Thinkpads Forum

This t60 I have is the fastest computer that I own.

I'm just wondering for those with 'modern' laptops, is your websurfing experience any clicky faster?

I'm wondering what I'm missing out on....

Depends on what you're using it for. If you're just using yours for typing up documents, viewing pictures, videos, internet, email, just the basic stuff, then even the low-end Intel-graphics Thinkpad T60 can keep up with the typical modern laptop. T60s are also really nice to operate if they're well kept, not abused, or loaded with adware or years of installing/uninstalling programs. Any T60 with a fresh Windows 7 install will work spectacularly well.

However-if you do anything even slightly more advanced, such as viewing HD video, editing video, animation, Photoshop or other image editing, and especially CAD application and gaming, the T60 and it's performance variant are squashed like bugs by any laptop bearing a CPU past the first-gen Core i-series.(Core i5, Core i7)

Worth noting-if someone wants a nice machine for college/high school/basic needs, web browsing, word processing, etc., or just an inexpensive solution in general, I would STRONGLY recommend getting something like a T60/T60p, widescreen T61, Intel-based T500 or similar. I wouldn't want them to buy a crappy $250-$300 Celeron laptop, or a tablet.

Is there such thing as a 'modern' celeron? that's better than a C2D or CD?

T60's have broken the $100 barrier these days so relative to newer computers, they may have run their life.

Watching hd video with my x1300 card works fine 'enough'

The only thing that annoys me is that watching youtube and clicking around the progress bar doesn't get me the zippy feel that I'd like.

Other than that, everything seems ok. Video editing with a basic editor works well too.

Encoding takes a bit longer, but I don't need to sit around to do anything involved with that.

I don't think there's been any laptop Celeron processors VERY recently, Sandy-Bridge was the last generation of Intel CPUs to have a mobile Celeron line. I think they vaguely outperform the Core 2 Duo you find in the T60 currently, but in my opinion-having a Core 2 Duo versus having a newer Celeron, even now, is better in the long run. Because unlike the Celerons, Core 2 Duos are made from the start to be performance processors, so they'll be able to deal with newer standards better than even modern entry-level hardware.

T60s, in the broad scheme of the computing world, have run their course, but because they were built from the very start to be supremely engineered, super-dependable, and a true performance machine, unlike modern laptops which are only made to last a couple of years, that's why I prefer to have a friend buy a T60 than pick up a $300 HP.

The ATI X1300 is pretty good, it's much better than Intel-graphics. It's a whole lot nicer to have a computer with dedicated video than integrated, and almost all modern laptops that can be had for under $500 feature integrated graphics (although, modern integrated graphics, especially Intel, can be quite good.)

If you really wanted something much more snappy and on-it's-feet, then I'd just wait to save a neat pool of money to buy a modern Thinkpad, or just a bit newer than your T60. You can easily pick up a T500 or T420, etc., you can do some research. However, you'd lose the luxury of a 4:3 screen. But your current laptop will do you just fine for some time. Your T60 may not be the most brisk machine you could have, but it's not struggling or intolerably out of date. It's not a bad machine to be stuck with either

Before I move onto another machine. Maybe a t61 if I feel comfortable with the GPU issue.

I would get a SSD first and make the slow transition to W7.

I still like the thinkvantage button and the ability to restore my drive easily to a stock configuration. Saves hours of time.

Yes I could use a HD imaging program, but doing it by thinkvantage is pretty intuitive for me.

If you get/install an SSD in your T60 now and put W7 on it, you won't want another laptop for quite a while!
And Acronis True Image is forever on special sale, if you look around enough.
Reinstalling an older OS like XP from a recovery partition is a waste of time and HD-space.

Skip the aged W7 and go straight for a upgrade for W8, which can be had quite cheap using MS campaigns.
Runs like a charm, boots in 15 secs

Well, it sounds like our OP here might have Windows XP... making the leap from Windows XP to Windows 8 is pretty daft. I'm certain some people will be up for it, but most power users or traditional Windows users will be far better off with using Windows 7. I still use Windows 7 on my X60 SXGA+ Tablet, and on my Sager laptop, even though I purchased Windows 8 copies for both.

