no way of knowing for sure if the clone was successful until you put the drive into the machine and try to boot from it. Right?...

...And once the drive is cloned, you will be booting and using the cloned drive until you want to create your next back-up. This way you know instantly that your back-up/cloning process was successful.

I see your point, and it's a good one. When I used Apricorn on my A21, I just went into the drive and made sure the files and folders were intact. But you're right in saying that you would not know if the drive would boot.

This brings up a question. When I had my repair tech clone the drive once before, he mounted both source and destination drives in a desktop PC, explaining that this would be faster or better...

However the issue I mentioned earlier occurred...a failure to boot until the OS disk was inserted. I have read about this issue before with Thinkpads, that the MBR can be affected in the cloning reinstall process. If I do as you recommend, is this problem avoided?

Would you use Acronis for cloning in this scenario, or another program.

My real worry is that I will damage pins or connectors swapping drives, or will damage it with a static charge.

Would any USB enclosure do, or are there drives and enclosures that are Thinkpad friendly? Currently I'm using a 500GB Scorpio Black...a great drive.

I did notice that Crunch clones to external drives using Acronis on a T60, so I guess that it is possible. I wonder were I got the notion that it wasn't??

craigmontHunter · #13 Post by **craigmontHunter** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:52 pm

personally I would recommend getting an ultrabay adapter, since they would be faster than usb as well as being rated for more insertions/removal - SATA is technically only rated for 50. if you are going to just switch drives, I would recommend getting a second caddy so that the circuit board on the drive is protected all the time - then just use an external adapter like you were before.

ajkula66 · #14 Post by **ajkula66** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:53 pm

taichi wrote: I see your point, and it's a good one. When I used Apricorn on my A21, I just went into the drive and made sure the files and folders were intact. But you're right in saying that you would not know if the drive would boot.

However the issue I mentioned earlier occurred...a failure to boot until the OS disk was inserted. I have read about this issue before with Thinkpads, that the MBR can be affected in the cloning reinstall process. If I do as you recommend, is this problem avoided?

Let me answer for Neil, hopefully he won't mind: YES.

My real worry is that I will damage pins or connectors swapping drives, or will damage it with a static charge.

Chances of you actually accomplishing this are likely less than surviving a lightning bolt...

taichi · #15 Post by **taichi** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:31 pm

craigmontHunter wrote:personally I would recommend getting an ultrabay adapter...

So...if I get an ultrabay adapter, I install another HD into that (or into a caddy that fits into the adapter), and swap it with the DVD drive when I want to clone?

Am I right in assuming that if I clone to an ultrabay HD that the Thinkpad will recognize it as internal, bypassing whatever oddities might be encountered with external enclosures?

And further, installing it into the caddy is something like a semi-permanent install, taking the strain off the connectors?
Slipping it into the ultrabay, then would be a matter of simply sliding it in?

By the way, thanks to all the responders for their helpful input!

robert213 · #16 Post by **robert213** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:14 am

taichi wrote:This brings up a question. When I had my repair tech clone the drive once before, he mounted both source and destination drives in a desktop PC, explaining that this would be faster or better...

However the issue I mentioned earlier occurred...a failure to boot until the OS disk was inserted. I have read about this issue before with Thinkpads, that the MBR can be affected in the cloning reinstall process. If I do as you recommend, is this problem avoided?

Would you use Acronis for cloning in this scenario, or another program.

I have placed source HD in USB enclosure and placed target HD in UltraBay SATA adapter. Everything worked fine. No problems with MBR.

The main reason that you want to use UltraBay SATA adapter is that it is faster than USB.

The MUST HAVE item is Acronis True Image. Almost everyone on this board recommends Acronis True Image. I never debated them. I simply went to my local Fry's store and have used Acronis True Image Home 11 ever since.

The only reason that I now use Acronis True Image 2013 is that I clone SSD to traditional HD and clone traditional HD back to SSD. Acronis True Image Home 11 does NOT have SSD support (although folks on other forums have argued that it can be done with some trickery).

Purchase Acronis True Image 2013.

robert213 · #17 Post by **robert213** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:19 am

taichi wrote:And further, installing it into the caddy is something like a semi-permanent install, taking the strain off the connectors?
Slipping it into the ultrabay, then would be a matter of simply sliding it in?

I have placed traditional HD in Ultrabay adapter with caddy.
I have placed traditional HD in Ultrabay adapter without caddy.
Either will work fine. However, I agree with others that HD fits more securely WITH caddy.