And indeed-with an SSD, it won't really matter. As long as it's a proper SSD(a $100+ Samsung or Intel) and not some stupid OCZ/Kingston 64GB off ebay, both Windows 8 and Windows 7 will fly on a T60, especially those with ATI graphics and a T7200/T7400/T7600 Core 2 Duo. And further going off RBS-don't reinstall or re-use Windows XP. XP's too old, it'll get easily messed up and cluttered from web browsing, and it's rapidly falling behind with the web standards and applications. If you ever upgrade, go with Windows 7 or 8.

To the OP-as I mentioned, there's no need for you to worry now, you definitely have time to plan out your upgrade, or set aside the money. From there you can decide if you want to put an SSD and a fresh Windows install in your T60 to enjoy it a bit longer, or get another laptop. Either way, we'll be able to help you, if you have any other questions.

Medessec wrote:As long as it's a proper SSD(a $100+ Samsung or Intel) and not some stupid OCZ/Kingston 64GB off ebay, both Windows 8 and Windows 7 will fly on a T60

Care to defend that statement?

I have SSDs on my two T60p machines and my X61. At least one of 'em is a Kingston 64GB, although I don't think it came from eBay. Given the SATA 1 speeds (alas) of the T60, the disks are loafing through life but it has made a nice difference in the machines perceived speed. I'm content, even if my desktop machine will blow the proverbial pants off these great laptops.

The big limitation to me is now the 3GB memory limitation of the T60p. I happen to need to run fairly sophisticated mainframe emulation software on one of the machines, and the memory limit has sometimes prevented the software from even initiating. But it's worth it to me to have 1050 and 1200 vertical pixels and not to have some arguably-stupid 16:9 widescreen atrocity.

Art

ArtShapiro wrote:But it's worth it to me to have 1050 and 1200 vertical pixels and not to have some arguably-stupid 16:9 widescreen atrocity.

Art

A-men brother, A-men! I strongly dislike short-screens.

Care to defend that statement?

The first SSD I purchased was an OCZ Vertex 2 60GB, for $35. In fact, I still have that same SSD in my X60 SXGA+ Tablet right now. I knew it wouldn't have blistering speed or performance, and I was right... the machine doesn't feel any snappier than other X60Ts I have that use their original Hitachi 80GB HDDs. Nor do the read/write speeds improve dramatically. I mostly bought it for the low power consumption and reliability. An Intel 160GB I bought for $100 replaced the 60GB OCZ in my Sager laptop as the boot drive(because 60GB isn't enough space anyways) and my god... I should've done it a long time ago.

I think the reason yours works is because you were actually intelligent with where you bought it... I just bought the cheapest thing I could find. What I got was probably an early model with speed issues or heat issues, defects, etc.

Just goes to show-if you do plan to buy an SSD for your T60, don't skip out on the cost. Yes, the T60 only has SATA 1, but you can always take the SSD out of your T60 and put it in a T61, T500, or whatever newer Thinkpad whenever you get it.

fefrie wrote:This t60 I have is the fastest computer that I own. I'm just wondering for those with 'modern' laptops, is your websurfing experience any clicky faster? I'm wondering what I'm missing out on....

It's often said that for web surfing, old computers like the T60 are fine, but "fine" just means tolerable and there's actually a huge difference between them and more modern machines. I have a wide range of computers in terms of age and power, from Pentium III to 3rd-gen Core i7, and the difference in the speed of web surfing is huge, even between Core2 Quad and Core i7-3770, let alone Core Duo (which the T60 has) versus Core i7-3770. I would say you are definitely missing out, though it's up to you whether it's worth spending money to speed up your internet connection. Upgrading to an SSD and Windows 7/8 would help, and I did exactly that to my Panasonic Toughbook CF-Y7 (Core2 Duo L7500, 2GB DDR2 RAM, 256GB Crucial M4 SSD, Windows 8 ), but that's still not as good as a "modern" computer.