Since SSD is thinner than traditional HD, SDD must be placed in Ultrabay adapter with caddy.

cadillacmike68 · #18 Post by **cadillacmike68** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:56 am

You also run a (small) risk or shorting the electronics on the PCB by putting an HDD in the Ultrabay HDD apter without the thin plastic backed caddy.

Caddies are only 2 or 3 dollars, get a few. I have 1 for nearly every HDD.

I have never taking a liking to imaging, it ties you to a specific software program for recovery that you can't test without writing over your existing HDD. To me actual copies of data files to a separate disk via the Ultrabay is much more reliable and flexible, and periodic clones to back up the whole

Using Acronis TI As Robert and Neil both state allow you to clone without moving your original HDD from the main bay, and you can start Acronis TI from windows. The clone feature is under the tools / utilities menu.

It is Very important to shut off the computer when the clone is finished and remove the freshly cloned drive. Acronis will [censored] off the computer for you, but You still need to remove the new clone.

I also recommend immediately putting it in the main bay and booting it to ensure that all is ok.

With Acronis TI it DOES NOT MATTER which drive is where. Don't get me started on this; I have cloned over 100 drives and 75% of them are with the original HDD in the main bay. Only 1 was via USB. I'm a supported of using docks, I have 2 out here in the desert with me.

While Acronis TI works well when started from within windows, it is much cleaner to boot from a "live CD" that Acronis will make for you. In order to do that you need a 3rd bay, such as the Advanced Dock. Or you need to put the ORIGINAL HDD in a USB enclosure, which I don't like because A: it's slower (Painfuilly slow on USB 1.1) and B: if you screw up the boot process or somehow get winblows starting to try and boot with the original HDD in a USB enclosure, it will "Fix " the MBR on your original drive making it non-bootable, and none of us wants that. It's a PITA to fix that unless you have an FDD with a Win98 startup diskette, which of course I have out here as well.

Bottom line,

Follow a few important rules, like power off and remove the cloned HDD when finished, Never boot with 2 bootable HDDs in the system, Never boot with with your intended boot HDD in a (USB) enclosure, and verify the new clone boots, and you will be ok.

taichi · #19 Post by **taichi** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:43 am

I'm beginning to think the ultrabay or advanced dock might be the best way to go. Can anyone post model numbers of docks, caddies, and ultrabay adapters specific to the T60 series?

The one thing I was always religious about when doing my Apricorn clones was removing the usb drive before Apricorn rebooted the system.

If I have the second HD in the caddy, does that swap out cleanly with the primary drive if I want to boot from the clone? Is the primary drive natively in its own caddy?

Regarding Acronis, weren't there some people that had problems with 2012-2013 versions?

Obviously I've been living in blissful Thinkpad ignorance for years, but my enjoyment of them has nevertheless been undiluted.

robert213 · #20 Post by **robert213** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:47 pm

taichi wrote:I'm beginning to think the ultrabay or advanced dock might be the best way to go. Can anyone post model numbers of docks, caddies, and ultrabay adapters specific to the T60 series?

Google "Lenovo Parts Support"
http://support.lenovo.com/en_US/product ... nding.page
<click> green box
enter T60p

I have purchased caddies from...
1) one of the advertisers of this forum specializing in caddies
2) eBay (used)
3) Tuus (who had the fastest shipping)
Make sure that the seller provides four appropriate sized screws.
Rubber rails are a nice accessory, but I keep reusing the one that came with my machine.

Most folks purchase non-Lenovo Ultrabay SATA adapters.

Best advice. Private Message Tuus.

taichi wrote:The one thing I was always religious about when doing my Apricorn clones was removing the usb drive before Apricorn rebooted the system.

Do you own an Apricorn Drivewire USB adapter? It works as well (or better than) a USB enclosure. Go ahead and use that.

taichi wrote: If I have the second HD in the caddy, does that swap out cleanly with the primary drive if I want to boot from the clone? Is the primary drive natively in its own caddy?

I have each of my HD(s) mounted in its own caddy. I remove "rubber rails" from previous HD and place on desired HD.

taichi wrote: Regarding Acronis, weren't there some people that had problems with 2012-2013 versions?

The folks on other forums that experienced problems don't know how to properly use automated imaging feature. The cloning feature is very easy to use.