I too used to believe in trailing-edge technologies but not any more. I still have some old computers (e.g. all my laptops are Core2 Duo or older) but I don't use these often. My three main computers are all desktops, with Core i3-3220, Core i7-2600, and Core i7-3770. If you are holding on to old computers because of their 4:3 screens or sentimental values, I understand, but if the reason is to save just a couple hundred dollars, I don't think it's worthwhile.

pianowizard wrote:I too used to believe in trailing-edge technologies but not any more. I still have some old computers (e.g. all my laptops are Core2 Duo or older) but I don't use these often. My three main computers are all desktops, with Core i3-3220, Core i7-2600, and Core i7-3770.

Awesome! Until I read that I was quite happy with my T60 (T7400 Core2Duo - 2.16GHz / 4MB L2 with 3GB RAM running a Seagate Momentus XT hybrid HDD - 750GB @ 7,200rpm with 8GB Intel SLC NAND) and my 2008 home-built desktop (QX9650 Core2Quad Extreme - 3GHz / 12MB L2 - overclocked to 3.8GHz / 1600 FSB with 8GB RAM).

There is no question there is a very big difference. Even though my desktop machine is a i5-3570K with 16GB RAM and SSD, I still use my T61p more than anything else, and that only has a T7700 and 2GB RAM and a 5400RPM HD. It is not fast but it is tolerable. If I try to do too much on it, it will become painfully sluggish. Even an AMD E2 APU found in a cheap netbook will likely outperform a T7700 in most tasks.

I run a ramdisk at the moment, and it works 'faster' but I do know the limitations of having it run alongside a standard hdd.

At the moment, I"m looking to upgrade to wireless N, after that maybe a ssd since I now have a W7 liscense.

The ssd is in the roadmap.

Hi! Mine is aT60 63717-74U Intel Core 2 cpu T5500 1.66ghz ,3gb ram 32 bit . Mobile Intel (R)945 chipset 256 memory.
I have added Win 7 Home Premium,Samsung 830 ssd.
Am I maxed out or is a T7200 upgrade worth doing? (which one)
Thanks!

You will have a small improvement upgrading your CPU. If you can source a nice CPU replacement cheaply and don't plan to upgrade your laptop anytime soon then yes go for it.

I may be a little biased since i own three T60s that were upgraded to T7200, but they could now be had for $20-25 after shipping all day long on ebay. I think it's worthwhile.

All 3 previously had T2400(Core Duo 1.83).

db130 wrote:I may be a little biased since i own three T60s that were upgraded to T7200, but they could now be had for $20-25 after shipping all day long on ebay. I think it's worthwhile.

All 3 previously had T2400(Core Duo 1.83).

Any noticeable youtube zip?

I dissent from the opinion that a Core I(x) CPU is required for snappy performance. From my experience with the X61s with 8GB of RAM and a fast disk, the CPU does not appear to be a problem. The main problem with the T60 is that it won't take more than 4GB of RAM. But with Windows 8, 4GB might be enough.

Some popular programs, such as Google Earth, now require more than 64MB of video RAM. The ATI switchable graphics is required to render full HD. The integrated Intel graphics won't do it.

I am sticking with the older machines because of the screen aspect ratio issue, and the color of Lenovo screens, which are these days too "blue." See
http://www.naasln.org/documents/article ... _light.pdf

Because modern Lenovo screens cause me actual retinal pain, I would have to look elsewhere for a modern laptop.

precip9, I know what you're talking about regarding modern displays being too "blue". I hope you are already aware of the freeware program f.lux. Even if you are, you can get UVEX brand safety goggles on Amazon for $6 a piece. They have a design that looks like normal sunglasses and I keep a few pairs around the house. If bright flat screens are hurting my eyes I just put them on and it really helps...

---

As has been stated, it really depends on what you do with your machine. For certain tasks there certainly is no noticeable improvement in upgrading from a C2D to a i*.

There is no question though that, factually speaking, an i series chip is going to be significantly faster at most operations. We must not also forget the importance of the GPU and how that is rapidly causing bottlenecks in older machines. Windows does not use the GPU like Linux or Mac OS X does in order to help with acceleration of general computing, but it is still noticeable when watching hi-def videos, in-browser rendering, etc. This is the reason Apple dropped support of their most recent OS on the older MacBooks which did not have capable enough graphics (if you're not already aware of what i'm referring to, the old Intel GMA graphics in older MacBooks/cheaper ThinkPads of this era are only about as powerful as an ATi Rage, which is really old and not powerful at all. The OS would simply not be able to perform well with GPUs this weak and so support for the older ones are cut. Nowadays, unless you're on XP or never doing anything GPU intensive it's quite difficult to get decent performance out of anything with an Intel GMA that old)

For instance I have a i5 3570K tower for powerful computing. I mainly do audio related work so a lot of encoding and other floating point based operations. Even without a SSD and using the processor's built in graphics which shared system RAM (and only 4GB at that when I first built the machine) it tore through encoding/audio work many times faster than my T61p with a T7700 could ever hope to compete against.

Even though I have a machine to do all my power-hungry stuff, I still do audio related work on my T61p but it really is much, much slower. However most of the time when I'm on my laptop I'm not doing stuff like that... I probably have Firefox, foobar2000, PuTTy, email and a couple other things running. Even with 2GB RAM and a 5400RPM HD the T61p is just fine for most of these operations. Again, I will use things like Traktor or Reason or Reaper on my T61p, but I really will avoid doing real work such as applying effects/modifying a whole waveform because the wait time of 1 minute+ to wait for it to complete an operation is an eternity compared to my i5 which can do the same thing in 10 seconds max. With something like Traktor everything works fine but I just need to have more patience with it starting up and loading my tracks in.

I wouldn't try and run Windows 7 on it unless I had at least 4GB and a SSD though. It would just be a painful experience then.

banhammer420k,
We're pretty close. In particular, video editing is really inaccessible to older laptops, even my W500 with a T9900 CPU. Modern programs accelerate using specific, recent Nvidia hardware, for which no CPU can hope to substitute by itself. Since you are a big effects user, you also want the fastest CPU you can find, though video performance is less of an issue. But I have done basic automation/editing with Cubase 4 and a Centrino single-core, so it depends upon the particular type of sound work.

As an example of what a fast Core 2 Duo processor can do, a T9900, at 3.06 gHz, renders 1080p from a tuner stick while using only 1/6 of the CPU budget. My experience is that most of the blame for a machine that seems sluggish in general use is due to lack of RAM and a slow disk.

Pardon me if I take your suggestion of goggles with some amusement. Sony has a nice color balance to their screens, which I now experience with an Xperia Z tablet. The balance is quite similar to that of older Lenovo screens. Some people complain that the screen is too warm, but some users, unaware of the blue light hazard, get a psychological high from a strong blue tinge. Scientific studies have indicated that blue light stimulates the brain:

http://www.dailygazette.net/standard/Sh ... n=National

But I prefer not to increase my risk of macular degeneration. In my opinon, the big drawback of the modern Lenovo product is the screen. The shape is wrong. The color is wrong. The packaging is wrong.

banhammer420k wrote:precip9, I know what you're talking about regarding modern displays being too "blue". I hope you are already aware of the freeware program f.lux.

<much snipping>

banhammer420k, thank you so much for mentioning this programme! I recently replaced the SXGA+ FlexView display in my main computer, a 15" T60, with a new UXGA IPS display. I found the cooler colour temp of the new display rather.... upsetting. Especially when first fitted. The programmes and utilities that were suggested to me - or that I found to try to fix the issue were all very complicated (I'm a hardware man, software is most certainly not my forte).

So, after a while I just got used to it. I only noticed the difference when going from my laptop to the desktop or to another of my collection of ThinkPads. However I saw your post, downloaded f.lux (I'm still mainly using Win XP - dual booting with 7 but hardly using 7), clicked the exe and... Wow!

Job done! I changed the day / night change to be small as that's not my issue but just dragging the slider down a bit for the daytime setting has fixed the issue I had with this display.

Thanks.