I have a thread over at Hardware and Software forum, describing my first experience using TI 2013. Once I went through being uncomfortable with unfamiliar screens the first time, it has been a joy to use ever since.

taichi · #21 Post by **taichi** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:30 pm

I have the Apricorn EZGIG USB HD enclosure.

It sounds like, on the simplest level, I can use Acronis to clone to the external Apricorn
USB Enclosure.

robert213 · #22 Post by **robert213** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:55 pm

taichi wrote:I have the Apricorn EZGIG USB HD enclosure.
It sounds like, on the simplest level, I can use Acronis to clone to the external Apricorn
USB Enclosure.

Something like this?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/400358934285

If I remember correctly, the Apricorn USB enclosure requires AC Power.
Just remember to...
1) Power-on Computer
2) Wait for Windows Desktop
3) Apply AC Power to Apricorn adapter
4) Connect USB cable
when USB enclosure contains bootable HD

I wish that I was familiar with the "cloning" software that is included with it, so I could offer you more help.

Yes, that will work fine.
--------------------------
If you are not already familiar with this tool...
[Control Panel]
[Adminsitratiive Tools]
[Computer Management]
[Disk Management]
Then you can determine whether Disk is mounted in computer, ultrabay, or USB

taichi · #23 Post by **taichi** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:31 pm

Yup. That's it. I'm trying to figure out where I concluded that I couldn't clone with that.

I'm still pondering the Ultrabay and docking solutions.

dr_st · #24 Post by **dr_st** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:42 am

taichi wrote:One thing that frustrates me about my T60p (about which I have NO other complaints...a great device) is the inability to clone to an external USB drive... The T60P cannot do this, requiring not only that the internal drive be swapped to an external enclosure, and the destination drive installed internally, but also a few steps taken to permit the cloned drive to boot.

Can someone explain once and for all the reason behind this statement (which I see repeated every once in a while)?

It make absolutely no sense to me that there is anything in the hardware that would make it impossible. It does make sense that some particular software may fail to do it right, because it doesn't recognize the controllers / partitions properly, causing all these weird issues.

#25 Post by **RealBlackStuff** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:47 am

There must be something in the HD controller of the main HD bay, that is specific to IBM/Lenovo.
This same "thing" is not active when accessing other drives, such as the Ultrabay or USB drives.
Whatever this is, it makes a small change to the HD when formatting a drive in the main HD bay.
This change is not applied when formatting other drives elsewhere.

So when an 'outside' formatted HD is put in the main HD bay, the controller looks for this 'change' and when it is not found, complains about missing OS or other error.
This "thing" must be something very small, like a bit gets 'flipped' on a HD sector in the HD controller area, probably the same area where the HD password is stored.
Can't think of any other explanation.

Questions:
Does this only apply when a program under Windows formats the HD?
Same problem if the format runs under Linux or even MAC OS?

taichi · #26 Post by **taichi** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:23 am

That's a terrific analysis, realblackstuff.

Yet people have reported that they are able to clone to external and ultrabay drives, so I am once again confused.

Are those who are successful using a live cd where Windows OS is bypassed, as you discuss?

How do you backup, image, or clone your data or system?

I really like Thinkpads, but question this "feature", unless it is a business-oriented security feature, as so many Thinkpads are used in business environments.

At least I know that others have heard these caveats, as the poster previous to you stated.

#27 Post by **RealBlackStuff** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:24 pm

I take all my images from any HD via my Apricorn onto my Desktop's hard disk(s). Acronis is also installed on my Desktop.
Restoring is the same, with Acronis from my Desktop, via Apricorn onto whatever HD.
I just restore images, never clone.
All the 'image-restored' HDs work in the Thinkpad, as long as the image was made from a Thinkpad to begin with.

taichi · #28 Post by **taichi** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:57 pm

So I can install Acronis on my T60P and image onto an external USB Drive, either my Apricorn or a dedicated backup drive. The only drawback is that I have to restore onto my machine...or onto another T60P?

#29 Post by **RealBlackStuff** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:51 pm

Read my post again!
You can restore an Acronis image to ANYwhere.

taichi · #30 Post by **taichi** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:49 pm

I reread your post, RBS, and now see that you are saying that the Thinkpad image can be restored to any Thinkpad.

I took from your clarifying second post (hopefully correctly) that the Thinkpad image can be otherwise restored onto any other Windows computer.

Have you ever used Rebit software?

Thanks

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