^^^ Glad to help! I for one really love it. It really helps with the extra radiant "blueness". I even have a f.lux like program on my Android phone ^^^^


True, but let's not forget processor efficiency! That's why lower clock speeds on modern chips can deliver much better results. Lack of RAM and a slow disk are definitely bottlenecks but even if it's only using 1/6 of the CPU that doesn't mean a Sandy/Ivy Bridge chip working at 1/6 of the CPU's capabilities isn't way faster

Certainly high cpu power isn't necessary for everything... I have a 466MHz PowerBook G4 I use in my Studio running a softsynth and patch librarian. It handles those tasks just fine and just as snappy as any i* series. But, you know, try mastering a tracking on a 466MHz G4... you'll be sitting there all day waiting for it to process data! Actually, to be honest I will do a lot of editing and mastering on a T42 because I found with some of my hardware it performs better with a single core processor than a dual core, but that's neither here nor there, because I still record with 13~ year old audio interface... but you know, if I have to lay on a bunch of effects during the mastering process, or convert tons of audio files, I will be doing that on my powerful machine, not the Pentium M!

No worries about the goggles thing. It's less that the actual color of the screen bothers me and more that I tend to be very sensitive to bright lights and high frequency sounds, so I like to "soften" all the light around me, didn't know if that was the case with you too or if the actual color was irritating you

Personally I'm just waiting on those Chinese T4* replacement boards that take Sandy/Ivy Bridge chips and then I can have the best of all worlds.

banhammer420k wrote:^^^ Glad to help! I for one really love it. It really helps with the extra radiant "blueness". I even have a f.lux like program on my Android phone ^^^^

That's exactly what I'm using it for - to tone down the 'blueness' of this otherwise excellent display.

banhammer420k wrote:True, but let's not forget processor efficiency! That's why lower clock speeds on modern chips can deliver much better results. Lack of RAM and a slow disk are definitely bottlenecks but even if it's only using 1/6 of the CPU that doesn't mean a Sandy/Ivy Bridge chip working at 1/6 of the CPU's capabilities isn't way faster

Oh, very true. However I'm extremely financially constrained so have to make-do with what I have.

<snipped>

banhammer420k wrote:It's less that the actual color of the screen bothers me and more that I tend to be very sensitive to bright lights and high frequency sounds, so I like to "soften" all the light around me, didn't know if that was the case with you too or if the actual color was irritating you

I actually light my house with 'daylight' or even 'cool white' LED lamps. (I find that all of the 'warm white' lamps I've tried are too yellow.) However with the laptop display, where I'm looking at emitted light rather than reflected light, the high colour temperature was really off-putting.

banhammer420k wrote:Personally I'm just waiting on those Chinese T4* replacement boards that take Sandy/Ivy Bridge chips and then I can have the best of all worlds.

Excuse me? Are you being serious? Because, if so, I'll start saving up for a couple of those - pronto!

Cheers,

misfit wrote:Excuse me? Are you being serious? Because, if so, I'll start saving up for a couple of those - pronto!

He is being serious...

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=110787

I am actually working on a similar R60 as we speak. I installed an SSD (yes a cheap OCZ) and windows 7 and I am more than happy! I leave my T400 at home and am using this one for working on the road. It's just great for office work: large 4:3 screen, world class keyboard.
It has the x1400 Ati, so I guess that's helping too.
The only disadvantage is when I am playing a youtube music video and open up a new tab, it stutters for a moment.

Thanks everyone for all your replies.

I did eventually upgrade to a SSD. With a 400mb ramdrive, opeining takes 1 minute instead of 3 minutes.

A couple of recent network tweaks included removing the QOS on my home network. Seems like that was also reducing the 'zippiness'

I may revisit QOS, but I've let housemates know to treat the network nicely or we're back on QOS.

I do like the 4:3 sxga aspect. It's an information thing. a 1280x720 screen is just too crowded.

I recently got a 15" 5250 x1400 t60, and the web video does seem to be much less of a problematic issue. Since it's so big, it's strictly a desktop operation.

I though I would stick with a X1300 for a portable/power saving application, but I guess I"m in the market for a 14" 5250 now.

I'm semi lusting after a modern laptop that just flies on the internet, but I just don't like the form factor.

I'll eventually get into a t400 or t500 with a 'standard' keyboard. Hopefully the last one made without a chicklet keyboard. I would like to lean towards the t500. I don't really care about size. Bigger is actually better, but if it weighs more than my t60 now, I would probably move towards the t400